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Mehrunes posted:They've had 17 years, will they ever learn how to make an AI that doesn't need huge bonuses to even try to compete? Never, ever. Running a strategic campaign is an incredibly huge and complicated problem space. There are definitely some rules that could be set that would make the AI much better after losing a few cities though. Maybe some kind of weighted value depending on how much a building could be worth given certain conditions, with recruitment structures and the like being very valuable if you don't have any and income generating structures very valuable if you have very low income after upkeep.
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May 12, 2017 08:17
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Mehrunes posted:They've had 17 years, will they ever learn how to make an AI that doesn't need huge bonuses to even try to compete? If they ever did you would whine about how the AI is out maneuvering you.
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May 12, 2017 08:20
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Mehrunes posted:They've had 17 years, will they ever learn how to make an AI that doesn't need huge bonuses to even try to compete? There are too many variables in play to make writing a super intelligent AI for a game like this to be remotely feasible. At any given point on the strategic map there are a ton of decision trees going on about where to send troops and where to allocate resources and the variables in those decision trees change constantly in relation to the actions and status of other factions. Forcing the AI to make more complex decisions would take an absolutely titanic amount of work and also run the risk of pushing up turn cycle times and/or system requirements to an unacceptable degree. It's much easier to go with something significantly more basic and add cheats to the AI to achieve roughly the same effect for infinitely less work and system performance requirements. Also as Grognan alluded to, most players who want smart AI don't actually want smart AI. An example already in the game of the AI being super optimal about their plays is how precisely they utilize march stance, which already drives a lot of players loving crazy because of how annoying it is. Your best bet is to install one of the various Better AI mods that optimizes their building and unit choices so they end up with intelligent armies; this improves the AI massively because they're no longer hamstrung with armies of garbage chaff for the entire game.
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May 12, 2017 08:50
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What if they went back to a Risk-style board? Still kinda miss that from S1/M1.
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May 12, 2017 08:55
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The problem with the cheating AI is that a whole bunch of stuff you can do with corruption/agents etc. is completely pointless so you wonder why they bothered including it at all.
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May 12, 2017 09:51
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sassassin posted:The problem with the cheating AI is that a whole bunch of stuff you can do with corruption/agents etc. is completely pointless so you wonder why they bothered including it at all. Yeah. I've used mods to turn off the AI public order bonuses and to turn on attrition of the AI but it's true the AI isn't particularly good at dealing with it. The greenskin AI seems completely incapable of hitting the 'knock some heads together to increase fightiness' button which at times results in AI greenskin armies full of almost dead units. The AI actually seems pretty capable of dealing with public order issues most of the time so I'm guessing the public order bonus was more of a 'AI doesn't have to waste building spots on alehouses' kind of thing.
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May 12, 2017 11:24
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Except when you confederate an AI faction, as Dwarves and Empire, you end up having to knock down and rationalise all the ale houses and recruitment buildings. The AI also doesnt build powerful unique buildings. Actually does the same thing happen with Bretonnians? I've only played one Bretonnian campaign and everything about them seems more polished than the vanilla factions.
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May 12, 2017 11:32
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Southpaugh posted:Except when you confederate an AI faction, as Dwarves and Empire, you end up having to knock down and rationalise all the ale houses and recruitment buildings. The AI also doesnt build powerful unique buildings. Actually does the same thing happen with Bretonnians? I've only played one Bretonnian campaign and everything about them seems more polished than the vanilla factions. They don't build the unique buildings but they typically have decent provinces army-wise, often better recruitment than player-Bretonnia has by the time you confederate. Which is nice but I still end up tearing down some of their buildings, because as a bretonnian faction you don't need more than one recruitment area and you're pressed for money slots. Also lemme re-iterate, elves forever. Malekith, Tyrion, Teclis, Saphery, gimme all the goofy fantasy words I can get. The only challenge in Warham 2 will be deciding between the blue elves and the purple ones. Green elves can go gently caress themselves naturally.
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May 12, 2017 12:21
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I find that the AI Bretonnian factions still create stacks almost exclusively composed of peasants which is a shame. It's also one of the instances where the cheats given to the AI are glaringly exposed, as that many peasants should cripple the French horseyman economy. I don't care if CA have to cheat to make the AI present a reasonable challenge but try and make it less obvious, guys.
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May 12, 2017 12:40
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Third World Reggin posted:Lizardmen fanboys are the worst truly the Tau of the fantasy setting
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May 12, 2017 14:26
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I suppose they could put in Human level AI. Personally i find the idea of waiting a week after clicking end turn to be far more historically accurate.
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May 12, 2017 15:12
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They had human level battle AI in previous games! I mean literally you could take a minute to search the quick battle queue when starting a single player battle (with equal balance bar strength) in Napoleon. It would drop a online dude in to command the AI's army. I thought that feature was super genius and I'm very salty they removed it. You could opt in or out of it on both sides too.
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May 12, 2017 16:48
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wiegieman posted:Never, ever. Running a strategic campaign is an incredibly huge and complicated problem space. Nah, screw that. Just make it whenever an AI is in possession of a city it magically gets an appropriate set of buildings after X amount of turns. Give each faction a build order based on some gamefaqs guide. Like if X faction controls Y province, cities A, B, and C should have these particular buildings. It's not like human controlled build orders are really that complex anyway.
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May 12, 2017 17:07
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Constantine XI posted:Nah, screw that. Just make it whenever an AI is in possession of a city it magically gets an appropriate set of buildings after X amount of turns. Give each faction a build order based on some gamefaqs guide. Like if X faction controls Y province, cities A, B, and C should have these particular buildings. It's not like human controlled build orders are really that complex anyway. Agreed. If the AI can't play your game have it play a different game that provides an interesting experience for the player.
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May 12, 2017 17:11
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The AI public order bonus is especially significant for smaller factions that might find themselves in possession of only a single minor settlement, at which point having the slots for recruitment buildings to put up a half-decent fight against the player becomes really difficult after the +1 chaos corruption event hits.Constantine XI posted:Nah, screw that. Just make it whenever an AI is in possession of a city it magically gets an appropriate set of buildings after X amount of turns. Give each faction a build order based on some gamefaqs guide. Like if X faction controls Y province, cities A, B, and C should have these particular buildings. It's not like human controlled build orders are really that complex anyway. I'm sure people won't complain about that.
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May 12, 2017 17:12
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the AI used to have more legendary campaign bonuses i.e. recruiting a full stack in 1 turn as chaos but they toned it down when they changed the invasion. They still have a ridiculous replenishment rate.
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May 12, 2017 17:20
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Fangz posted:The AI public order bonus is especially significant for smaller factions that might find themselves in possession of only a single minor settlement, at which point having the slots for recruitment buildings to put up a half-decent fight against the player becomes really difficult after the +1 chaos corruption event hits. So tune it based on faction. But public order really needs to be a bigger factor, if anything for various AI factions to try to trigger revolts against their AI enemies.
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May 12, 2017 17:33
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AI just needs to be able to destroy buildings to meet certain demands and shortcomings. Stubbornly holding onto a T3 growth building when all the settlements are max size is really dumb.
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May 12, 2017 17:51
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jokes posted:AI just needs to be able to destroy buildings to meet certain demands and shortcomings. Stubbornly holding onto a T3 growth building when all the settlements are max size is really dumb. Especially when the only thing they can recruit is siege weapons. The Steel Faith mod handles this pretty well actually, it lets you recruit simple units from buildings not necessarily designed for recruitment. For example Generic Bretonnian Town T3 gives you Knights of the Realm, Altdorf at any level gives you some Empire units, Karaz-a-Karak T4 gives you Slayers, etc. There's some for buildings other than tier-upgrade ones too, for example I think bretonnian farms get you some peasant units. You'll still be lacking enough that as a player you'll build the actual recruitment buildings anyway, but for the AI it's the difference between a decent army and one that consists entirely of rock lobbers. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 18:35 on May 12, 2017 |
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May 12, 2017 18:29
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It's pretty weird how effective I feel enemy artillery is compared to my own. A single hell cannon or mortar is Priority Number One for me, because it WILL get 400 kills. But my own mortars or rocket batteries are just lovely inaccurate idiot things.
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May 12, 2017 18:36
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AI seems decent at trying to prioritize targets based on what units counter what. You'll notice their missile units always target your units with no missile defense when possible, for example.
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May 12, 2017 18:38
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Panfilo posted:AI seems decent at trying to prioritize targets based on what units counter what. You'll notice their missile units always target your units with no missile defense when possible, for example. Almost to ridiculous levels in autoresolve. As Alberic your starting greenskin rebel fights end up nealy annihilating your Foot Squires and barely touching anything else, in my experience.
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May 12, 2017 18:46
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Constantine XI posted:Nah, screw that. Just make it whenever an AI is in possession of a city it magically gets an appropriate set of buildings after X amount of turns. Give each faction a build order based on some gamefaqs guide. Like if X faction controls Y province, cities A, B, and C should have these particular buildings. It's not like human controlled build orders are really that complex anyway. That's a good point, I was letting my complexity addiction get the better of me. What matters is end result for the player, with the desire of generating a fun army to fight based on what the AI has that doesn't make people cry foul. You shouldn't try to emulate player behavior in any reasonable fashion - because campaign AI can't do it.
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May 12, 2017 19:35
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Constantine XI posted:Nah, screw that. Just make it whenever an AI is in possession of a city it magically gets an appropriate set of buildings after X amount of turns. Give each faction a build order based on some gamefaqs guide. Like if X faction controls Y province, cities A, B, and C should have these particular buildings. It's not like human controlled build orders are really that complex anyway. I entirely agree with the contents of this post.
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May 12, 2017 19:42
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Southpaugh posted:Except when you confederate an AI faction, as Dwarves and Empire, you end up having to knock down and rationalise all the ale houses and recruitment buildings. The AI also doesnt build powerful unique buildings. Actually does the same thing happen with Bretonnians? I've only played one Bretonnian campaign and everything about them seems more polished than the vanilla factions. It's true, the AI desperately needs to be able to tear down buildings to put up new better buildings and also the capability of dismissing troops to make better army compositions. You see this a lot with Bret armies loaded with peasants and Undead armies made up of mostly zombies. Also, EVERY AI should be more aggressive about repopulating ruins. My problem with the AI ignoring corruption and public order is that it basically makes those mechanics completely useless, even in AI vs AI situations. Having rebellions is pretty fun and can even promote long dead factions returning to the game. As an aside, another bad mechanic with the game overall is the way it handles rebellions. The way they are handled in this game makes them beneficial as free loot and experience pinatas to the point where it can sometimes be an advantage to raid your own land or otherwise intentionally push them to rebel. As a weird greenskin mechanic that might be fun and unique, but it shouldn't be that way for most other factions.
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May 12, 2017 19:43
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I think I'm going to pick this game up for the summer, which DLCs should I get and are there any package deals? Right now it's $65 for all the DLC on Steam which is a pretty penny. It looks like Beastmen and Wood Elves unlock those races and new campaigns, so I think I can wait on those until I've played through as other races? King and the Warlord and Grim and Grave look like they add units to the four base races, so it seems I should get those to start with?
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May 12, 2017 19:58
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drat Dirty Ape posted:It's true, the AI desperately needs to be able to tear down buildings to put up new better buildings and also the capability of dismissing troops to make better army compositions. You see this a lot with Bret armies loaded with peasants and Undead armies made up of mostly zombies. Yeah, the public order/rebellion system is a complete mess. Hope they make some changes in the sequel. Maybe give you a bonus at high public order.
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May 12, 2017 20:00
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Pellisworth posted:I think I'm going to pick this game up for the summer, which DLCs should I get and are there any package deals? Right now it's $65 for all the DLC on Steam which is a pretty penny. Yeah those 2 are pretty great, especially the king and the warlord. All the other races are on the map DLC or not so you can see what ones look neat when you're fighting them and pick it up. With brettonia being free, you have 5 factions which will last you a ton of time.
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May 12, 2017 20:03
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queeb posted:Yeah those 2 are pretty great, especially the king and the warlord. All the other races are on the map DLC or not so you can see what ones look neat when you're fighting them and pick it up. With brettonia being free, you have 5 factions which will last you a ton of time. Okay thanks, so I dont't really need any DLCs to start, maybe just play as Brettonia and get a feel for the game, then buy the DLCs for each race when I feel like playing as them?
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May 12, 2017 20:07
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I highly, highly recommend not buying any DLC and just playing a vanilla game as Empire as Franz with the "Green iz Best" mod (to level the dwarf v greenskins playing field). This gives you a straightforward relatively no-frills experience, except for Empire frilly hats, and it makes you deal with Chaos whether you want to or not, which is pretty much the main focus of the game in a way. The DLC does not unlock anything but the ability to PLAY as those races in their special campaigns that you buy (barring the DLC with regiments of renown). Regiments of renown are instant-build units that are slightly better or different than another unit, for example a Regiment of Renown for Empire is the Sigmar's Sons, a unit of swordsmen that are unbreakable meaning they'll never run. Other than that, they're just a unit of swordsmen with like +5 melee attack/defense. They aren't necessarily "extra units" in the same manner as if they started offering flying units for Empire or something. Empire offers the most variety of things so you can try out skirmishers, heavy cav, artillery, heavy infantry, almost every lore, etc) and you fight every faction here and there. The dwarfs have a good chance of not ultimately gobbling up the greenskins so you get to fight them early game and late game, dwarfs will attack here and there because they're bored assholes, and every single other race (other than wood elfs) ultimately wants to destroy you and WILL declare war. Then, based on the people you fight in your first game and how cool they seem or how fun they appear, purchase the DLC as you want to play as them. They're all fun and cool races, except for dwarfs who are neither fun, nor substantially cool. Alternatively, play as whoever since you'll probably end up fighting everyone anyways, they're all just a bit more gimmicky and less fancy than Empire who almost always gets destroyed early anyways.
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May 12, 2017 20:09
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Constantine XI posted:Nah, screw that. Just make it whenever an AI is in possession of a city it magically gets an appropriate set of buildings after X amount of turns. Give each faction a build order based on some gamefaqs guide. Like if X faction controls Y province, cities A, B, and C should have these particular buildings. It's not like human controlled build orders are really that complex anyway.
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May 12, 2017 20:22
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https://gfycat.com/NeatImpeccableIndianjackal Slayer tries desperately to be a good, useful unit. (Watch the Orc and Slayer right up in front.)
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May 12, 2017 21:30
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Gonkish posted:https://gfycat.com/NeatImpeccableIndianjackal Gotta respect the Deathblow. (Attacking after they die is an actual ability Slayers have.) Slayers are actually pretty strong units these days, even in MP. madmac fucked around with this message at 22:15 on May 12, 2017 |
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May 12, 2017 22:02
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Pellisworth posted:Okay thanks, so I dont't really need any DLCs to start, maybe just play as Brettonia and get a feel for the game, then buy the DLCs for each race when I feel like playing as them? If you do get the Chaos DLC pick up the Chaos Undivided megamod that adds like 50 units to it's roster. It turns them into a proper end game threat, assuming the AI bothers to recruit them. It basically fills out Chaos and lets you choose to play as either an adherent to a specific god (each with their own strategies and means of combat.) or as the titular Chaos Undivided. It also gives Chaos proper elite units on par with the other factions. You basically have to raid to support them but holy poo poo is encountering them in either the campaign or just fielding them insane to see.
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May 12, 2017 23:47
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I do wish there was a mod to make the Elector Counts feel more unique. There's ones for Leitdorf and Valmir (that aren't great because you can only use it with Crynsos) And one for Elspeth Von Draken, which... again, isn't great. I just wish there was a reason to collect these dudes beyond "Generals already leveled by the time you confederate."
Onmi fucked around with this message at 23:54 on May 12, 2017 |
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May 12, 2017 23:51
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I've grown to like Crynsos, but yeah, if they're going to add another DLC I hope it is Sigmar's Heirs themed, adding more content to the other Empire factions. Halflings Cooks and more electors! I mean, Middenland already loses the Sigmarite units and Talabheim builds the Temple of Taal instead of Sigmar's. There's got to be something more over there.
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May 13, 2017 02:27
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Pellisworth posted:I think I'm going to pick this game up for the summer, which DLCs should I get and are there any package deals? Right now it's $65 for all the DLC on Steam which is a pretty penny. Your post is the correct path, do that.
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May 13, 2017 07:52
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ZearothK posted:I've grown to like Crynsos, but yeah, if they're going to add another DLC I hope it is Sigmar's Heirs themed, adding more content to the other Empire factions. Halflings Cooks and more electors!  But it wont ever happen, we'll be lucky if the Empire ever gets an alternate start at this rate.
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May 13, 2017 12:35
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Gonkish posted:https://gfycat.com/NeatImpeccableIndianjackal  that's amazing
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May 13, 2017 13:12
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Gonkish posted:https://gfycat.com/NeatImpeccableIndianjackal EVEN IN DEATH I STILL But seriously. Holy gently caress that is metal. I had no idea that slayers were a unit that could literally attack after being decapitated.
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May 13, 2017 13:24
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