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Flowers For Algeria posted:They can't do poo poo I'm a union member One weird contradiction is how people here are completely happy to associated themselves with labor unions, which typically have views towards immigration that make Ligur look like a "globalist"
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May 11, 2017 18:56
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Geriatric Pirate posted:One weird contradiction is how people here are completely happy to associated themselves with labor unions, which typically have views towards immigration that make Ligur look like a "globalist" What the hell is this?
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May 11, 2017 19:00
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Geriatric Pirate posted:One weird contradiction is how people here are completely happy to associated themselves with labor unions, which typically have views towards immigration that make Ligur look like a "globalist" Source your quotes because this is the official position of the largest confederation of unions in Portugal: http://www.cgtp.pt/informacao/comunicacao-social/comunicados/8928-posicao-da-cgtp-in-sobre-a-situacao-dos-refugiados-e-imigrantes I 'll translate a relevant bit: The CGTP-IN argues that it is not immigrants and refugees who threaten workers' rights and living conditions in Portugal and the European Union, but rather their common immigration policy, which criminalizes their entry and keeps These men and women in hiding, in deep insecurity and instability, often subject to the networks of traffickers, a situation that benefits capital and accentuates the pressure on the workers in general to reduce wages and rights. The fight of workers and immigrants and refugees is shared, and the greater the solidarity in the just demand of these men and women for secure shelter, visas, and demands their integration into society and membership in the Unions.
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May 11, 2017 19:09
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not sure i fully understand the relatioship between macron and bayrou but it feels like the modem is getting ratfucked for the legislatives lol
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May 11, 2017 19:15
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GaussianCopula posted:Actually Finland has 56.1% and France has 56.2% according to the latest data (see https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/6769/umfrage/staatsquoten-der-eu-laender/). GaussianCopula posted:Well, I would refer you to a certain Macron, who is president-elect and former Minister of Economy of France, whose analysis, shared by much of the mainstream press and academia points towards the fact that the French indeed do not get enough for their taxes. This analysis is only shared by dogmatic assholes and utter morons, with absolutely no exception. That a bunch of superstitious wankers whose thought is obscured by magical thinking are what is considered "academia" only says about the pitiful state of economics as a science. They are absolute fuckhead who start from a conclusion they want to hold ("public stuff bad; private stuff owned by my oligarch buddies good") and they build their case using selective or falsified data. They should all be killed and the world would be much improved and a lot less corrupt.
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May 11, 2017 19:18
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TheRat posted:I would refer you to GO gently caress YOURSELF YOU NAZI oval office. Why are you so loving desperate to kill poor people in other countries? If GC or Ligur or anyone else says something nazist then report them and they will be probated or banned. If on the other hand they are trying to discuss public spending then I would appreciate if you shut the hell up. I might politically agree with you more than with him but I much more appreciate an intelligent attempt at discussion than worthless attacks and zingers, which is the entirety of your contribution to this thread.
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May 11, 2017 19:26
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Now now cat mattress we can't go around trying to kill every class of people we don't like.that would make us the rich and then we would have to guillotine ourselves.
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May 11, 2017 19:26
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Doctor Malaver posted:If GC or Ligur or anyone else says something nazist then report them and they will be probated or banned. If on the other hand they are trying to discuss public spending then I would appreciate if you shut the hell up. I might politically agree with you more than with him but I much more appreciate an intelligent attempt at discussion than worthless attacks and zingers, which is the entirety of your contribution to this thread. If you classify what GC is doing as intelligent debate then I don't really know what to tell you. It's the 79th edition of "Why austerity is great and poor people aren't actually people", and it's really loving boring and disingenuous.
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May 11, 2017 19:31
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ChainsawCharlie posted:Source your quotes because this is the official position of the largest confederation of unions in Portugal: There's a big difference between "let's legalize the ones here already" (i.e. let's bring them into our organization, let's make it easier for them to work legally - i.e. under our control) and "let's stop bombing the Middle East and creating new refugees" vs "let's make it easier for people to legally enter and work in our country" The first view is pragmatic, recognizing that there are many immigrants already. The second is anti-immigrant (indirectly). Only the third, which labor unions hardly ever support, is pro-immigration. The last one is typically opposed with some completely incorrect arguments about "wages being undercut" or whatever. Here's an example from Finland: https://www.sak.fi/tyoelama/sakn-kannat/tyovoiman-maahanmuutto (in Finnish, the first sentence is literally "We cannot let immigrants become cheap workers at wages which one can't survive on"), though ideally you'd be able to read the many articles in Finnish media where labor unions talk about "cheap labor" and "the grey economy" whenever immigration is brought up (example in Finnish): https://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/91335-vaihtoehto-ulkomaiselle-tyovoimalle-%E2%80%9Dsurkuhupaisaa%E2%80%9D
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May 11, 2017 19:35
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Geriatric Pirate posted:One weird contradiction is how people here are completely happy to associated themselves with labor unions, which typically have views towards immigration that make Ligur look like a "globalist" Nope lol
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May 11, 2017 19:35
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Nope lol He might mean labour unions ensure labour costs are so high migrants with low education/skill -levels (which is a significant amount and in the case of asylum seekers, most of them) will be hard pressed to find a job and many never will.
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May 11, 2017 19:41
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Pinch Me Im Meming posted:What the hell is this? He's the Finnish bargain basement GC, and shares the same lust for seeing the poor suffer as well as a dogmatic refusal to acknowledge that his preferred economic ideology is a massive failure, hth.
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May 11, 2017 19:47
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Ligur posted:He might mean labour unions ensure labour costs are so high migrants with low education/skill -levels (which is a significant amount and in the case of asylum seekers, most of them) will be hard pressed to find a job and many never will. Well there's that - indirect anti-immigrant policies, trying to prevent the existence or at least limit the supply (by forcing too high a wage) of low skilled jobs. But there's also some pretty explicit "we can't let immigrants in - they'll drive down wages" or "we must be wary of the risks of too big a grey market when making immigration policy" Cerebral Bore posted:He's the Finnish bargain basement GC, and shares the same lust for seeing the poor suffer as well as a dogmatic refusal to acknowledge that his preferred economic ideology is a massive failure, hth. Aren't you an actual communist in 2017?
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May 11, 2017 20:01
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Well there's that - indirect anti-immigrant policies, trying to prevent the existence or at least limit the supply (by forcing too high a wage) of low skilled jobs. But there's also some pretty explicit "we can't let immigrants in - they'll drive down wages" or "we must be wary of the risks of too big a grey market when making immigration policy" I also hate the idea of a livable wage for everybody
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May 11, 2017 20:06
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Aren't you an actual communist in 2017? lol that you think this is an actual comeback in 2017.
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May 11, 2017 20:09
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Geriatric Pirate posted:There's a big difference between "let's legalize the ones here already" (i.e. let's bring them into our organization, let's make it easier for them to work legally - i.e. under our control) and "let's stop bombing the Middle East and creating new refugees" vs "let's make it easier for people to legally enter and work in our country" And the second sentence is "Foreign employees must have the same working conditions as other workers in Finland." My understanding here being same rights,obligations and protections. I mean every organisation has their problems, and some of the aspects of visas only for job shortages are problematic,but Sak has a office and hotline free of charge for any immigrant with contractual or labour questions and disputes,that doesn't exactly scream "foreigners out." Cheap labour and grey or shadow economy is an issue in a lot of countries but I have never seen a union say that the cause are immigrants or illegal workers,because they arent.the criminals are the people who exploit them.also please note I can only talk about left wing unions,there's a few on the right wing which I can't vouch for in terms of their position regarding this issue for obvious reasons. Edit:free movement of workers is a ...not contentious ,lets say disputed issue on unions,some say the concept is good in theory but mainly used by capital as a way to a artificially keep wages down.but again,a union claiming that some problem is the fault of the exploited workers seems...improbable. Antifa Poltergeist fucked around with this message at 20:15 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 20:10
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Capital is the one we should fight against, and the only one to blame for low wages and terrible working conditions
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May 11, 2017 20:20
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Capital is the one we should fight against, and the only one to blame for low wages and terrible working conditions  But look at that guy on the left! So swarthy! Guy on the right has got his poo poo together, must be why he's got all the cookies. Admire his entrepreneurship. So smart.
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May 11, 2017 20:35
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I wonder why Leftists have such a hard time hanging on to power without violence given that their ideology is supposedly superior and leads to a betterment for most people, according to them. You'd think that once in power the people in a democratic country would never again elect someone who is not a socialist. I'd be interested how actual leftists explain this empirical data.
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May 11, 2017 21:19
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GaussianCopula posted:I wonder why Leftists have such a hard time hanging on to power without violence given that their ideology is supposedly superior and leads to a betterment for most people, according to them. You'd think that once in power the people in a democratic country would never again elect someone who is not a socialist. It's almost as if most of the world's entire socio-economico power structure and the media coverage is against their policies or something. Real sad.
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May 11, 2017 21:22
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GaussianCopula posted:I wonder why Leftists have such a hard time hanging on to power without violence given that their ideology is supposedly superior and leads to a betterment for most people, according to them. You'd think that once in power the people in a democratic country would never again elect someone who is not a socialist. Capital and blind ideologues like you are tireless adversaries, my dear GC.
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May 11, 2017 21:23
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ChainsawCharlie posted:And the second sentence is "Foreign employees must have the same working conditions as other workers in Finland." My understanding here being same rights,obligations and protections. There's also an implied anti-immigrant consequence to their policies: Saying that everyone must be paid the same (where "the same" is some high wage) hurts low-skilled workers who are the ones who will be left out by these policies. And immigrants are disproportionately in these groups. The only Finnish people for instance who accept jobs picking berries in the summer for 6e/hour are teenagers. However, we also have a lot of seasonal workers coming in from Thailand to do those same jobs super willingly. Saying that all workers must be paid 10e or whatever is going to hit those jobs (predominantly immigrant) much harder than it will hit jobs done by Finnish people. quote:I mean every organisation has their problems, and some of the aspects of visas only for job shortages are problematic,but Sak has a office and hotline free of charge for any immigrant with contractual or labour questions and disputes,that doesn't exactly scream "foreigners out." quote:Cheap labour and grey or shadow economy is an issue in a lot of countries but I have never seen a union say that the cause are immigrants or illegal workers,because they arent.the criminals are the people who exploit them.also please note I can only talk about left wing unions,there's a few on the right wing which I can't vouch for in terms of their position regarding this issue for obvious reasons.
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May 11, 2017 21:24
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Pinch Me Im Meming posted:It's almost as if most of the world's entire socio-economico power structure and the media coverage is against their policies or something. Real sad. If only we could have a country employ their ideology for almost 70 years and be isolated from "capitalist" press for a good part of that, we would have really good empirical data.
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May 11, 2017 21:24
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Geriatric Pirate posted:So they aren't going to explicitly say "no more foreigners" but that doesn't mean that talking about the grey market and wages being pushed down isn't an anti-immigration position. I mean this is the thread (not you but others) who cry racism everytime a nationalist party says "they must follow our laws or get thrown out." But I mean if that's not enough for you, there's also an explicit statement on the page saying that "immigration for work purposes from outside the EU must be based on a labor shortage. Removing tarveharkinta (essentially a system where "need" is considered when accepting work permits) is not justified in our current situation as unemployment is high." If only Finland had 1€/h sweatshops in order to employ all those immigrants cheaply... (Hint: there's a pretty easy way to bring unemployment down, no matter what the wages are, and that's to reduce working time across the board accordingly)
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May 11, 2017 21:31
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GaussianCopula posted:If only we could have a country employ their ideology for almost 70 years and be isolated from "capitalist" press for a good part of that, we would have really good empirical data. You said maintaining power in a democratic country now, didn't you, GaussianCopula my boy? These goalposts not to hard to shift around? Don't strain your back, I'd hate for an ER immigrant nurse to take care of you, that poor woman/man.
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May 11, 2017 21:33
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GaussianCopula posted:I wonder why Leftists have such a hard time hanging on to power without violence given that their ideology is supposedly superior and leads to a betterment for most people, according to them. You'd think that once in power the people in a democratic country would never again elect someone who is not a socialist. Leftist governments might not hold on but big leftist reforms often tend to stick. You only have to go back a hundred years and a 6 day working week was normal. It has taken over 60 years before the right are achieving real success in starting to dismantle the educational and healthcare institutions that Attlee's government put in place in the UK. Nobody is talking about abolishing the minimum wage in the UK either. Because the right tends to be less ideological also tends to be better at picking its battles based on the sentiment of the moment, which means people start to take the things the left won them for granted and then get really surprised later on when a right wing government starts to take it apart.
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May 11, 2017 21:33
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Flowers For Algeria posted:(Hint: there's a pretty easy way to bring unemployment down, no matter what the wages are, and that's to reduce working time across the board accordingly) How does this work? I'm not trying to be an rear end in a top hat or anything, seriously. I just don't really get it. So there's this guy who has to work 40h/week to make ends meet, and this other guy who has no job and lives on transfers of funds (welfare benefits, from the guy who works, as taxes basically). Cut the working hours for the first guy to 50%, the other guy can take the other 50%, and nobody has to rely on welfare benefits. Or something.
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May 11, 2017 21:42
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Lord of the Llamas posted:Leftist governments might not hold on but big leftist reforms often tend to stick. You only have to go back a hundred years and a 6 day working week was normal. It has taken over 60 years before the right are achieving real success in starting to dismantle the educational and healthcare institutions that Attlee's government put in place in the UK. Nobody is talking about abolishing the minimum wage in the UK either. Because the right tends to be less ideological also tends to be better at picking its battles based on the sentiment of the moment, which means people start to take the things the left won them for granted and then get really surprised later on when a right wing government starts to take it apart. The first public healthcare system in the world was introduced by noted leftist Otto von Bismarck in 1883. Edit: Enjoy these latest Schulzzug polls https://twitter.com/Wahlrecht_de/status/862727751031300098 https://twitter.com/Wahlrecht_de/status/862755496935206917 keep in mind that NRW is SPD heartland and they governed it for 55 of the last 60 years, with the last time they lost it (2005) leading to Schröder triggering early elections in the Bund and losing them, giving us Merkelternity. GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 21:50 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 21:43
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Ligur posted:How does this work? I'm not trying to be an rear end in a top hat or anything, seriously. I just don't really get it. So there's this guy who has to work 40h/week to make ends meet, and this other guy who has no job and lives on transfers of funds (welfare benefits, from the guy who works, as taxes basically). Pay all workers a decent, livable wage. Cut their hours by 10% while maintaining their salary. Boom you've created hundreds of thousands of jobs. What you've done is: transfer wealth from capital to the workers. (Also it's likely that if the first worker in your example is only barely making ends meet, his taxes are not high at all).
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May 11, 2017 21:51
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Pay all workers a decent, livable wage. Cut their hours by 10% while maintaining their salary. Boom you've created hundreds of thousands of jobs. What you've done is: transfer wealth from capital to the workers. You seem to have some outlandish ideas about the profit margins realistically achievable today.
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May 11, 2017 21:53
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GaussianCopula posted:You seem to have some outlandish ideas about the profit margins realistically achievable today. It was done in 2000 in France and created 350 000 jobs for an extremely low cost overall. At least, an extremely low cost when compared to the recent tax credits that were supposed to make French companies' competitivity so much better.
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May 11, 2017 21:56
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GaussianCopula posted:You seem to have some outlandish ideas about the profit margins realistically achievable today. I'm struggling to think of a single private industry that could not absorb a 10% increase in labour costs. What it would be is massively unpopular but that's another matter.
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May 11, 2017 21:56
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We're at 35 weekly hours today, in France, technically. Of course, recent governments have relaxed the official limit, but it's still at 35 hours. Our objective in the next 15 years should be 32, then 28 hours.
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May 11, 2017 21:59
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With automation there won't be that much work left for anyone anyway... 
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May 11, 2017 22:00
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Work in the private sector for a while and you'll notice that in the current age of globalism (and automagization) 10% increase in costs is the death knell of your loving business. The margins are insanely small. MiddleOne posted:I'm struggling to think of a single private industry that could not absorb a 10% increase in labour costs. What it would be is massively unpopular but that's another matter. You are certainly struggling to think, or you are a student, or an idealogue (who has a public sector job), but you cannot be someone who knows about how business works these days.
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May 11, 2017 22:00
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i can see shortened working days being real good in a healthcare setting, they tried it already https://www.vardfokus.se/tidningen/2015/nr-11-2015-11/gabriele-jobbar/ sorry it's in swedish but its about productivity and wellbeing going UP after they switched to 6 hour days
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May 11, 2017 22:07
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Flowers For Algeria posted:It was done in 2000 in France and created 350 000 jobs for an extremely low cost overall. What's the breakdown between public sector (including state owned companies) and private sector job on that number?
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May 11, 2017 22:07
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Ligur posted:Work in the private sector for a while and you'll notice that in the current age of globalism (and automagization) 10% increase in costs is the death knell of your loving business. It's not done by snapping your fingers, no. That's why it's done over time. I'd give it 3 years, with implementation being handled by branch agreements with the unions, in order for it to become the new normal. It works, has worked in the past, and businesses have been able to deal with it. They will again, the whining of capital owners and their useful idiots notwithstanding.
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May 11, 2017 22:12
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TheRat posted:If you classify what GC is doing as intelligent debate then I don't really know what to tell you. It's the 79th edition of "Why austerity is great and poor people aren't actually people", and it's really loving boring and disingenuous. Yeah, you obviously don't. Austerity vs public spending is the most important issue in economy today and one of the most important in politics. We are bound to discuss it over and over. And if you read 79 times "austerity is great" that means that you also read 790 times "austerity is terrible" because in this thread its opponents are 10 times more numerous. So even more boring, by your standards.
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May 11, 2017 22:17
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Ligur posted:Work in the private sector for a while and you'll notice that in the current age of globalism (and automagization) 10% increase in costs is the death knell of your loving business. That's the unpopular part but this is not about competitiveness. Name a significant private industry that could not absorb a 10% increase in labour costs on their balance sheets. Even retailing, which is pretty much rock-bottom when it comes to profit margins of bigger businesses, could absorb that. Also, since you've clearly never looked at a balance sheet in your life, a 10% increase in labour costs is not a 10% increase in operating costs. That would mean that a 100% of an organizations expenses are labour costs. 
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May 11, 2017 22:23
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