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Boxman posted:That rule seems stupid (what's the difference between extra cards in the deck box and extra cards in your pack?) but I'm glad to know about it! Thanks! It's so you can't try to cheat with a 90 card sideboard and play it off as "lol whoops that was just an unrelated deck".
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May 10, 2017 17:04
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Yeah, there's clearly a good intent for the rule. The problem and funny thing that was called out were pros who deliberately wanted to abuse the rule to get free wins.
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May 10, 2017 17:07
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It's interesting which rules come with which default assumptions about intent. Show up to a multi-format tournament with two decks with different-colored sleeves, but didn't read the fine print about approved storage methods? Definitely intent to cheat there, game loss. Forgetting negative triggers, casting cards when you don't have quite the right colors available, letting your own permanents survive wrath effects, and otherwise playing sloppily with the rules in ways that somehow by sheer chance are always strictly beneficial to you? Just an honest mistake every single time, no penalty.
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May 10, 2017 17:22
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Lottery of Babylon posted:It's interesting which rules come with which default assumptions about intent. Show up to a multi-format tournament with two decks with different-colored sleeves, but didn't read the fine print about approved storage methods? Definitely intent to cheat there, game loss. Forgetting negative triggers, casting cards when you don't have quite the right colors available, letting your own permanents survive wrath effects, and otherwise playing sloppily with the rules in ways that somehow by sheer chance are always strictly beneficial to you? Just an honest mistake every single time, no penalty. The "proving malice" line of questioning intent was always pretty wonky. The x-wing community is rightly up in arms because some cheater only got a game loss for cheating on camera at the highest level of play this past weekend while the same infraction happening elsewhere got 5-year or permanent bans.
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May 10, 2017 17:29
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Chill la Chill posted:The "proving malice" line of questioning intent was always pretty wonky. The x-wing community is rightly up in arms because some cheater only got a game loss for cheating on camera at the highest level of play this past weekend while the same infraction happening elsewhere got 5-year or permanent bans. Proving intent as far as cheating is concerned is one of the weakest parts of competitive magic. In the attempt to make the game smoother and bring on less feel bad moments, judging decisions has made cheating a little easier over time. Lets see if we can list all the free ev "mistakes" you can do in your favor that you can use at any pptq. 1. Sneak an extra land a turn every once in a while. 2. Playing tapped lands untapped. 3. Playing cards without having the correct mana. 4. Giving a creature haste that doesn't have haste. 5. Forgetting to exile a card. 6. Not taking damage from your lands that do that. (probably a ton more) Do any of the above to a weak opponent and often they probably won't notice, eve less so if you use a little misdirection Even picking up the pace of play beyond what their comfort zone is does the trick. If they do notice, rarely are these mistakes even reported to a judge they are just "corrected" if you are pleasant to your opponent. Get a warning? Welp, lay off until the next event as there is a good chance the warning isn't even documented.
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May 10, 2017 17:46
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Sickening posted:
Didn't one cheater always ask for the warning to be downgraded so he could keep the poo poo up until he got an actual warning?
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May 10, 2017 17:54
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keratinous scutes posted:Didn't one cheater always ask for the warning to be downgraded so he could keep the poo poo up until he got an actual warning? He asked for the warnings to be downgraded to cautions because if you accumulate a bunch of warnings over several tournaments you get investigated even if you never accumulate enough warnings in one tournament to get an escalated punishment. ThePeavstenator fucked around with this message at 18:06 on May 10, 2017 |
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May 10, 2017 17:55
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keratinous scutes posted:Didn't one cheater always ask for the warning to be downgraded so he could keep the poo poo up until he got an actual warning? Yep, alex had this on autopilot.
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May 10, 2017 17:56
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Proving intent has nothing to do with game losses. If you purposefully infringe the rules that's pretty much a dq without prize on the spot. These rules, as they exist, are mostly there to discourage any nonsense like this happening accidentally. And the rules now are way way softer than the used to be. I used to judge in the early 2000s and some of the stuff back then was downright draconic compared to what it's like now. I'm phone posting now but if anyone cares I have some stories about how we forced a guy to play a 107 card sealed deck, amongst other things.
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May 10, 2017 17:56
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Most things are just play mistakes. Youre not there to be judge dredd. Not every body is MODO incarnate.
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May 10, 2017 17:58
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Lone Goat posted:Proving intent has nothing to do with game losses. If you purposefully infringe the rules that's pretty much a dq without prize on the spot. It's also not necessary. This isn't a court of law, it's a children's card game. A judge can DQ someone without proving anything.
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May 10, 2017 18:03
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mailorder bees! posted:Most things are just play mistakes. Youre not there to be judge dredd. Not every body is MODO incarnate. Agreed but once you get to PTQ/GP level tournaments it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect players to know what the cards in their deck do, know the rules, comply with tournament rules, etc. e: If I accidentally play a second land at a GP it shouldn't be on my opponent to recognize it before play continues too far and they lose the chance to undo the problem. ThePeavstenator fucked around with this message at 18:07 on May 10, 2017 |
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May 10, 2017 18:04
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ThePeavstenator posted:Agreed but once you get to PTQ/GP level tournaments it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect players to know what the cards in their deck do, know the rules, comply with tournament rules, etc. and thats what the ipg is for.
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May 10, 2017 18:05
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ThePeavstenator posted:Agreed but once you get to PTQ/GP level tournaments it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect players to know what the cards in their deck do, know the rules, comply with tournament rules, etc. That is the biggest pet peeve of mine. Its your turn 6 and you have 8 lands in play. Welp, I guess there is nothing we can do. Opponents fault he missed you sneaking them in or put faith in you playing one land a turn, nothing can be done to fix it. Yes, there is plenty that can't be undone. There is however more that can be done in comp rel for these "oopsies".
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May 10, 2017 18:11
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what happens in your game is YOUR responsibility.
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May 10, 2017 18:14
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mailorder bees! posted:what happens in your game is YOUR responsibility. This isn't exactly true if someone else is control over the penalties. I get where you are attempting to go with this great post of yours, but this issue isn't black and white.
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May 10, 2017 18:18
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Extra land? Thats a dq. Drew a card? Dq. Played a bad deck? Dq
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May 10, 2017 18:19
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mailorder bees! posted:Extra land? Thats a dq. Drew a card? Dq. Played a bad deck? Dq I think there is somewhere in the middle that might also work.
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May 10, 2017 18:20
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Sickening posted:This isn't exactly true if someone else is control over the penalties. I get where you are attempting to go with this great post of yours, but this issue isn't black and white. most players arent nearly so whiny about it
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May 10, 2017 18:25
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In the words of 'Big' John McCarthy, "protect yourself at all times".
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May 10, 2017 18:27
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ThePeavstenator posted:Agreed but once you get to PTQ/GP level tournaments it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect players to know what the cards in their deck do, know the rules, comply with tournament rules, etc. Sometimes people just flat out make silly mistakes because Magic is a complicated game with a lot of moving parts. Back when RTR was newest set, I played a sealed event with this sweet 4 color deck. I cast a Knightly Valor on turn 6, leaving only my Selesnya Guildgate untapped. That would be all well and good, except that Guildgate was my only source of white mana. I had no 1 mana white tricks in my hand(hell, I don't even remember if there were any in the set), I just wanted to leave up as many possibilities as possible. I actually called the judge on myself(because I didn't notice until his turn) in this case and it was a store level event so there were no real consequences, but imagine if instead it was a PTQ and my opponent who noticed on his turn. I would be pretty unhappy if I got DQed or game lossed for something like that.
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May 10, 2017 18:32
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Elyv posted:Sometimes people just flat out make silly mistakes because Magic is a complicated game with a lot of moving parts. Back when RTR was newest set, I played a sealed event with this sweet 4 color deck. I cast a Knightly Valor on turn 6, leaving only my Selesnya Guildgate untapped. That would be all well and good, except that Guildgate was my only source of white mana. I had no 1 mana white tricks in my hand(hell, I don't even remember if there were any in the set), I just wanted to leave up as many possibilities as possible. I actually called the judge on myself(because I didn't notice until his turn) in this case and it was a store level event so there were no real consequences, but imagine if instead it was a PTQ and my opponent who noticed on his turn. I would be pretty unhappy if I got DQed or game lossed for something like that. Well first off, at a PTQ your mistake would have led to a huge advantage for yourself. Maybe a DQ isn't reasonable, but neither is "Well your opponent didn't babysit your lands for you, nothing can be done." There should be a fast, easy way to resolve this kind of mistake at a penalty to you. Something to discourage sloppy play while it also not being an automatic game lose/dq. Things like this already exist for drawing extra cards and such, it can be expanded.
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May 10, 2017 18:34
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Elyv posted:Sometimes people just flat out make silly mistakes because Magic is a complicated game with a lot of moving parts. Back when RTR was newest set, I played a sealed event with this sweet 4 color deck. I cast a Knightly Valor on turn 6, leaving only my Selesnya Guildgate untapped. That would be all well and good, except that Guildgate was my only source of white mana. I had no 1 mana white tricks in my hand(hell, I don't even remember if there were any in the set), I just wanted to leave up as many possibilities as possible. I actually called the judge on myself(because I didn't notice until his turn) in this case and it was a store level event so there were no real consequences, but imagine if instead it was a PTQ and my opponent who noticed on his turn. I would be pretty unhappy if I got DQed or game lossed for something like that. I'm not calling for immediate DQs or game losses. I just think that that intent is less important at a high level and that mistakes I make in my favor shouldn't be too late to undo and/or not incur a penalty just because my opponent doesn't notice in time. At FNM, Gameday, Prerelease, or any casual event yeah, be super lenient. I've even let opponents rewind entire turns because they made a mistake due to a misconception with how the rules or a card worked. I'm saying this from the POV of a guy who referees sports. The best parallel I can think of is in soccer where 8-year-olds are just learning how to do proper throw-ins. If they do it illegally, I'll explain the rule to them, and then if they still mess it up a second time in a row, they forfeit the throw-in to the other team like the rules say. Was the kid trying to get an edge? No, he was just trying to throw the ball hard and it's natural to lift your foot up. But there's another group of 8-year-olds on the other team that are also expected to perform the same actions correctly, and after getting called on it a few times they learn to make the mistake less and do proper legal throw-ins.
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May 10, 2017 18:53
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You get lightning bolted and milled for 9. Wait that'd encourage misplays by deaths shadow and dredge pilots A tough nut to be sure!
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May 10, 2017 18:54
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It's very funny how the thread went from "some pro are abusing rules to make their opponents lose" to "rules should be more severe and punishing" (so pro can abuse them to make people lose)!
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May 10, 2017 19:01
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YggdrasilTM posted:It's very funny how the thread went from "some pro are abusing rules to make their opponents lose" to "rules should be more severe and punishing" (so pro can abuse them to make people lose)! Its incredibly good
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May 10, 2017 19:02
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mailorder bees! posted:what happens in your game is YOUR responsibility. This is such a dumb game I'm not sure why any of us play it.
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May 10, 2017 19:05
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YggdrasilTM posted:It's very funny how the thread went from "some pro are abusing rules to make their opponents lose" to "rules should be more severe and punishing" (so pro can abuse them to make people lose)! No it's more like "pros know the right codewords for saying they didn't intend to cheat to avoid getting punished". Like when some rando tournament player gets paired against a pro for the first time it shouldn't be on that player who probably is already nervous as hell to referee their opponent. Again, EE not destroying your own top: "Well you didn't notice your opponent
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May 10, 2017 19:07
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ThePeavstenator posted:No it's more like "pros know the right codewords for saying they didn't intend to cheat to avoid getting punished". The problem is that if you punish actions like these, you are encouraging the opponent that notice them to report them only after some time, when they cannot be rewind.
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May 10, 2017 19:17
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I don't even know why they banned Alex Bertoncini. If his opponents didn't want to get cheated, they should have paid more attention. It's their responsibility since, after all, it's their game.
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May 10, 2017 19:19
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YggdrasilTM posted:The problem is that if you punish actions like these, you are encouraging the opponent that notice them to report them only after some time, when they cannot be rewind. Pick one, the person performing the "mistake" having the downside or the opponent "missing" it. I feel like the one making the mistake seems the most fair.
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May 10, 2017 19:23
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Hellsau posted:I don't even know why they banned Alex Bertoncini. If his opponents didn't want to get cheated, they should have paid more attention. It's their responsibility since, after all, it's their game. Simple solution: play your opponent's deck.
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May 10, 2017 19:27
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I did some research on my original question of extra cards in your deckbox and found this discussion: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg3-5/ So, if you present your deck with your sideboard also and point out everything left in your box is not in your sideboard you are ok. Probably best not to push it though.
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May 10, 2017 19:32
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I keep a Russian foil Colossal Whale in all my deckboxes. Will I get DQed at FNM y/n
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May 10, 2017 19:48
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I just have a note in mine that says "Owen is a turd". Is that fine?
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May 10, 2017 19:49
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:I did some research on my original question of extra cards in your deckbox and found this discussion: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg3-5/ quote:Cards in different sleeves, tokens, and double-faced cards for which checklists are being used are ignored when determining deck (not sideboard) legality. I don't know if this is supposed to be an example of where you don't get a game loss, but I definitely got a game loss for this at gp chicago for a card that. 1. Was in a different sleeve 2. Was not even castable in the decks colors (wasn't rw) 3. Was not legal in the format (zendikar in theros block standard) 4. Was being used to separate the maindeck and sideboard because I didn't have anywhere else to keep the card in my bag. Like idgaf about my record or anything, and I was really only there as a driver anyways. To be safe, do not have anything in your deckbox that is not listed on your decklist
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May 10, 2017 19:52
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What happens if I sneak a Cheatyface into play? Is that a deck error or a GRV?
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May 10, 2017 19:54
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suicidesteve posted:I keep a Russian foil Colossal Whale in all my deckboxes. Will I get DQed at FNM y/n Just keep your picture of your girlfriend in your wallet like everyone else.
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May 10, 2017 19:58
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suicidesteve posted:What happens if I sneak a Cheatyface into play? Is that a deck error or a GRV? instant dq
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May 10, 2017 20:00
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suicidesteve posted:What happens if I sneak a Cheatyface into play? Is that a deck error or a GRV? your dick doubles in size
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