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MikeSevigny posted:Remember when Adrian Dix refused to go negative and he got called pathetic and a wuss and lost his job instead of being called the bright future of provincial politics Weaver has been super negative especially in the last week or two of the campaign. He has become virtually a full-time critic of the NDP and Horgan, whom Weaver insists is very angry and mean spirited and other negative adjectives. Note however that these comments are not to be taken to signify anger or meanspiritedness on Weaver's part. He's the calm rational science man ungoverned by hew-mon emotions.
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May 8, 2017 23:27
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And now here's a former Green campaign manager who says he resigned over Weaver's opportunism and bullying:quote:On the eve of his candidate’s kick-off event, Green Party campaign manager Troy Grant reached his breaking point with Andrew Weaver, causing him to resign. “I can’t support the BC Green Party because of Andrew Weaver,” Grant now admits. Here’s why. Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 23:39 on May 8, 2017 |
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May 8, 2017 23:36
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https://twitter.com/withfilesfrom/status/861710484516614144 Don Plett, of course
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May 8, 2017 23:36
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Oh cool, Jordan "If I have to acknowledge their existence as human beings, would I truly be free?" Peterson has words to say to legislators about the bill he completely misrepresented to his audience.
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May 8, 2017 23:45
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Falstaff posted:Mulcair, as lovely as he was/is, nearly beat Trudeau. His NDP held a lead for quite a while during the election. It was only after the whole balanced budget thing that Trudeau was able to switch tactics and portray himself as the leftiest choice. I've made that exact argument that the balanced budget is when NDP lost the campaign. It was. There's another layer though. The Liberals were waiting for a big mistake and then they went all in on it. NDP fundraised more but Liberals borrowed to ultimately outspend the NDP by ~50% and it started with those endless "NDP is bad at math, look at these scales" ads. The difference wasn't all financial though, Liberals outspent by a large margin on Advertising - other which was instagram/facebook/etc. They spent more money but also way more effectively. So the balanced budget was where NDP screwed up but the same result could have come from a Layton centrist looking NDP policy too. http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=fin&dir=oth/pol/break&document=brk42ge&lang=e infernal machines posted:Oh cool, Jordan "If I have to acknowledge their existence as human beings, would I truly be free?" Peterson has words to say to legislators about the bill he completely misrepresented to his audience. Hey, look at him calling them their.
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May 9, 2017 00:10
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Mulcair's a Quebec lib dropout, of course he wasn't going to be convincing at doing much more than milquetoast centrism.
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May 9, 2017 00:12
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Postess with the Mostest posted:I've made that exact argument that the balanced budget is when NDP lost the campaign. It was. There's another layer though. The Liberals were waiting for a big mistake and then they went all in on it. NDP fundraised more but Liberals borrowed to ultimately outspend the NDP by ~50% and it started with those endless "NDP is bad at math, look at these scales" ads. Yeah, when I heard that statement by Mulcair, I got pretty upset because I knew it was gonna lock the NDP into mutually exclusive positions that would be so easy to attack, and it was such an unnecessary policy to bring forth. The people who get all excited about balanced budgets are not the people who want a strong safety net and government programs that help people.
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May 9, 2017 00:27
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I'm so glad that people like me creep the gently caress out of Jordan Peterson.
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May 9, 2017 00:38
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Hey now, Rex "A Literal Dead Tree Stump" Murphy called him "real professor, at last"
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May 9, 2017 00:43
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vyelkin posted:I do think it pretty amazing that as we come closer to the sci-fi utopia of robots doing all our jobs, we simultaneously come closer to the dystopian vision of a perpetually unemployed underclass. We've managed to take the theoretically benevolent idea of not having to work because a machine can do your job effortlessly and turned it into a thing of nightmares because our economic system is structured to very efficiently funnel all the gains of automation to the wealthy while ruining the lives of those whose jobs are automated. Because we're so wedded to the idea that only working, having a job that you go to every day, makes you worthy of existing as a person. Thanks again for this. I usually pay the most attention to this thread when you, Helsing and Eviljoven post or answer questions like mine. I recognize that we are still fighting battles against things like racial discrimination, bigotry, antisemitism etc. I recognize that these are very serious issues and the should not be taken lightly. However I believe that relative to the greater threats we face as a society right now they are a distraction and a symptom of all the issues we just discussed. I think its fair to say that when we are suffering economically and find our situation dire and miserable we're quick to find the most convenient scapegoats for our issues. You fix the economic problem, give everyone a house with a 2 car garage, enough money left over to pay any sudden emergency expenses, a social safety net and I guarantee that most of the bigotry we're seeing these days will disappear or be greatly reduced and easier to fight. Consider that it was in the most economically prosperous times in the USA that most of its significant social battles were won and back then they SHOT YOU DEAD for protesting that poo poo. The trifecta of climate change, economic inequality and automation will dehumanize, disenfranchise and alienate an enormous chunk of the population of this planet. Technology already makes it possible for countries such as the USA to conduct military operations with force multipliers that far exceed the manpower armies used to need to operate. This trend of technological unemployment is also making it easier for small amounts of people to do more than just produce widgets, it makes mass oppression and subversion possible. The revolutionaries of the future won't be contending with jackboots marching on them and wrecking their poo poo. They'll have to contend with mass surveillance of everything electronic, drones, precision strikes. In most cases you'll be dead without ever having a chance to know you're being attacked or targeted in the first place. The person killing you likely will be doing so dispassionately from the comfort of a trailer or office building somewhere in a defense ministry building. I believe these three challenges are the biggest ones our society will face and the ones that somehow need to get addressed. But any optimism I had that we will do these things is gone. The right continues to double down, the neoliberals are doubling down and regardless of who is in power, the rich get richer. I believe that the new generation of politicians will likely be similar to Donald Trump. I think they will say things the current political elite can't or won't say. But they will only say it. At the end of the day they are bought and paid for by the billionaire class and they will continue to entrench and enrich these interests. I don't believe that what is "Right" will prevail unless it is economically and politically convenient to the interests of the wealthy. I don't know if the current millennial generation will face this or if their kids will but I believe we will very quickly be reintroduced to how utterly hosed up and deplorable human nature can be as we descend back into feudalism.
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May 9, 2017 01:08
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DariusLikewise posted:Brian Pallister We've long been out of pork now so it doesn't make a difference to our farm whether they ban them out or not, but I was under the impression hog runoff accounted for a small percentage of the runoff into Lake Winnipeg TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 01:12 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 01:10
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On the bright side, Kraftwerk, we do have examples of better ways to organize our society. And I don't mean the USSR, I mean Sweden, who has more or less maintained their high-tax, high-spending, high-intervention welfare state even through the recent years of austerity. And they've even done it while delivering balanced budgets and high economic growth (for OECD countries anyway). Even Bloomberg takes notice of it and they're usually very pro-business. I'm not necessarily hopeful for the future, but I do see a legitimate alternative and that is social democracy. I don't have a ton of time to go into the details of it right now, and I wouldn't necessarily say I think it will save the world (for my money the biggest threat the world faces is that we do nothing about climate change for so long that the cost of fighting it becomes so high that we simply can't solve it anymore), but it is possible to exist within our globalized, technologized world and still have a relatively secure, equal, and prosperous country. It requires difficult reforms (not everybody is a fan of flexicurity and a strong welfare state) and there is a constant danger of the right-wing coming to power and destroying it all, but it is possible to walk that line as long as you have a culture and a society that actually values things like equality and human dignity.
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May 9, 2017 01:19
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vyelkin posted:
It's a good post! I'd say that in terms of left wing political power, one of the big changes that you touched on but I think deserves a bit more atteniton is how union power was broken in many countries in the 80s with the rise of neo-conservatism (and perhaps even before that point). Being able to cut wages in order to maintain profits was an important safety valve for capitalists that they no longer had access to with the power of unions, so breaking unions became an important strategy governments could use to help struggling industries. Unions represented one of the key constituents for left-wing parties in many countries, and with their decreasing influence, left-wing parties looked elsewhere for support. In Canada they found it in other institutions like universities and the professional urban class. Keep in mind that every country's political parties emerged in different circumstances. So for example, prairie populism helped nurture the nascent left-wing in Canada in the face of strong anti-communist laws and a federal government and police service hostile to left-wing political power.
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May 9, 2017 01:46
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vyelkin posted:On the bright side, Kraftwerk, we do have examples of better ways to organize our society. And I don't mean the USSR, I mean Sweden, who has more or less maintained their high-tax, high-spending, high-intervention welfare state even through the recent years of austerity. And they've even done it while delivering balanced budgets and high economic growth (for OECD countries anyway). Even Bloomberg takes notice of it and they're usually very pro-business. I'm not necessarily hopeful for the future, but I do see a legitimate alternative and that is social democracy. I don't have a ton of time to go into the details of it right now, and I wouldn't necessarily say I think it will save the world (for my money the biggest threat the world faces is that we do nothing about climate change for so long that the cost of fighting it becomes so high that we simply can't solve it anymore), but it is possible to exist within our globalized, technologized world and still have a relatively secure, equal, and prosperous country. It requires difficult reforms (not everybody is a fan of flexicurity and a strong welfare state) and there is a constant danger of the right-wing coming to power and destroying it all, but it is possible to walk that line as long as you have a culture and a society that actually values things like equality and human dignity. The problem is Sweden is a society with a culture of civic duty. I don't think we have that here in North America. It's about individual effort for self interest or the interests of your family, friends and ethnic enclave.
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May 9, 2017 02:06
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Is this where we start seeing anecdotes about the value of cultural homogeneity?
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May 9, 2017 02:34
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infernal machines posted:Is this where we start seeing anecdotes about the value of cultural homogeneity? Sorry to disappoint you. I'm not interested in attacking any particular ethnic group or trying to springboard this discussion towards how we should shut out immigrants or let the "Right" immigrants in. That's not my point. My point is that everyone pursues their own self interest and will do so at the expense of society as a whole. You'd need to engage in some serious social engineering to build cohesion outside of the identity politics that dominate us here on racial, economic, gender and orientation lines. It's divide and conquer. Our current political battles are gays vs straights, blacks vs whites, christians vs muslims, jews vs everyone else. Immigrants vs old stock Canadians. It's easy, it feels good. It's nice to feel like you're part of your own little group and to feel like you can organize together to fight the other group. We are a tribal species. We get together in internet echo chambers like these ones and convince ourselves that the rest of the world is just like us. We're tribal, that's who we are and it'll take some serious enlightenment and mental discipline on a massive scale to overcome that and do the work that needs to be done to fix the mess we found ourselves in. It's much harder to discipline all these groups are a equally disadvantaged by economic inequality to band together and come after the people who are REALLY screwing them. Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 02:43 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 02:38
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I wasn't accusing you of anything, I was asking a rhetorical question because this is the point where some other posters would be expected to jump in with tales of the failure of diversity and the importance of cultural homogeneity. For example, based on the premise that first generation immigrants tend to be less trusting of government and institutions. Also, ethnic diversity is one thing Sweden does not a appear to have an abundance of. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 02:50 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 02:46
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infernal machines posted:I wasn't accusing you of anything, I was asking a rhetorical question because this is the point where some other posters would be expected to jump in with tales of the failure of diversity and the importance of cultural homogeneity. This is somewhat true, but getting less so all the time. Just doing some quick Wiki-ing, it looks like around 20% of Sweden is either foreign-born or born to two foreign-born parents, with the largest groups (after Finland) coming from countries that you might expect discrimination against, like Iraq, Poland, Syria, Former Yugoslavia, Turkey, Iran. When I lived there I was in an immigrant neighbourhood of mostly Middle-Eastern and Turkish people. And while I would say it has harmed social cohesion to a degree (it gave Swedish Nazis something to organize around) on the whole it seems like Swedish civic culture has adapted to having a more multicultural society just fine.
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May 9, 2017 03:13
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I dont particularly enjoy the fact that being bi automatically politicizes my existence. It's not all fun and good times being an obligate member of a "tribe" that I don't particularly love any more than other humans. It's about survival not fighting straights for le epic keks
Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 03:36 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 03:20
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Dreylad posted:It's a good post! I'd say that in terms of left wing political power, one of the big changes that you touched on but I think deserves a bit more atteniton is how union power was broken in many countries in the 80s with the rise of neo-conservatism (and perhaps even before that point). Being able to cut wages in order to maintain profits was an important safety valve for capitalists that they no longer had access to with the power of unions, so breaking unions became an important strategy governments could use to help struggling industries. I agree with this completely. The decline of, and active hostility to, unions has gotten absolutely terrible. You see it much worse in the US than in Canada, just look at union members voting for Trump, knowing full well that he was going to appoint a Supreme Court Justice who would probably institutionalize right-to-work across the entire country, just because he actually bothered to come to their towns and pretend he cared about them. Because the left has abandoned unions and unionized industries almost completely. Again, that's worse in the US than in Canada. We always had higher union penetration and we still do, and despite its recent centrist turn the NDP remains much more openly pro-union than the Democratic Party. But you're absolutely right that the decline of unions thanks to a mix of open attacks by the right, being abandoned by the left, and free trade/removing restrictions on capital/globalization/automation just plain destroying a lot of unionized jobs and industries, combined of course with the fact that new industries don't unionize (I'd love to see Silicon Valley tech workers unionize), has been disastrous for the left. Identity politics just doesn't fill the gap that union loyalty and mobilization used to, and pro-union policies used to inject at least a little bit of economic populism into left-wing platforms that are now dominated by targeted giveaways to upper middle class groups.
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May 9, 2017 03:33
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THC posted:I dont particularly enjoy the fact that being bi automatically politicizes my existence. It's not all fun and good times being an obligate member of a "tribe" that I don't particularly love any more than other humans. It's about survival not fighting straights for le epic keks Why do you identify as bi instead of pansexual? Tradition? Rejection of gender spectrum theory? It seems like an exclusionary term in 2017. I'm sticking with bi as well, honestly pansexual just sounds super gay, bi has a nice ring to it.
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May 9, 2017 03:49
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This is probably bad post turf but I think pansexual is "open to engaging sexually with any sort of human at all" while bi is more "open to engaging sexually with traditional male or female humans".
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May 9, 2017 04:40
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I'm not straight but not totally gay so it gets the point across well enough I guess
Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 04:50 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 04:45
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Bi and pan are more or less synonymous, bi is just less explaining. Also Gad Saad is definitely more worrisome because he acts like he has science on his side rather than god (probably because he's not a WASP like Peterson) and imo that's a lot more insidious as a way to hide your prejudices. Also the guy is a massive self-promoter. Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 05:16 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 04:54
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Hey it's the BC election tomorrow guys! So it's neck and neck so the NDP will likely lose, though apparently early voting numbers have been quite high, which is bad news for the incumbent right? If the BC NDP do lose I think one of the main reasons will be that somehow the party managed to craft a platform of ideas that are pretty decent once you mull them over, but which unfortunately sound absolutely braindead awful in radio soundbite form. For example you have the $400 renters rebate. This is a reasonable policy designed to even things up between homeowners, which receive a $570 homeowners grant, and renters, which receive nothing. Unfortunately only wonky economists seem to understand the merits of this concept, because all I've heard and read from friends and commenters on the internet is that this is a dumb policy and $33/month isn't going to do anything to make spiking rent affordable and the NDP are idiots. No one understands this policy. Total communication failure. Another example is the notion of doing away with tolls. There's a lot of problems with the way tolls are implemented in Metro Vancouver in that they're implemented unevenly, only on new bridges. This means some people can divert to another bridge which overloads it and the whole system is inefficient. All this means that even though we should have some congestion charge in the long term, there's merit to the idea to ditching tolls and coming up with a different solution to deal with congestion. None of this matters however, because the whole idea sounds like a dumb promise designed purely to appeal to people living in the Fraser Valley ridings the NDP need to win to form a government. The first thing that comes to mind for some people is how much their taxes will be raised to pay for these bridges that were supposed to be paid for by tolls. Other people wonder how on earth congestion will be kept under control without road pricing, and they gravitate toward the Greens. The NDP completely blew it with how they communicated this idea. Hopefully those few ridings will be worth it. How about ferries! A topic the NDP should know better to loving stay the gently caress away from. Ok this is an idea that's straight up terrible. They've promised to bring back free ferry rides for seniors, ignoring the fact that it's possible for seniors to be rather well off and not need a free ride. This is a garbage idea that is immediately unappealing to a great deal of people. This again raises the stereotype that the NDP is overly populist and bad with money. All of this reinforces the framing that the NDP are a bunch of populist idiots that don't know anything about the economy and will run the province into the ground if they get ahold of government. The BC NDP needs to get a better grasp of which policies belong in an election campaign and which don't and they badly need to work on how they communicate their ideas. Femtosecond fucked around with this message at 06:48 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 06:45
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The NDP has run the vast majority of this campaign running on health care, affordable housing, and the general awfulness of Christy Clark, all of which is fine, and they've certainly done a better job this year than last election or... well, pretty much any other election in my memory. Although that's a low bar to clear. The narrative, however, has been all about the Greens and what a breath of fresh air they are and how Andrew Weaver is a force to be reckoned with, since the NDP and Liberals are equally bad if you really think about it. This is a all completely organic and genuine, and just because every newspaper immediately and almost unreservedly endorsed the Liberals after a month of fawning over the Greens doesn't mean you should doubt their political clout. I'm not sure what good "communicating better" does when the message is filtered through an entirely hostile lens. The thing I've seen Horgan take the most heat for the last couple weeks hasn't been renters or tolls or ferries, but the idea that he might secretly be planning to raise taxes on everyone after the election because he's NDP and he loves taxes. I mean, if policies and how you communicate them mattered, how did the Greens keep being taken seriously when they didn't even release their platform until two weeks in? edit: Since I typed all that in the past tense and the election is, technically, not over yet: the Greens almost always underperform their polling. I think they've become normalized enough here that people aren't going to be scared off, plus half the province already voted a week ago, from the looks of it. If it does, then the NDP will probably pull it off because I don't think any disillusioned Liberal voters are going to drift all the way to the NDP at the last second. MikeSevigny fucked around with this message at 07:43 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 07:36
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I bet the greens gain zero seats
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May 9, 2017 07:57
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THC posted:I bet the greens gain zero seats I thought they had Gary Holman's seat in Sidney locked up, but it looks like the NDP has pushed back and, uh, it might go Liberal. The nice thing is, if they do blow it, Weaver promised he'd quit as leader, and he's a paragon of honesty and integrity so you know he'll do it.
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May 9, 2017 08:07
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I look forward to a Liberal majority based on a 40/30/30 split, and British Columbians learning absolutely nothing from this.
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May 9, 2017 13:08
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The BCNDP cannot fail, it can only be failed by the voters so many of you clearly despise.
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May 9, 2017 13:15
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And God said to Noah there's going to be a flood-y flood-y.
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May 9, 2017 13:19
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Kraftwerk posted:Thanks again for this. I usually pay the most attention to this thread when you, Helsing and Eviljoven post or answer questions like mine. Please please take everything I say with a massive grain of salt because I am often deliberately obtuse in part because it's cathartic, in part because it's funny to me to poo poo post and in part because I am kinda broke brained in some ways. That being said, it is true that social issues are much easier to address and people are less prone to turn in inwards toward regressive tribalistic tendencies than when they are worried about why they can't seem to provide for themselves in a world of such abundance as ours.
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May 9, 2017 14:22
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The amount of whinging dippers do because the 10% of actual voters who vote green, presumably because the NDP isn't their first choice, won't listen to their clearly superior superior logic, while ignoring the 45% of non-voters is pretty lol.
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May 9, 2017 14:31
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EvilJoven posted:That being said, it is true that social issues are much easier to address and people are less prone to turn in inwards toward regressive tribalistic tendencies than when they are worried about why they can't seem to provide for themselves in a world of such abundance as ours. Hey, that's the same thing #1 Canadian Justin Trudeau said. This diversity bullshit only works when the people making 90k-200k are fat and happy so we better focus squarely on them. quote:http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2015/11/26/diversity-canadas-strength
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May 9, 2017 14:45
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/cottage-owners-ontario-disaster-relief-1.4105469quote:Cottage owners angry about being shut out of Ontario disaster relief fund quote:Some cottage owners whose properties have been damaged by the flooding in eastern Ontario are angry they don't qualify for provincial disaster relief funding. lmao what are the odds that this is a "low taxes conservative" voter
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May 9, 2017 14:45
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Postess with the Mostest posted:Hey, that's the same thing #1 Canadian Justin Trudeau said. This diversity bullshit only works when the people making 90k-200k are fat and happy so we better focus squarely on them. As you say, the best conservative Prime Minister we've ever had.
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May 9, 2017 14:50
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Postess with the Mostest posted:Hey, that's the same thing #1 Canadian Justin Trudeau said. This diversity bullshit only works when the people making 90k-200k are fat and happy so we better focus squarely on them. Beauty at any size, I'm already on a diet you monster 
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May 9, 2017 14:51
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Postess with the Mostest posted:Hey, that's the same thing #1 Canadian Justin Trudeau said. This diversity bullshit only works when the people making 90k-200k are fat and happy so we better focus squarely on them. Of course the Liberals would do this.Actually helping the poor out of poverty costs too much and doesn't bring in campaign contributions like pandering to the privileged. It's much better to make the rich feel good about themselves by appearing to be progressive without actually doing anything. Edit: forgot a word EvilJoven fucked around with this message at 16:54 on May 9, 2017 |
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May 9, 2017 15:19
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The BC Liberals election platform is a mad lib book with JOBS in every blank. What's the maximum chaos result for the election? 42 Liberal, 41 NDP, 2 Green?
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May 9, 2017 15:26
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The Liberals Middle Class phrasing has been peak CanPol since so many people earning under 90k believe they are middle class and now have *Feelings* that the government is working for them when really the middle class is maybe ~8% of this country,
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May 9, 2017 15:52
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