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Paul Zuvella posted:Derek Jeter was a "below average" hitter for literally 3 seasons. His first, his last, and 2010. I didn't say "below average hitter", I said "below average player". Derek Jeter's WAA: 2010: -0.7 2011: -0.9 2012: -0.3 2013: -0.9 2014: -1.9 Any more questions?
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May 15, 2017 19:40
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yeah, that shortstop sure was garbage for his 36-40 age seasons
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May 15, 2017 19:42
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Poque posted:yeah, that shortstop sure was garbage for his 36-40 age seasons That's exactly my point. Other teams would have cut/benched/at the very least moved down the order a SS that age with that little production, but the Yankees didn't because they wanted him to get 3000 hits to boost his HoF credentials.
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May 15, 2017 19:46
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Julio Cruz posted:I didn't say "below average hitter", I said "below average player". You specifically mentioned batting "him at/near the top of the lineup" which super seems to imply that you were talking about hitting but yea, He was pretty bad at fielding in those later years. Julio Cruz posted:That's exactly my point. Other teams would have cut/benched/at the very least moved down the order a SS that age with that little production, but the Yankees didn't because they wanted him to get 3000 hits to boost his HoF credentials. What on earth does his defense have to do with him batting at the top of the order? He was legit the Yankees best option as a #2 dude, at least until Jacoby got there. "Derek we know you have an OBP of .360 but your defense is really bad so you're going to bat 8th" Paul Zuvella fucked around with this message at 19:49 on May 15, 2017 |
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May 15, 2017 19:46
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Julio Cruz posted:I didn't say "below average hitter", I said "below average player". Yet he still put up a 30.4 career WAA. That's higher than Ernie Banks and only 7 below Robin Yount. He's also got a 57.0 JAWS, for whatever that's worth. Also Honus Wagner had a career WAA of 92.0.  Julio Cruz posted:That's exactly my point. Other teams would have cut/benched/at the very least moved down the order a SS that age with that little production, but the Yankees didn't because they wanted him to get 3000 hits to boost his HoF credentials. What does this have to do with anything? Inspector_666 fucked around with this message at 19:50 on May 15, 2017 |
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May 15, 2017 19:48
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Inspector_666 posted:What does this have to do with anything? Naw man the yankees should have started *checks roster* Eduardo Nunez! But seriously, taking defense into consideration when putting together a batting order may be one of the stupidest things I've ever seen posted here.
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May 15, 2017 19:51
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Aside from the obvious stuff they pointed out Jeter was in very, very little danger of not getting 3000 hits by 2010 no matter where he was in the lineup, as long as he was getting playing time. Jesus Christ your argument is bad when I feel compelled to defend Derek Jeter.
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May 15, 2017 19:53
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Paul Zuvella posted:Naw man the yankees should have started *checks roster* I mean, he's right that Jeter probably shouldn't have been hitting in the 2-spot those years but I still fail to see how that reflects poorly on him, he wasn't a player-manager.
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May 15, 2017 19:54
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Paul Zuvella posted:You specifically mentioned batting "him at/near the top of the lineup" which super seems to imply that you were talking about hitting but yea, He was pretty bad at fielding in those later years. How many other 94 OPS+ players are locked into a top 2 batting spot for 5 seasons? Paul Zuvella posted:What on earth does his defense have to do with him batting at the top of the order? He was legit the Yankees best option as a #2 dude, at least until Jacoby got there. Yankees with a higher OPS+ than Jeter, 2010-2014: 2010 Mark Teixeira, 124 2010 Robinson Cano, 141 2010 Alex Rodriguez, 123 2010 Brett Gardner, 105 2010 Curtis Granderson, 108 2010 Nick Swisher, 129 2010 Jorge Posada, 115 2011 Mark Teixeira, 121 2011 Robinson Cano, 133 2011 Alex Rodriguez, 119 2011 Curtis Granderson, 142 2011 Nick Swisher, 120 2012 Mark Teixeira, 115 2012 Robinson Cano, 148 2012 Curtis Granderson, 115 2012 Nick Swisher, 125 2014 Brian McCann, 94 2014 Mark Teixeira, 101 2014 Brian Roberts, 87 2014 Brett Gardner, 111 2014 Jacoby Ellsbury, 111 2014 Ichiro Suzuki, 89 2014 Carlos Beltran, 98
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May 15, 2017 19:55
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Imagine how much better those Yankees would have been with Major League Leadoff Hitter Alcides Escobar at SS.
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May 15, 2017 19:55
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Julio Cruz posted:How many other 94 OPS+ players are locked into a top 2 batting spot for 5 seasons? Ok but what does his place in the order have to do with Jeter? This is a criticism of Joe Girardi.
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May 15, 2017 19:56
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Batting order should be determined by fielding position. Pitcher bats first, right fielder bats ninth. 
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May 15, 2017 19:58
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Inspector_666 posted:Ok but what does his place in the order have to do with Jeter? This is a criticism of Joe Girardi. And the Yankees organization in general, yes. My point is that Jeter's HoF case is based on his counting numbers, and the Yankees helped boost those numbers by not benching/cutting him when he was not a very good player any more, and that a non-Yankee Jeter has a much tougher argument for HoF consideration.
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May 15, 2017 19:59
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bewbies posted:Imagine how much better those Yankees would have been with Major League Leadoff Hitter Alcides Escobar at SS. He's been on fire since the switch! He's in danger of reaching the Mendoza line if he keeps it up! e: I had to look up what on fire is for Escobar (this is actually a thing people are saying, that he's been much much better as a leadoff hitter). And I guess he is much better. .226/.226/.258. Grittybeard fucked around with this message at 20:03 on May 15, 2017 |
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May 15, 2017 19:59
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Julio Cruz posted:And the Yankees organization in general, yes. My point is that Jeter's HoF case is based on his counting numbers, and the Yankees helped boost those numbers by not benching/cutting him when he was not a very good player any more, and that a non-Yankee Jeter has a much tougher argument for HoF consideration. I think you're dead wrong about the last part. His WAR and WAA and JAWS numbers are very, very good for shortstops.
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May 15, 2017 20:01
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Derek Jeter only had 358 stolen bases for 1082 walks. So personally I think he's poo poo.
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May 15, 2017 20:01
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Isn't the difference between the worst lineup and the best lineup construction like 1 or 2 wins? None of the years in question would have made any difference if the Yankees had 2 more wins on the year.
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May 15, 2017 20:01
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Inspector_666 posted:I mean, he's right that Jeter shouldn't have been hitting in the 2-spot those years but I still fail to see how that reflects poorly on him, he wasn't a player-manager.  Let's take a look. Most managers use OBP as the key factors as to who bats 1/2. 2009: Highest OBP on the team. 2010: No argument here! He is bad! 2011: 4th Highest OBP on the team, behind Gardy (who typically batted first, A-Rod and Swisher) 2012: 3rd Highst OP on the team behind Cano and Swisher 2013: He barely played so who cares 2013: His retirement party. Now, why exactly is it such an issue that he was batting 2nd? Julio Cruz posted:And the Yankees organization in general, yes. My point is that Jeter's HoF case is based on his counting numbers, and the Yankees helped boost those numbers by not benching/cutting him when he was not a very good player any more, and that a non-Yankee Jeter has a much tougher argument for HoF consideration. He is the 10th greatest shortstop in the history of the game by WAR and 14th by JAWS
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May 15, 2017 20:02
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Julio Cruz posted:And the Yankees organization in general, yes. My point is that Jeter's HoF case is based on his counting numbers, and the Yankees helped boost those numbers by not benching/cutting him when he was not a very good player any more, and that a non-Yankee Jeter has a much tougher argument for HoF consideration. Goddamn dude he'd have been an easy hall of famer if he'd played in San Diego and retired in 2010
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May 15, 2017 20:05
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even if you pull out his last five years he's still good enough for the 12th best SS all time in fWAR, and that's unfairly (imo) pulling out his legit 2012
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May 15, 2017 20:05
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Inspector_666 posted:I think you're dead wrong about the last part. His WAR and WAA and JAWS numbers are very, very good for shortstops. On the JAWS leaderboard he's in between Alan Trammell, who was never voted into the HoF, and Barry Larkin, who was 3rd ballot. e: in no way am I suggesting that he's not a HoFer. I'll quote my original post again here because people seem to have missed it: quote:Jeter's a HoFer, but I think it's fair to say he wouldn't be a first-ballot near-unanimous guy if he wasn't a Yankee.
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May 15, 2017 20:06
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Julio Cruz posted:On the JAWS leaderboard he's in between Alan Trammell, who was never voted into the HoF, and Barry Larkin, who was 3rd ballot. Oh my god he is between a dude on the hall of fame and another dude who should be in the hall of fame. Call the loving presses we have a story here! You have to know your audience here, dude. People either think that a dude in a hall of famer or not, no one really cares if he is "near unanimous" or not except for the dumbass writers who vote on this poo poo. You know who else should be a near unanimous hall of famer? Curt Schilling, and that dude is a loving rear end in a top hat and I hate him. Paul Zuvella fucked around with this message at 20:11 on May 15, 2017 |
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May 15, 2017 20:09
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Paul Zuvella posted:Oh my god he is between a dude on the hall of fame and another dude who should be in the hall of fame. Neither of whom were first-ballot and neither of whom got anywhere loving near the 95%+ that Jeter is most likely going to get.
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May 15, 2017 20:10
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Probably because the voters don't just sort by WAA and click button. I kind of do think that "intangibles" should matter for voting consideration.,
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May 15, 2017 20:11
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It would seem that the root of your issue is how people vote on the Baseball hall of fame, not Derek Jeter.
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May 15, 2017 20:14
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My issue, which I keep having to come back to, is that Jeter's case is better for him having been a Yankee than it would be had he been on another team. This is clearly not his fault and I certainly have never said I blame him for it.
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May 15, 2017 20:18
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JEEEEEEEEETERRRRRRRR!!!!
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May 15, 2017 20:19
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Julio Cruz posted:My issue, which I keep having to come back to, is that Jeter's case is better for him having been a Yankee than it would be had he been on another team. This is clearly not his fault and I certainly have never said I blame him for it. yeah but is the difference between him being an 8th ballot guy or a 1st ballot guy really that big of a deal?
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May 15, 2017 20:21
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Julio Cruz posted:My issue, which I keep having to come back to, is that Jeter's case is better for him having been a Yankee than it would be had he been on another team. This is clearly not his fault and I certainly have never said I blame him for it. If you're implying that there might be some sort of bias towards the Yankees when it comes to HOF/broadcasting/media exposure than you truly are insane.
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May 15, 2017 20:21
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YEAH JEETS he was pretty good at baseballing
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May 15, 2017 20:21
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Gas this thread
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May 15, 2017 20:24
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It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Amazingly Good Baseballers. Jeets definitely gets in for that despite being a lovely shortstop with a good bat.
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May 15, 2017 20:24
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How about nobody gets in until Bonds does because it's a loving travesty.
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May 15, 2017 20:26
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All this Jeter talk and WAR made me wonder what Chipper's was, since he also spent his entire career with one team (and I'm a dirty homer). Turns out Chipper is 6th all time among third basemen and the only three guys in the top ten NOT in the HOF are Chipper, Adrian Beltre and Scott Rolen, who weren't/aren't eligible for the HOF yet. Chipper and Rolen are eligible this year. Chipper is first ballot and anyone who says differently should shove themselves in a locker.
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May 15, 2017 20:27
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Joey Freshwater posted:All this Jeter talk and WAR made me wonder what Chipper's was, since he also spent his entire career with one team (and I'm a dirty homer). Turns out Chipper is 6th all time among third basemen and the only three guys in the top ten NOT in the HOF are Chipper, Adrian Beltre and Scott Rolen, who weren't/aren't eligible for the HOF yet. Chipper and Rolen are eligible this year. Scott Rolen maybe had the most boringly great career.
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May 15, 2017 20:29
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Explosionface posted:It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Amazingly Good Baseballers. Jeets definitely gets in for that despite being a lovely shortstop with a good bat.
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May 15, 2017 20:29
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ego symphonic posted:Hot take: Mike Trout is already a HoF player. Technically he's not, he needs ten years of Major League service time first. 
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May 15, 2017 20:34
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Spoeank posted:Pujols unanimous? I mean, when's the last time you have ever seen 11 straight years of absolute dominance that wasn't Barry Bonds. Pujols first 11 years were absolutely insane. Trout is doing it right now but still needs to do it for 6 more years. Seriously, Pujols placed top 5 MVP 10 of the 11 years. Winning it 3 times and placing second 4 times. Obviously Barry should have been unanimous (and in the HoF already), but roids. Unanimous will never happen though because people are stupid. Pujols should absolutely be unanimous, as well as the other people mentioned so far. Edit: Like, Pujols is arguably the greatest right handed first baseman ever. If Lou Gherig didn't exist, he would arguably be the greatest first baseman ever. He will also be the third person ever to hit 3,000 and 600 barring some sort of absolute death sentence. Thom P. Tiers fucked around with this message at 20:55 on May 15, 2017 |
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May 15, 2017 20:35
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Joey Freshwater posted:Chipper is first ballot and anyone who says differently should shove themselves in a locker. I think he probably will be, but who knows. He definitely gets in at some point no matter what though. I'm more worried about Rolen because Paul Zuvella posted:Scott Rolen maybe had the most boringly great career.
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May 15, 2017 20:40
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I think unanimous voting will happen a lot more now that the votes will be public. When Griffey was inducted there were three voters that didn't vote for him, but no one ever admitted who it was. e: that's not to say that Chipper will be unanimous, just a general statement. I think he gets the 75% easy though.
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May 15, 2017 20:41
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