|
ProfessorProf posted:
Sounds like it should be George? e: update on last page 
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 14:03
|
|
"And I wonder what kind of a grandma you'll be. However, I will always keep loving you. And when we eventually pass away, surrounded by our vast family, our lives will stretch behind us, unmatched by anyone else's."
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 01:26 |
|
|
I mentioned a couple of missing song links in discord. Those aren't particularly important (it's just Steady Pace and Cage), but Elder Beato's profile should've been up since the previous update.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 14:31
|
|
|
I'll fix those things when I'm not at work.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 14:33
|
|
|
Finally, the revelation
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 14:53
|
|
|
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3790134&userid=164919&perpage=40&pagenumber=1#post467713638 And here you can see the precise post where peas earned his av.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 15:33
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:
Emphasis mine. This is getting really explicit, ain't it? But do you think he means "Sayo" and "Shannon", or "Shannon" and "Kanon"? Or maybe he's referring to Shannon and Battler, and how they were as kids? But then, if that were the case, he would have said that after bringing up Battler, so I feel that rules Shannon and Battler out. Are we still discussing if Shannon considers her life as Sayo as a separate entity from Shannon? Because that line is both damning and confusing to me. But at the same time, it's really adorable that Shannon accepted his proposal immediately. I'd conjecture more about this, but I'm busy right now, so I'll just leave on one final note, ProfessorProf posted:
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 16:30
|
|
"...That's very sad. So, you could never love a human without proof given to you by a witch."
|
 I wonder what George's username is.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 17:03
|
|
|
Man, yeah, they continue to lay it on real thick for episode 6 of 8. George's story does imply that 6 years ago there were other servant girls around that age besides Shannon. So it's time to commence wild speculation. Assuming Shannon and Kanon do not inhabit the same body, but that weird conversation from earlier still has to make sense. What if, rather than Kanon being a teenage boy who occasionally wears a dress to play with Maria/taunt Battler from a balcony, Kanon is a long-time servant girl who started working as a boy three years ago? It would explain having a connection to Battler but not working there until he left. And if Kanon, for whatever reason, required Shannon's support to continue living and working as he does, it would explain how Shannon quitting her job to live with George would make Kanon's love impossible. I have nothing to satisfy Knox's 8th on this one, but it's better to throw out weird theories than to stop thinking altogether.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 17:22
|
|
|
^^ Yeah, maybe! So it seems that Georgie used to be a bit of an MRA in his youth... and even now, there are still some things he says and does that feel kinda... uh, "Nice Guy"-ish, for lack of a better term. Not judging, he wouldn't be the first guy to fall into the chivalry trap- it took me a while to realize that the pedestal that men are encouraged to place women on is really more like a cage with soundproofed bars, and even I slip up sometimes- but weird ideas of courtship aside, he does seem to be doing better now, and "Hey, maybe people shouldn't be judged for how well they fit into social mores regarding gender" isn't a bad take away. bman in 2288 posted:Emphasis mine. This is getting really explicit, ain't it? But do you think he means "Sayo" and "Shannon", or "Shannon" and "Kanon"? Or maybe he's referring to Shannon and Battler, and how they were as kids? But then, if that were the case, he would have said that after bringing up Battler, so I feel that rules Shannon and Battler out. I'm pretty sure he was referring to Shannon and Battler there, but there was something else about all that that seems weird- why would Shannon struggle to remember what made George jealous if there actually was something between them? Like, the promise made to Shannon about the white horse is real and provides a solid motivation, but... have we misread Shannon's relationship to Battler completely? Maybe she wasn't much into him back then... but in that case why participate in the murders? If she really was a "mask" for Beatrice, there's no way she would have forgot... or did she repress it for some other reason? I don't really wanna consider the other angles there, about multiple personalities, merely because of how cliché it would be... so suddenly, I'm leaning back toward Kanon being Beatrice again. Are we sure he wasn't pretending to be Shannon when Battler had his fling with "her"? That would slot nicely into some of the weird things that still surround Kanon, particularly the way he acted when he first met Battler... if he is in fact a "he," of course, which is not confirmed.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 17:33
|
|
|
Yeah, I thought it was talking about Shannon and Battler. Maybe this is a love triangle issue.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 18:02
|
|
|
George saying that he wanted revenge on Shannon, and then wanting wanting to marry her and have kids and have her for as long as she is alive makes me think that this is the reason why George gets murdered everytime. Shannon deserves not living on this hell island with these creeps.  (of course I just got done watching the movie Colossal yesterday, so that's maybe coloring my feelings of despair for characters being trapped with psychos with inferiority complexes...)Alternatively: Get George a fedora. Erika does raise a good point though. Everything that's not in red can't really be trusted, just as we were all being deceived by Shannon and Kanon being two separate people. However Dlanor did say that pieces on a game board can't make actions against their character, so it's reasonable to assume that George is indeed a somewhat messed up dude trying to patch it all up with the grand excuse of love. Interesting to note that at no point does the narration refer to Shannon as Sayo. Shannon, the work persona, picks a finger to place the engagement ring on, but not Sayo. Even when talking to George who they are about to be married to, Shannon still refers to George as "George-san", which is not at all personal or intimate. George-kun, or heck even just plain George would be more appropriate if they were truly in love. Shannon is not really into this. I'm starting to wonder Kanon and Jessica would be a healthier pair than this, but who knows, watch Jessica be just as messed up George.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 18:22
|
|
|
EagerSleeper posted:I'm starting to wonder Kanon and Jessica would be a healthier pair than this, but who knows, watch Jessica be just as messed up George. Is that even a question at this point? Jessica seems repressed, but nothing else, and at least she's working out the unhealthy bonds she lives under through the medium of (let's be honest, probably mediocre) punk.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 18:43
|
|
|
"I don't. People are allowed to think anything they want inside their hearts. In fact, I think you were all the more commendable for not letting it show on the outside." Well isn't that an interesting perspective, Shannon. It's commendable that even though he secretly hated them, he didn't let it show? I wonder, do you have experience in that area? Honestly this episode is laying it on so thick that it feels like a trap. Things that aren't on red aren't always real and so on. Oh, and while Jessica seems like she has fewer issues than George, George really isn't that bad ("I realized that I had nice guy syndrome and that I should try seriously courting a woman" is pretty reasonable). And a lot of what we have been shown has Kanon much more broken than Shannon - he takes being non-human way more seriously. Qrr fucked around with this message at 18:52 on May 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 18:49
|
|
|
I almost wonder if this was R07 trolling his fanbase. I mean, we've done this over months, but they'd have had years to put theories out there. There's no way that R07 didn't know about them. Presumably they must have made the same connections that we did. If so, this could deliberately be an elaborate tear down of a popular fan theory. Or maybe we're right and Shannon's Beatrice, and they're going to outright reveal it at the end of this episode. But if so, what would that even make the last two? E: Qrr posted:Oh, and while Jessica seems like she has fewer issues than George, George really isn't that bad ("I realized that I had nice guy syndrome and that I should try seriously courting a woman" is pretty reasonable). And a lot of what we have been shown has Kanon much more broken than Shannon - he takes being non-human way more seriously. I'm more worried about the power dynamics in that relationship than George's gooniness honestly. A 24 year old dating then marrying his (or at least his family's) 16 year old servant is not necessarily messed up (but likely is), and either way weirds me out. E2: Think about it! They must have started dating when she was 14 or 15 and he was 22 or 23! (Unless Shannon is the Cliff Baby and therefore not 16.) CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 18:59 on May 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 18:53
|
|
|
Thinking about it, if it takes non-red proof solely from episodes 5 or 6, we really shouldn't be using it as a basis for anything. We should be able to confirm it with evidence from previous episodes. ProfessorProf posted:
Looking at it contextually, I feel this pretty much has to be Battler. Shannon simply doesn't remember anything that would make George jealous because Battler never really saw Shannon as anything beyond a servant. The only thing we are told by Battler is that Shannon was also shy back then, and her body was completely different. Incredibly superficial, despite how much time they apparently spent together. ProfessorProf posted:
 "Bu~ut, food on this island must be reeeally nutritional, hmmmm? What are you eating, where are you training, to get boobs that big?~!! Let me feel them a bit and see whether yours or Jessica's are bigger, oka~ay?!"Nope, can't see it.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 19:10
|
|
"Oh? Has that happened to you too, Shannon?"
"Of course. One time, I wanted to catch a boy's eye so much, I tried to put on makeup even though I didn't know how and embarrassed myself... Eheheh, I remember a lot of embarrassing failures."
|
Cyouni posted:Looking at it contextually, I feel this pretty much has to be Battler. Shannon simply doesn't remember anything that would make George jealous because Battler never really saw Shannon as anything beyond a servant. The only thing we are told by Battler is that Shannon was also shy back then, and her body was completely different. Incredibly superficial, despite how much time they apparently spent together. How much time could they have spent together? Battler was there for what, 2 or 3 days a year? I can see this being a much bigger deal for her than him if she only ever gets to see outside people once a year, but I'm not surprised Battler's memory of it isn't that strong.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 19:16
|
|
|
 BORN TO AHAHAHA.WAV ISLAND IS A gently caress Kill Em All 1986 I am witch man 410,757,864,530 DEAD SCORPIONS
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 21:33
|
|
|
CottonWolf posted:How much time could they have spent together? Battler was there for what, 2 or 3 days a year? I can see this being a much bigger deal for her than him if she only ever gets to see outside people once a year, but I'm not surprised Battler's memory of it isn't that strong. Oh yeah, definitely. I'm more pointing out that Shannon failing to remember anything that would make George jealous in no way prevents her from being Beatrice.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 23:10
|
|
|
CottonWolf posted:How much time could they have spent together? Battler was there for what, 2 or 3 days a year? I can see this being a much bigger deal for her than him if she only ever gets to see outside people once a year, but I'm not surprised Battler's memory of it isn't that strong. Battler probably saw Shannon more than that since the its likely that Rudolf goes to Rokkenjima at times other than the family conference.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 23:16
|
|
|
CottonWolf posted:I almost wonder if this was R07 trolling his fanbase. I mean, we've done this over months, but they'd have had years to put theories out there. There's no way that R07 didn't know about them. Presumably they must have made the same connections that we did. If so, this could deliberately be an elaborate tear down of a popular fan theory. Or maybe we're right and Shannon's Beatrice, and they're going to outright reveal it at the end of this episode. But if so, what would that even make the last two? I will say that the parallels between this thread and the Umineko fanbase as it existed between 2009-2011 are pretty uncanny.
|
|
#
?
May 15, 2017 23:55
|
|
|
oath2order posted:I will say that the parallels between this thread and the Umineko fanbase as it existed between 2009-2011 are pretty uncanny. Well, some of the theories taking hold are coming up later than they were then; a lot of the ones just now getting posters who stand by them already had a steady faction behind them back around EP3/EP4. And, of course, no Moon-chan.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 00:27
|
|
|
Moon-chan? As in the moon in the sky?oath2order posted:I will say that the parallels between this thread and the Umineko fanbase as it existed between 2009-2011 are pretty uncanny. Is it okay if I ask what those parallels are? Is it the Shannon=Kanon thing?
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 00:48
|
|
|
EagerSleeper posted:Moon-chan? As in the moon in the sky? It's many, many things. I would say details at this point would be spoilers. They'd taint the sample if nothing else. Moon-chan is something I totally forgot about--it was basically the fandom nickname for Jessitrice.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 00:53
|
|
|
oath2order posted:It's many, many things. I would say details at this point would be spoilers. They'd taint the sample if nothing else. Although I'm confused how Jessica is associated with moons, it's fair enough to suspect her as Beatrice. I already suspected her as the phone caller from the last game. I thought that Moon-chan would be a tongue-in-cheek way to bypass the 18/17 human limit for Rokkenjima. 
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 01:03
|
|
|
Here is what Moon-chan was based upon - an official tarot card released with the anime blu-rays. They did cards for all the Major Arcana.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 01:18
|
|
|
Jessica is my second choice for Beatrice: somebody on the island six years ago, who would care about a promise Battler made, so they can be sinned against. Not many characters actually fit that. This thread hasn't nearly as much time to pick apart the stories, particularly once they're complete, so I'd expect different theories. On the other hand, that big dump of red text by Lambda, that hit every past arc, must have dynamited a bunch of speculation when it first came out. The last episode almost felt like the author striking back at Natsuhi theories.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 01:53
|
|
|
lotus circle posted:Here is what Moon-chan was based upon - an official tarot card released with the anime blu-rays. They did cards for all the Major Arcana. The fact is, the Moon arcana stands for deception and hidden things; pretty much the opposite of everything that was known about Jessica at the time those cards are released, which split the discussion into people finding reasons she might fit and people who thought that the people who made the anime didn't know or care what they were doing. Therefore, Moon-chan became the name for the Jessica culprit (usually with some servant or another as an accomplice) theory.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 02:47
|
|
|
Fates End posted:The fact is, the Moon arcana stands for deception and hidden things; pretty much the opposite of everything that was known about Jessica at the time those cards are released, which split the discussion into people finding reasons she might fit and people who thought that the people who made the anime didn't know or care what they were doing. Therefore, Moon-chan became the name for the Jessica culprit (usually with some servant or another as an accomplice) theory. Were the other cards assigned with reasonable character/arcana associations? I'd look it up, but spoilers.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 04:22
|
|
|
Poltergrift posted:Were the other cards assigned with reasonable character/arcana associations? Not really no. The Fool: Rosa The Magician: Maria and Sakutaro The High Priestess: Kyrie The Empress: Natsuhi and Eva The Emperor: Battler The Hierophant: Ange The Lovers: George and Shannon The Chariot: Mammon, Beelzebub, Asmodeus Strength: Amakusa The Hermit: Virgilla Wheel of Fortune: Lambdadetla and Bernkastel Justice: Battler The Hanged Man: Kanon Death: Eva-Beatrice Temperance: Shannon The Devil: Ronove The Tower: Lucifer, Satan, Leviathan, Belphegor The Star: Gaap The Moon: Jessica The Sun: Maria Judgement: All four Cheister sisters The World: Beatrice It's pretty clear that most of the choices were based off looking cool or a surface level glance at the tarot names. There's a fanart set that I feel works better but can't link it. Spoilers. Dr Pepper fucked around with this message at 04:41 on May 16, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 04:39
|
|
|
I'm extremely disappointed Battler wasn't the Magician. It'd go perfectly with his name.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 05:14
|
|
|
welll they are both blonde. somehow. I'm digging this new and smashing theory.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 05:23
|
|
|
Dr Pepper posted:There's a fanart set that I feel works better but can't link it. Spoilers. If it's the one I'm thinking of, then yeah, it works way better and it's prettier to boot. (Better typography too. Going all caps with calligraphy-style fonts is a major no-no.)
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 05:49
|
|
|
BurningStone posted:Jessica is my second choice for Beatrice: somebody on the island six years ago, who would care about a promise Battler made, so they can be sinned against. Not many characters actually fit that. I want to try narrowing this down from the start, who was there six years ago and is also there now? Crossed out people are not there at the reunion alive. I find it unlikely that an adult at this time held such a strong promise with Battler, but thats just too close minded for this so I'll just cross out Natsuhi since it's in red text shes innocent sans adopted child and redshirt servant. It all seems to be about some promise of something and revenge for forgetting it, so I'll narrow this down to who has the least screen time. Kumasawa is Beatrice, we've all been bamboozled by Virgilia.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 09:16
|
|
|
We're missing a possibility there. It's possible that Battler's promise wasn't to whoever is now Beatrice, and they're acting on behalf of the promisee. It's hard to see how that would work (outside of Shannon acting for Kanon or vice versa) but I'm pretty sure it's not been ruled out.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 12:43
|
|
|
Her goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either. However Battler's promise lead to the killings, it wasn't about revenge. I'm convinced at this point that whoever the culprit, these serial closed-room murders are a gift to the puzzle-loving Battler. PS. Prof, tiistai made a super handy compilation of red truths, is there any way a link to it could find it's way into the OP somewhere?
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 16:06
|
|
|
CottonWolf posted:We're missing a possibility there. It's possible that Battler's promise wasn't to whoever is now Beatrice, and they're acting on behalf of the promisee. It's hard to see how that would work (outside of Shannon acting for Kanon or vice versa) but I'm pretty sure it's not been ruled out. I thought we had red that Beatrice was sinned against, or Battler's sin personally hurt her, not that she was outraged by a sin against somebody else. If that restriction is lifted, Kanon becomes a candidate. A really good one. A related point: when Battler tells Beatrice to say that people only died because of his sin, she can't. That tells us there are multiple murder conspiracies. Just in case somebody thought they might get out alive.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 23:00
|
|
|
BurningStone posted:I thought we had red that Beatrice was sinned against, or Battler's sin personally hurt her, not that she was outraged by a sin against somebody else. If that restriction is lifted, Kanon becomes a candidate. A really good one. Declining to answer is not the same as being unable to answer. Five minutes later she flips the game board and tricks Battler into negating his own existence, so she'd clearly run out of patience with helping Battler figure poo poo out.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 23:19
|
|
|
BurningStone posted:I thought we had red that Beatrice was sinned against, or Battler's sin personally hurt her, not that she was outraged by a sin against somebody else. If that restriction is lifted, Kanon becomes a candidate. A really good one. The relevant red I recall is: Six years ago, no person called Beatrice existed for me. The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice. But we also don't quite know if for example Shannon is Beatrice, whether Shannon would count as Beatrice for that statement. Same inherited name/alternate personality/whatever thing that has been a major part of our theories thus far. So in my example, both Shannon and Kanon would theoretically be viable suspects.
|
|
#
?
May 16, 2017 23:56
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:Declining to answer is not the same as being unable to answer. Five minutes later she flips the game board and tricks Battler into negating his own existence, so she'd clearly run out of patience with helping Battler figure poo poo out. They aren't the same, but she's trying to hammer on Battler there, and I'd expect her to say it if she could. And cackle. I think it's enough to count as a Clue.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2017 00:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 01:26 |
|
|
BurningStone posted:They aren't the same, but she's trying to hammer on Battler there, and I'd expect her to say it if she could. And cackle. I think it's enough to count as a Clue. She wasn't hammering on him, she just was just done playing along with his attempts to dodge the question of whether he remembers his sin or not and trying to deny he did anything wrong. She's given him enough hints already and it's becoming clearer with every word he says that Battler isn't going to remember. Which means the whole game has been pointless and she shall cackle no more forever. e: I went looking through the archive for a CG of sad Beatrice alone in a hallway and, having failed to find it, am starting to wonder if I hallucinated the drat thing.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2017 01:35
|
|