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I remember liking Mantis in the relatively modern space books but if you told me those weren't connected characters I would believe you. I assumed she was an alien and was quirky weird.
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May 15, 2017 16:49
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That version of Mantis looks and acts completely different so they might as well be unrelated characters.
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May 16, 2017 06:00
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oh poo poo I completely missed a chance to shittalk mantis as someone who recently read the entirety of avengers up until the late 80's I can say with some certainty that she suuuuucks
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May 16, 2017 15:47
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The only other Avenger who sucks as much as Mantis is Dr. Druid, but that guy sucks so much that it's kind of endearing. Like his entire life is just an endless series of fuckups, but he still acts like Dr. Orpheus the whole time. Like this one time he came into Ghost Rider's comic, nearly killed him, exposed his secret identity, caused him to go into a rage that made him a wanted man and terrified his love interest, then when he finally figured out that he'd hosed up he just left while Blaze was passed out. Didn't even leave a "sorry I hosed up your entire life" note.
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May 16, 2017 15:50
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Lurdiak posted:The only other Avenger who sucks as much as Mantis is Dr. Druid, but that guy sucks so much that it's kind of endearing. Like his entire life is just an endless series of fuckups, but he still acts like Dr. Orpheus the whole time. Like this one time he came into Ghost Rider's comic, nearly killed him, exposed his secret identity, caused him to go into a rage that made him a wanted man and terrified his love interest, then when he finally figured out that he'd hosed up he just left while Blaze was passed out. Didn't even leave a "sorry I hosed up your entire life" note. 
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May 16, 2017 17:27
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Yes, Hawkeye is definitely the only guy who misses him.
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May 16, 2017 17:57
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Remember when Doctor Druid was like the one chauvinist character who tut tutted and complained about Monica Rambeau (or later She-Hulk) being in charge of the Avengers because he was RIGHT THERE with all of his experience and maleness to do the job? Remember then how he got seduced by Nebula and destroyed the team and got lost in the timestream? Say what you will about Doctor Druid, but he was at least an interesting character with whom they really leaned into "unlikeable jerk" and paid off the story within a year or so.
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May 16, 2017 18:31
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Blockhouse posted:oh poo poo I completely missed a chance to shittalk mantis Go re-read the beginning of Englehart's 80's Silver Surfer series to reinforce that certainty. Even as a little kid, the "this one" garbage got real old real fast.
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May 16, 2017 18:41
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So what made Dr Druid worth it enough to be in the Avengers? Did he have some crazy strong power or what?
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May 16, 2017 19:21
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He was a pretty powerful mystic guy. Just not Strange-tier.
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May 16, 2017 19:22
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Dr Druid's real name is Dr Droom.
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May 16, 2017 19:29
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Light Gun Man posted:So what made Dr Druid worth it enough to be in the Avengers? Did he have some crazy strong power or what? He was there. No, seriously; he basically showed up during the Siege Of Avengers Mansion arc and went "hey, this is hosed up, let me see if I can help" and he did, so poof, Avenger. Having said that, dude was a fairly powerful mystic; it's not like he made the team weaker (he sucked, but that's because of his characterization, not his abilities).
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May 16, 2017 20:09
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Edge & Christian posted:Remember then how he got seduced by Nebula and destroyed the team and got lost in the timestream? Man, Nebula was such a terrible character.
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May 16, 2017 20:31
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:He was there. That's kinda hilarious. Maybe the writers always intended him to be the lovely guy?
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May 16, 2017 20:53
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He definitely was that role for a lot of the time. Secret Defenders for example.
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May 16, 2017 21:02
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:He was there. He basically distracted Zemo long enough to kids sorta weaken his hold over Blackout. Once Blackout died from brain problems, the mansion came back from the dark force dimension and Captain Marvel whooped some rear end. His whole deal was low-level mind powers and illusion casting. He was also part of the worst Avengers lineup of all time: Captain Marvel Black Knight Sub-Mariner Marrina Dr Druid She-Hulk
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May 16, 2017 21:43
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Regarding Mantis and "this one," I think that's meant to be a Western interpretation of how Chinese nobles spoke in the late 1800's ala Thomas Burke's Quong Lee character (I think, or at least other examples of Burke's work). "This one" is meant to be excessively polite and selfless, so I could see Englehart reaching for that. I never realized how strongly Engelhart tied himself to Mantis, is she an ideal to him or more who he sees himself as? Does anyone really know (or care)? Lurdiak posted:Man, Nebula was such a terrible character. What was/is Nebula like compared to the films?
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May 16, 2017 23:02
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I liked the art on the book during Dr. Druid's tenure, I'll say that much. It had a sort of firm, Steve Epting clarity to it. I'd like to say I was surprised by the hatred of Dr. Druid and how it escalated over time, but then I remember there's a backup story in one of the "Atlantis Attacks" annuals where they had Wasp and She-Hulk female-gazing at all the male Avengers and rating them on a 1-10 scale and they gave Druid a flat, hate-filled "1."
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May 16, 2017 23:14
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:I never realized how strongly Engelhart tied himself to Mantis, is she an ideal to him or more who he sees himself as? Does anyone really know (or care)? There are a lot of writers from the same period who went heavy into a single character to the point where it got pretty farcical; Tony Isabella is still pretty hype on Black Lightning, Jim Starlin has his thing for Warlock and Thanos, Steve Gerber had Howard the Duck, etc. I think Englehart's only noteworthy in that his pocket character didn't really get over with the audience, either while he was there or in the period afterward. SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:What was/is Nebula like compared to the films? A ranting psychopath warlord without any real depth of character.
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May 16, 2017 23:18
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:I never realized how strongly Engelhart tied himself to Mantis, is she an ideal to him or more who he sees himself as? Does anyone really know (or care)? It's a character he liked writing for a story he wanted to tell. Doesn't have to get any deeper than that. Self-identification is not necessary for a writer to say "hey I have this cool character I created and I don't feel like I got to tell their story on my last book so I'm bringing them over to this book so I can try and tell the story I want to tell."
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May 16, 2017 23:56
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Steve Englehart was only 25 when he started writing the Avengers and was definitely in the "young dudes take drugs and read Herman Hesse and watch a bunch of Kung Fu movies" axis of guys from mid-1970s Marvel. Mantis was his first original character, and Englehart was clearly a dude into the whole Continutiy of the Marvel Universe (his early work also brought Patsy Walker over from being in an old teen comic, continued Roy Thomas's trend of reintroducing Golden Age heroes in the modern Marvel Universe, he did the first crossover between the old Western characters and modern heroes) so it's kind of understandable on some level why he'd be so attached to his first "real" contribution to the MARVEL UNIVERSE he so admired. It's just a shame he didn't have a better first idea? Here's an interview from two weeks ago with an older and wiser Steve Englehart about Mantis: quote:Well, she is my first creation. Maybe not the absolute first but the first sort of major one and maybe the first for all I know.. I mean the deal was I was writing The Avengers and I thought they needed to be shaken up and I had this idea of bringing in a sort of femme fatale character who would seduce all the male Avengers and cause dissension and so forth, and that was Mantis. Also "Doctor Druid is kind of an rear end in a top hat" was at the very least subtext for a decent part of Stern's run (he was introduced in the last year or so and didn't do all that much before Stern quit/was fired off of the book) and Walt Simonson made it text. It's been awhile since I re-read Stern's Avengers run but in retrospect he wielded a well-meaning but incredibly heavy hand in terms of having literally every Good Guy (Cap, Thor, Silver Surfer, Jarvis, random police officers and firefighters, grandpas, kindly old bankers) say something every drat issue regarding Wasp/She-Hulk/Monica Rambeau to the effect of "That's a strong and attractive woman -- no, a STRONG PERSON. She's every bit as heroic and capable as me!" There's an issue where a cabbie wolf-whistles at She-Hulk and then tells her she shouldn't wear those shorts if she doesn't want to get whistled at and She-Hulk smashes the front of his cab and Cap and Thor sort of stand to the side going "that's on you for being a pig, man" There's a weird bit of dialogue where some old white government agent dude basically narrates an entire interaction with Monica along the lines of "I thought I'd miss working with Captain America but Captain Marvel is just as strong and thoughtful as him! She gives me hope for the younger generation! If I were forty years younger, I'd want to marry her!" So when Doctor Druid shows up and is immediately "so uh, why are we letting Wasp be the leader again? Some dippy broad with wings? Oh, she's stepping down? Fantastic, I'll be happy to take over and -- CAPTAIN MARVEL? HER? REALLY?" it's pretty clear authorial marking that he's a dick.
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May 17, 2017 00:17
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One story I've heard is that Simonson (or perhaps one of his successors) was instructed not only to remove Monica from the Avengers chair in favour of Captain America, but to do it in such a way that Monica was explicitly shown as being a less-capable leader than Cap and indeed was herself convinced that it would be better for him to take over. Is there any grain of truth in that story?
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May 17, 2017 00:58
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Doctor Druid is essentially early Hawkeye. The first couple of years Hawkeye is in the team the only reason he doesn't get kicked out by Captain America for being a dickhole is because the team sucks as it is and there's nobody to take his place.
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May 17, 2017 01:11
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I mean, Monica because Avengers chairperson in Avengers 279 (written by Stern) and stays chairperson for the whole of Stern's run. Steve Rogers leaves the team in Avengers 284, and Stern leaves partway through issue 287. Ralph Macchio fills in as the writer from 287-290, and 290 has a plot assist from Mark Gruenwald where he is literally whisked into the scene by a Cosmic Cube and he beats some newfangled Super Adaptoid because it cannot adapt TO HIS SPIRIT AND COURAGE. The story set up by Stern (with a bunch of different AI characters) is abruptly resolved with that, and Simonson picks up with issue 291, where Steve Rogers is gone without any mention and Monica is still the chairperson. In Walt Simonson's short run Doctor Druid (being manipulated by Nebula) manipulates the team into voting for him to replace an injured Captain Marvel (who tried something or other to stop Marrina/LEVIATHAN from destroying the East Coast and was left a withered, nearly dead husk as a result) as the new chairman, but by that point the team was down to Black Knight, She-Hulk, Thor, and Doctor Druid. Within three issues the entire team disbands after Black Knight goes into a BLOOD CURSE coma and She-Hulk and Thor realize what Druid is up to, so it certainly isn't portrayed as Druid (or anyone else) being "better" than her. I know that Marvel Age ran a story about how Roger Stern wanted to bring back Luke Cage (who hadn't appeared for a few years and ended Power Man/Iron FIst framed for the murder of Iron Fist) and hinted at resurrecting Iron Fist and having them both join the Avengers (back in 1988) but he left the book before that happened. I had assumed for years that this was the conflict that got him fired off of the book, but the most directly I've seen Stern address the issue is this quote from an old interview: quote:I’d disagreed with one editorial suggestion about the Avengers line-up. My editor wanted a change that I thought distasteful, and I sent him a memo to that effect. I would have liked to have discussed the matter further, but I was never given a chance. Instead, I received a message that I was fired. That certainly *could* be something like what you described, as it would have been distasteful as heck. He confirms over here that the "distasteful" changes involved Monica Rambeau, so you're probably right. In the back of Avengers 288, Mark Gruenwald says this about the departure: quote:Sometimes mid-April, I had Roger fly into New York for a conference to map out the next year's Avengers storyline and coordinate them with our two component books Captain America and Thor. In an afternoon long session attended by the various concerned writers and editors we worked out what I thought would be an interesting, innovative direction. It seemed like all participants agreed. [b]However, when Roger got back home and began to work out the specific details of the scenario, he reported that he couldn't come up with any way to make the scenario work without doing injustices to some of the characters involved. The bottom line was that he didn't want to proceed with the story line we all discussed ... Something had to give. I informed Roger that I wanted to proceed with the agreed-upon story line and thus, would hire another writer who could get behind the scenario and do it justice. I'm not really sure what that storyline was (I guess the Walt Simonson death-and-rebirth of the Avengers??) but it sounds like it went through so many revisions from pitch meeting to print that it wasn't nearly the character assassination of Monica Rambeau as it might have originally been.
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May 17, 2017 01:30
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If I recall, Monica getting de-leadered was Gruenwald's idea. Not because he had anything against her, but he was a big fan of the classic kind of Avengers lineup where Cap is the ostensible leader, supported by Thor and Iron Man.SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:What was/is Nebula like compared to the films? She was a space pirate/warlord who took over Thanos' old army and claimed to be his daughter. That part's fine, it's actually kind of fun. But she would repeatedly outsmart and seduce everyone in every story she appeared in despite having no real guile, it was more that everyone just started acting retarded around her. She bamboozled and usurped a gigantic army made of hundreds of Kangs from different timelines, she mindfucked Dr. Druid, she would routinely get her hands on macguffins because everyone else was too stupid to figure out she was playing them, etc. And it never felt earned, it never felt like "Ah, this character is tricky and crafty and they've done it again." it felt more like she was someone's pet character that would always win because she's so cool. The fact that she had no real personality beyond "Aha, I win suckers!" didn't help much. Lurdiak fucked around with this message at 18:56 on May 17, 2017 |
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May 17, 2017 10:21
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GPTribefan posted:
My go to in these situations is Classic Marvel Forever for their FASERIP stats. http://classicmarvelforever.com/cast/doctor_druid.htm A grab bag of psychic feats plus some druid themed 'control the Green' type stuff. Dr Strange he isn't.
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May 17, 2017 11:23
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Edge & Christian posted:I mean, Monica because Avengers chairperson in Avengers 279 (written by Stern) and stays chairperson for the whole of Stern's run. Steve Rogers leaves the team in Avengers 284, and Stern leaves partway through issue 287. Ralph Macchio fills in as the writer from 287-290, and 290 has a plot assist from Mark Gruenwald where he is literally whisked into the scene by a Cosmic Cube and he beats some newfangled Super Adaptoid because it cannot adapt TO HIS SPIRIT AND COURAGE. The story set up by Stern (with a bunch of different AI characters) is abruptly resolved with that, and Simonson picks up with issue 291, where Steve Rogers is gone without any mention and Monica is still the chairperson. I faithfully read the Avengers as young kid all through the Stern era, and thought the siege of the mansion was the greatest thing ever. Then the super adaptoid story ending the way it did sort of threw me for a loop. But I was back on Board for the Simonson run, which was marketed as "the end of the Avengers" and again, pre-teen me thought it was a cracking story. Then with Avengers #300 or #301, they changed the team, the approach, everything, gilgamesh was on the team and so was Reed Richards. I read a few more issues, but hated the change in direction. I also loved the New U, which got cancelled around that time. Between that and the Avengers, I basically said good bye to comics for about 20 years, missing the entire xtreme 90s. I guess my point is that Marvel editorial seemed to be really taking a poo poo around that time and it was only going to get worse.
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May 17, 2017 16:15
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I mean nobody really liked the Avengers living on that weird island and having a bunch of blue collar dudes working with them and Reed Richards joining the team, but I don't think any of that was due to editorial doing a bad job or whatever, it was an attempt to try something new that didn't really work out because the new setup didn't appeal to anyone. Disassembled/New Avengers was a similar kind of shake-up/risk that worked out a lot better, for example.
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May 17, 2017 16:21
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This is the first time I'm hearing about Dr. Druid but I already feel like he needs to be in the movies.
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May 17, 2017 16:23
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If they played up his incompetence even a little bit he'd make a great supporting character in Dr. Strange 2.
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May 17, 2017 16:29
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The Island stuff was later, the basic lineage of Avengers (which was also the first book I started collecting as a little kid, Seldom Posts!) was that Roger Stern took it over from Jim Shooter way back with issue 227 in late 1982. Over time he got sick of having his stuff derailed by whatever was going on in [Cap/Thor/Iron Man/whatever] and so he really leaned into having most of the team be b-listers without their own titles. This was when there was a whole lot of focus on Wasp, Captain Marvel, Black Knight, Hercules, Namor, Vision, Scarlet Witch, etc. Then came the whole "bring back Cap and Thor and show how they're the Real Best Avengers" edict and Stern quit after five years of actually pretty great superhero comics. Then Walt Simonson came in with the edict of dissolving the old team and bringing Cap and Thor back in, and I guess he was given Reed and Sue as a concession because they weren't being used in Englehart's Fantastic Four and Simonson had some FF-inspired cosmic ideas he wanted to do. But Simonson still wasn't having any fun with the book, and left like one issue into the new lineup. Lucky for Walt, Steve Englehart was in the middle of fighting with the FF office because they didn't want him to let Mantis take over the book, and soon after told him that they wanted him to bring back Reed and Sue, who he hated. By this point after some fill-ins John Byrne had taken over writing the Avengers, and he had no interest in using Reed and Sue because he was still bitter over whatever slights he perceived in the editors not letting him do his Doomwar story or whatever, so he'd quit FF a few years back which led to Englehart taking it over. All of this cleared the way for Walt Simonson's run on Fantastic Four, which was great, so whatever. Then after sixty consecutive issues of Stern/Milgrom/Buscema Avengers, then an abortive year-long Simonson/Buscema run, here's the writers lineup for Avengers #301-360 301-303: Macchio/Gruenwald 304: Danny Fingeroth 305-318: John Byrne 319-324: Fabian Nicieza 325: Mark Gruenwald 326-333: Larry Hama 334-339: Bob Harras 340: Scott Lobdell 341-342: Fabian Niceza 343-352: Bob Harras 353-355: Len Kaminski 356-360: Bob Harras Somehow (I was a child) I put up with all of this poo poo and kept buying the book. EDIT: Forgot why I actually posted. I was wrong, the Island stuff was at the verrrrry end of Stern's run, then the Island sank in Acts of Vengeance (during the Byrne run) and then someone or other put them back in the mansion after that. Though I could have sworn one of those lovely short runs in the 320s-330s took place on HYDROBASE
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May 17, 2017 18:50
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Lurdiak posted:If they played up his incompetence even a little bit he'd make a great supporting character in Dr. Strange 2.
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May 17, 2017 20:33
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Dr Spectrum. The Knock-off Green Lantern from the Squadron Supreme is the only one I can think of who that rule doesn't apply too. Entertainingly I think the reverse rule applies for DC. Dr(X)is never his actual name.
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May 17, 2017 21:08
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Curiously enough, I recall Simonson saying that he was given more freedom to use Iton Man and Thor in FF than he ever was in Avengers.
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May 17, 2017 21:08
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I really don't know what the between-office editorial communication was like, but Mark Gruenwald was Simonson's editor on Avengers, while Ralph Macchio was his editor on FF. Maybe the face of the menacing bureaucracy in the climax of his FF run wasn't quite as affectionate as I assumed as a kid. 
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May 17, 2017 21:16
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Edge & Christian posted:The Island stuff was later, the basic lineage of Avengers (which was also the first book I started collecting as a little kid, Seldom Posts!) was that Roger Stern took it over from Jim Shooter way back with issue 227 in late 1982. Over time he got sick of having his stuff derailed by whatever was going on in [Cap/Thor/Iron Man/whatever] and so he really leaned into having most of the team be b-listers without their own titles. This was when there was a whole lot of focus on Wasp, Captain Marvel, Black Knight, Hercules, Namor, Vision, Scarlet Witch, etc. Holy poo poo, Are you me?? Avengers was BY FAR my favorite book growing up. Siege of Avenger's Mansion is still my all time favorite story, and I could re-read the entire Stern run monthly and never get bored with it. He did so much with the Wasp and Black Knight, made Hercules a great character, completely invented captain marvel and elevated Monica to a HUGE status. He did an amazing Kang story, that great Olympus 5-parter after Siege, and even the start of the really cool "Heavy Metal" story, but what followed after Simonson (who essentially just took the abbreviated Time Bubble story and did it to perfection in his FF run) was just a clusterfuck. I stuck with that book until the end of the Proctor/Gatherers storyline and I just couldn't take any more. The biggest lowlights were: - The Danny Fingeroth "kinda sorta about immigration wink wink" fill in with the kid Portal that would later show up in Darkhawk - Rage! The black guy you should totally accept and totally was not a token!!! - the Len Kaminski Grim Reaper three parter - Sersi playing Mantis to Harras' Englehart - the atrocious Lobdell fill-in with the Wasp and Cap helping a kidnapped child. I liked Galactic Storm for the most part and the bi-weekly summer stuff like "Crossing Line" and "Collection Obsession" were pretty decent. Byrne's run was actually pretty awesome - used the Eternals, Nebula, Spider-Man, and handled the Acts of Vengeance stuff quite well. I really liked the Gatherers to a point, but the solo Quicksilver, Crystal, and Deathcry stuff that came afterwards was enough to make me stop. And Hydrobase didn't get rebuilt until around the New Avengers vol 3 era. They rebuilt the mansion and it quickly got destroyed and rebuilt like 3 times during the Hama/Harras era.
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May 17, 2017 21:23
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Deptfordx posted:My go to in these situations is Classic Marvel Forever for their FASERIP stats. Every resume I ever prepare from now on will include the line "Plant Control - Amazing"
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May 17, 2017 21:27
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Druid also has a popularity rating of 7. Captain America has 100. Spiderman. The guy who literally has his cities biggest newspaper running campaigns calling him a public menace has 30. He is slightly more popular than Namor's 5. But when you're barely edging out the guy who regularly declares war on the surface world. That's a PR mountain to climb.
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May 17, 2017 22:45
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Deptfordx posted:Dr Spectrum. The Knock-off Green Lantern from the Squadron Supreme is the only one I can think of who that rule doesn't apply too. The close-enough-to-be-the-exception is Dr. Simon Ecks, aka Doctor Double X.
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May 17, 2017 23:49
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I love Galactic Storm, maybe the first really great Marvel space story. Also Monica always sucked and keeps sucking
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May 18, 2017 02:00
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