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Bape Culture posted:Someone should set up a more centralist party I think. No, the "middle class" should recognise there is only bourgeois, petty-bourgeois, proletariat and lumpenproletariat. If you work for someone, you are a proletarian my friend, defend your class interests.
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May 11, 2017 16:38
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Bape Culture posted:How so? In a hard technical sense you're either a capitalist or a worker. You either sell your labour to survive, or you don't. That doesn't leave space for a middle class, and a frequent argument is that the conception of a "middle class" is a malicious effort to promote divisions amongst the poorer and better off workers. Another argument would be that the question of whether you're middle class is based not on your relation to the means of production, but your consumption of culture. It's a really interesting issue to go into and *faaaaaarrrt*
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May 11, 2017 16:39
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Party Boat posted:Anyone who claims that 16 year olds are too stupid to vote needs to watch the guardian video of the guy who says that he hates the Tories and the cuts they've implemented, but Jeremy Corbyn isn't going to win so he's voting for the Tories This is a big problem though, politics in the UK (and even more so in the US) has turned into what is basically a sports contest, and people want to be on 'the winning team'.
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May 11, 2017 16:40
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forkboy84 posted:No, the "middle class" should recognise there is only bourgeois, petty-bourgeois, proletariat and lumpenproletariat. If you work for someone, you are a proletarian my friend, defend your class interests. I work for myself.
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May 11, 2017 16:41
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Bape Culture posted:I work for myself. How many people do you employ? That decides if you go up against the wall or not. Anyway, Polly Toynbee likes the leaked Labour manifesto, which I didn't see happening. It won't make any difference, but it's a surprise. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 16:48 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 16:45
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Oberleutnant posted:In a hard technical sense you're either a capitalist or a worker. You either sell your labour to survive, or you don't. That doesn't leave space for a middle class, and a frequent argument is that the conception of a "middle class" is a malicious effort to promote divisions amongst the poorer and better off workers. Bape Culture posted:I work for myself.
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May 11, 2017 16:46
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haakman posted:In the immortal words of GDT: GDT?
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May 11, 2017 16:53
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Guillermo del Toro? I'm pretty sure that two line policy document comes from a Tim Krieder cartoon about Republicans.
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May 11, 2017 16:59
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Firos posted:Other than fox hunting and the fuel price cap, I don't think I could even name another Tory policy. And I'm quite interested in politics. Is it just me being oblivious? Reintroducing grammar schools and cutting corporation tax again are two.
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May 11, 2017 16:59
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This nice researcher would like you to do a survey https://twitter.com/ej_odwyer/status/862659917068603394
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May 11, 2017 17:04
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https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/862412963440975872 Top political analyst says potential governments having actual plans rather than just winging it is bad because Stalin. Genius.
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May 11, 2017 17:04
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Bape Culture posted:Someone should set up a more centralist party I think. The Lib Dems are right there. To take your question seriously, you first have to define what "centralism" is. In the "End of History" age of politics since 1991, the idea was that the basic problem of ideological politics was solved, and that all that all that was required going forward was neoliberalism and solving individual issues by negotiation and technocratic policy. We're seeing now that what was in fact happening was papering over the cracks in society with liberal use of credit, and now large amounts people are suddenly poor, angry and feel that these neoliberal political institutions are no longer representing or responsive to them. The right has come out much better from this, both due to the fact that a maintenance of the current liberal hegemony favours people who already have power (banks, media etc.) and can draw in people outside of that circle by apportioning blame to the foreign "other" and appealing to nostalgia. The centre-left has fared much more poorly, because of an unwillingness or inability to use illiberal and anti-foreign rhetoric without alienating a major part of their voters, and just not being as good or convincing at it as the right. Without that, the option has been to either wither on the vine while clinging to liberalism (Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands, USA, Sweden) and/or form parties that fully embrace socialist ideas that have then been successful (Spain, Portugal, Greece). The UK is strange in that our centre-left party has successfully (for now anyway) pivoted to the left and to socialism, something that hasn't really been done elsewhere as far as I know, largely due to the unique power Labour party members have the way the party is run. This leaves the "true centre" then, which is a pretty rapidly diminishing area of appeal which basically amounts to "people who are pretty happy with the status quo but aren't ethnic nationalists". The Lib Dems are firmly in this position - their policy page is essentially a complete acceptance of the liberal status quo, with some tweaks, a position which seems to be failing to win votes pretty much across the board. The big win for neoliberalism recently is Macron, but even then to win he was set against a literal fascist and had one of the highest rates of abstention in any recent French presidential election. Meanwhile the Lib Dems have been handed a tailor made issue to campaign on in Brexit, yet according to current polls are set to win back only 20% of the votes they lost in 2015. I suspect that unless the Lib Dems have a surprisingly good result in the GE the leadership will need to take a pretty radical look at what the party does going forward, otherwise they are essentially going to end up as bizarro UKIP - a middle class party of liberal protest.
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May 11, 2017 17:07
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Party Boat posted:Guillermo del Toro? Yeah, it's called The Choice I think [edit] Yep http://www.thepaincomics.com/weekly021120.htm
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May 11, 2017 17:10
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No thread, just no to the 16 year olds voting thing.  Remembering what it was like when you were 16 gives you a completely different perspective to people who are a parent who owns teenagers, or a teacher. 16 year olds are incredibly malleable, and it's got worse in the internet age. All very well if you think they will follow the agenda that you like, but what if they don't? What if the people you don't like starts throwing money at the press, and runs online campaigns with celebrities and whatnot involved aimed directly at an enormous demographic known to be gullible, politically innocent, and easily manipulated by their peers?
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May 11, 2017 17:15
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forkboy84 posted:https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/862412963440975872 i remember reading an article that argued obama was actually a leninist because lenin also introduced market reforms
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May 11, 2017 17:17
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Yeah, it's called The Choice I think I was quoting something awful forums user Goddamnedtwisto. I didn't know that was the original provenance of the source, so thanks!
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May 11, 2017 17:20
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learnincurve posted:What if the people you don't like starts throwing money at the press, and runs online campaigns with celebrities and whatnot involved aimed directly at an enormous demographic known to be gullible, politically innocent, and easily manipulated by their peers? We get Brexit? You're right though, I don't want Pepe Longstockings from the 'Hitler did nothing wrong' party to get 5% of the vote.
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May 11, 2017 17:24
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learnincurve posted:known to be gullible, politically innocent, and easily manipulated by their peers? So just like every other bloc of british voters? Wish I was even being sarcy 
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May 11, 2017 17:25
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learnincurve posted:No thread, just no to the 16 year olds voting thing. None of this actually makes them different from adults.
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May 11, 2017 17:27
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If everyone's stupid how come all you geniuses are so poor?
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May 11, 2017 17:30
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sassassin posted:If everyone's stupid how come all you geniuses are so poor? I'm stupid in a different way.
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May 11, 2017 17:33
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16 and 17 year olds would be what, 1.5 million maybe? Turnout for 18-24 year olds in 2015 was 43% which I feel pretty confident setting as an upper bound so we're looking at a voting bloc of about 650k, an average of 1,000 per seat (that won't be uniform obviously but effort). There's maybe 30 seats with majorities of less than 1,000 so even if teens were a hive mind you wouldn't see much political impact.
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May 11, 2017 17:33
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sassassin posted:If everyone's stupid how come all you geniuses are so poor? look at this guy who believes that success is predicated on ability or effort lol just lmbo rn itt
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May 11, 2017 17:36
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sassassin posted:If everyone's stupid how come all you geniuses are so poor? Kurt Vonnegut posted:America is the wealthiest nation on Earth, but its people are mainly poor, and poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the American humorist Kin Hubbard, 'It ain’t no disgrace to be poor, but it might as well be.' It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: 'if you’re so smart, why ain’t you rich?' There will also be an American flag no larger than a child’s hand – glued to a lollipop stick and flying from the cash register. EDIT - Yeah, yeah, talking about America, still applicable
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May 11, 2017 17:36
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Oberleutnant posted:look at this guy who believes that success is predicated on ability or effort lol My dad literally doesn't believe in any form of systemic discrimination and fully, 100% believes that everyone is where they deserve to be, rich or poor, based on how hard they work. How the gently caress do you even attempt to carve through that?
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May 11, 2017 17:38
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forkboy84 posted:None of this actually makes them different from adults. Oh but trust me, they are far worse. They are far more easily led and much more likely to actually go out and vote than UKIP supporters. 18 is a good cut off point, the vast vast majority of 16 and 17 year olds live only for today, they have no concept of mortality or the future, and they exist in a protected bubble world filled with kids their own age and younger where adults are seen as a different species. 18 year olds have had the security of school ripped out from under them.
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May 11, 2017 17:41
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Party Boat posted:16 and 17 year olds would be what, 1.5 million maybe? Turnout for 18-24 year olds in 2015 was 43% which I feel pretty confident setting as an upper bound so we're looking at a voting bloc of about 650k, an average of 1,000 per seat (that won't be uniform obviously but effort). There's maybe 30 seats with majorities of less than 1,000 so even if teens were a hive mind you wouldn't see much political impact. 1000 voters could have changed the outcome of every single council seat in our area.
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May 11, 2017 17:42
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That's a very middle class house.
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May 11, 2017 17:43
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I can't get enough of are Dan
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MikeCrotch posted:My dad literally doesn't believe in any form of systemic discrimination and fully, 100% believes that everyone is where they deserve to be, rich or poor, based on how hard they work. Find an example of someone who earns ten times more than he does and ask him why he works a tenth as hard, and why he doesn't love his family enough to work harder
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May 11, 2017 17:44
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learnincurve posted:1000 voters could have changed the outcome of every single council seat in our area. That's per parliamentary seat, it'd obviously be a much much smaller pool for council seats and with a smaller turnout.
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May 11, 2017 17:45
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learnincurve posted:Oh but trust me, they are far worse. They are far more easily led and much more likely to actually go out and vote than UKIP supporters. "Live only for today" being a reason excluding people from voting would mean we'd need an upper age limit too, because the old cunts who voted Brexit sure aren't voting for tomorrow, they'll be dead by then. sassassin posted:If everyone's stupid how come all you geniuses are so poor? Because my parents weren't rich, their parents weren't rich, etc going back 15 generations. Social mobility is a lie, for the vast majority of people it just does not exist.
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May 11, 2017 17:46
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MikeCrotch posted:My dad literally doesn't believe in any form of systemic discrimination and fully, 100% believes that everyone is where they deserve to be, rich or poor, based on how hard they work. I can understand why some Americans believe that, being fed a steady stream of prosperity gospel and fiscal liberalism inherent to the national mythos, but when you live in a country where the Head of State gets immense wealth and a fair degree of power from being born into the right family?
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May 11, 2017 17:47
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Isn't it just Tories.mpeg that she has a person to knock on the loving door FOR her.
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May 11, 2017 17:50
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Party Boat posted:That's per parliamentary seat, it'd obviously be a much much smaller pool for council seats and with a smaller turnout. Where are a lot of the polling booths? You think political parties wouldn't offer to hire mini-busses to take kids out of schools to go vote? You are seriously underestimating the Machiavellian instincts of the Tory party my friend.
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May 11, 2017 17:51
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Find an example of someone who earns ten times more than he does and ask him why he works a tenth as hard, and why he doesn't love his family enough to work harder He would say "well they probably do work hard and deserve it". I don't think i've ever asked him about the royal family. loving maddening.
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May 11, 2017 17:52
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learnincurve posted:Oh but trust me, they are far worse. They are far more easily led and much more likely to actually go out and vote than UKIP supporters. Your entire argument is just generalities tarring all 16-17 year olds with the same brush, while ignoring that most of your criticisms apply to other age groups anyway.
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May 11, 2017 17:53
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You either have a unfairly low opinion of adults or don't spend much time with teenagers.
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May 11, 2017 17:55
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I was a complete oval office when i was 16 And when i was 17, come to think of it
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May 11, 2017 17:56
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No I'm just not too fond of paternalistic liberals.
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May 11, 2017 17:57
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Oberleutnant posted:I was a complete oval office when i was 16 And when is your 18th birthday coming up? 
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May 11, 2017 17:57
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