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It's actually insane the degree to which the Labour Party has turned on Tony Blair. It's amazing they can be surprised they've done so poorly in recent elections. You don't poo poo all over your own guy, it's like the most basic thing.
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May 17, 2017 11:15
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Helsing posted:
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May 17, 2017 11:18
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my mum doesn't trust socialists because of tony blair (i have tried explaining to her that he isn't one really)
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May 17, 2017 11:22
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quote:Our poll also found that Brexit has galvanised support for May's party at the same time that it has split Labour's base. Essentially, the migrant politics of the last couple of decades, is leading to a fairly substantial long-term right-wing turn in europe. The UK is the first, but I fully expect that, in a couple of years, countries in the EU are just going to start threatening to bomb any refugee ships they see in the med.
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May 17, 2017 11:26
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rudatron posted:So Corbyn or not, it seems that Brexit hasn't had an 'even' effect of the UK political landscape - it's boosted the conservatives significantly while cutting labor up. That's totally nuts. There's a simple way to stop refugees and that's to help stop the humanitarian crises that are causing them to refugize
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May 17, 2017 11:30
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rudatron posted:So Corbyn or not, it seems that Brexit hasn't had an 'even' effect of the UK political landscape - it's boosted the conservatives significantly while cutting labor up. That's totally nuts. theres basically no way that the west doesn't immediately spiral into full fascism now once global warming causes a few more refugee crises right?
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May 17, 2017 11:32
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rudatron posted:So Corbyn or not, it seems that Brexit hasn't had an 'even' effect of the UK political landscape - it's boosted the conservatives significantly while cutting labor up. That's totally nuts. Hungary and Poland have pretty much straight up fascists in government. Sweden are on the verge of doing so while 35% of French voters voted for a fascist over Macron. Britain's political uniqueness in Europe is that the main centre-right party has totally embraced ethnic nationalists in a short term bid for power, not that it's had the biggest turn to the right in Europe
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May 17, 2017 11:36
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It's not clear exactly how many refugees climate crises are going to create. But I don't even think it's necessarily the introduction of more people that's the problem, it's the total failure to integrate the immigrants into the already existing culture & society. Essentially, all the people pushing hard on the 'multicultural' ideal of, everyone acting & becoming tolerant of new people showing up, who you have nothing in common with, have had their theory blown out of the loving water. The hasn't been a growing acceptance, there's been a massive counter-reaction, and it's bringing with it the rise of far-right politics in general.
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May 17, 2017 11:43
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rudatron posted:It's not clear exactly how many refugees climate crises are going to create. But I don't even think it's necessarily the introduction of more people that's the problem, it's the total failure to integrate the immigrants into the already existing culture & society. What's the solution? Refuse all migrants?
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May 17, 2017 11:49
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Helsing posted:
the vast majority of conservative votes are deffo not nazis, just people who think that it's the "common sense" party and that labour is bad at the economy, both pretty long standing british political stereotypes also that is some quality business insider trolling of blair
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May 17, 2017 11:56
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Lightning Lord posted:What's the solution? Refuse all migrants? So, if you had a time machine, went back 20 years, and changed policies around integration and migrants, you could probably accept the same number/group of migrants, minus the backlash, if you were more assertive about ensuring that the culture-clash was mitigated. As it is now, it might be too late - I'm not sure there's a quick-fix.
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May 17, 2017 12:06
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rudatron posted:Many migrants to America, at the turn of the 20th century, they would often change their names, to a more anglicized version, to try and better fit in. That's generally not seen as acceptable today with those who want migrants, assimilation is interpreted as kind of oppression, and so it's done away with. But the result of that, is that no integration takes place, which is causing the counter reaction we're seeing right now. i hear this american dude in a suit with a frog pin stuck to it and a slick haircut may have some quick fix ideas
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May 17, 2017 12:08
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rudatron posted:Many migrants to America, at the turn of the 20th century, they would often change their names, to a more anglicized version, to try and better fit in. That's generally not seen as acceptable today with those who want migrants, assimilation is interpreted as kind of oppression, and so it's done away with. But the result of that, is that no integration takes place, which is causing the counter reaction we're seeing right now. assimilation owns im glad im 100% american and 0% eastern-european
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May 17, 2017 12:20
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i don't know if integration actually matters. most of the people who support anti-immigrant parties live in almost entirely white towns, the only way they know about immigrants is through the media. most of these people are just straight up ethnic nationalists. only ethnic british people are british, and only british people get to use our public services/work here/live here at all
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May 17, 2017 12:27
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and i must meme posted:i don't know if integration actually matters. most of the people who support anti-immigrant parties live in almost entirely white towns, the only way they know about immigrants is through the media. that's p funny because i know lots of people who are second or third generation conservative voting turks or pakistanis or indians
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May 17, 2017 12:29
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the continuing adventures of boris johnson, diplomat extraordinaire 
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May 17, 2017 12:33
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:that's p funny because i know lots of people who are second or third generation conservative voting turks or pakistanis or indians I'm not sure they're voting for white nationalism tho
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May 17, 2017 12:39
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Lightning Lord posted:I'm not sure they're voting for white nationalism tho i dunno everyone i ask mostly insists on the usual why labour is bad tropes my turkish friends seem especially adamant about it though
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May 17, 2017 12:41
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and i must meme posted:i don't know if integration actually matters. most of the people who support anti-immigrant parties live in almost entirely white towns, the only way they know about immigrants is through the media. Surely, it's fear more than true ethnic nationalism? The lack of interactions with real immigrants lets them be painted however, which naturally leads to reactions against things perceived to be a threat. Put a load of immigrants around them, and I'd bet money that in most cases they'd become less worried about them. Not that that solves the political problem.
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May 17, 2017 12:46
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:i dunno everyone i ask mostly insists on the usual why labour is bad tropes they know that in our heart of hearts we would side with the traitor Gulen instead of the new sultan Erdogan, as perfidious Albion has always done
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May 17, 2017 12:48
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CottonWolf posted:Put a load of immigrants around them yeah this is working out great lol
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May 17, 2017 12:49
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:yeah this is working out great lol Thing is, this is exactly what's not happening. Where they settle isn't where he anti-immigrant feeling is.
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May 17, 2017 12:55
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CottonWolf posted:Thing is, this is exactly what's not happening. Where they settle isn't where he anti-immigrant feeling is. i appreciate not wanting to live in wales
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May 17, 2017 12:59
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Helsing posted:
imagine if hillary and dubya were the same person i guess i mean this makes america's attitude towards hillary look positively With Her
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May 17, 2017 13:07
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multiculturism is good, the 'melting pot' is bad
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May 17, 2017 13:50
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rudatron posted:It's not clear exactly how many refugees climate crises are going to create. But I don't even think it's necessarily the introduction of more people that's the problem, it's the total failure to integrate the immigrants into the already existing culture & society. The reason people are hosed off is that the communities that are the worst equipped to handle the introduction of a bunch of new people, especially other poor people, are the places where new refugees and immigrants are making their homes, because the housing is so cheap relative to the rest of the UK. You can get a terraced house in say Doncaster for like fifty grand. 20 minutes down the train line in York you're looking at five, six, times that. But if you're stuck there because the wages aren't good enough to move out of or you've got family that can't or won't move, what you see is the only people with any energy and talent loving off asap and them being replaced with immigrants, so you basically get increasingly low-achievement white locals sharing space with like second or third generation pakistani civil war refugees, Yugoslav war refugees, gypsies who've been forced off the road, and then Eastern european guys who are nothing like the rest of the people in terms of aims, but get a house for them and a few colleagues because in relative terms it's very cheap. And because it's the north of England, there is absolutely gently caress all being built that isn't supposed to directly benefit London, and large parts of the local government is made up of paradropped southerners because Labour doesn't respect them. To Labour, those people are The Demographics, as Democrats would say about immigrants they don't respect, have an understanding of, or do very much for, other than say their opponents are worse for them. And all that combined has made the whole region very hostile to neoliberal politics which has hollowed out their communities, which is why they went for Brexit in a big way.
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May 17, 2017 14:05
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Capitalism simply isn't equipped to handle an influx of immigrants, except in cases where land is cheap and abundant like the United States.
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May 17, 2017 14:15
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Capitalism simply isn't equipped to handle an influx of immigrants, except in cases where land is cheap and abundant like the United States.
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May 17, 2017 19:57
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ah that dastardly capitalism standing in the way of progress through forced resettlement again
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May 17, 2017 20:00
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Fallen Hamprince posted:the continuing adventures of boris johnson, diplomat extraordinaire My local Sikh temple (Wetherspoons) goes through a good 2-4 bottles of Jamesons a night on the Sikh tables.
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May 17, 2017 20:22
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jBrereton posted:If you think the problem is that land isn't easily available then you need to take your mind out of the Kolkhoz. America was so big that entire immigrant communities could settle miles away from the Anglo snobs and never have to interact with each other. Meanwhile today, immigrants compete with the native poor for subsidized housing, because the political climate always favors the interests of land developers over society.
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May 17, 2017 20:26
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:ah that dastardly capitalism standing in the way of progress through forced resettlement again Good job no forced resettlements or deaths have ever happened because of capitalism then Oh wait
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May 17, 2017 20:29
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Capitalism simply isn't equipped to handle an influx of immigrants, except in cases where land is cheap and abundant like the United States. List of government types with positive track records in dealing with mass immigration:
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May 17, 2017 20:30
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:List of government types with positive track records in dealing with mass immigration: America, United States of 
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May 17, 2017 20:31
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jBrereton posted:It isn't quite as simple as that. What he said. 
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May 17, 2017 20:34
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hakimashou posted:It's actually insane the degree to which the Labour Party has turned on Tony Blair. Nah, if your own guy turned out to be an unpopular failure you absolutely cast him loose. See: George W Bush and the Republicans.
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May 17, 2017 20:35
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:America, United States of I just can't think of any non-capitalist states that are well-equipped to handle a surge of immigrants. Seems like the capitalist states are doing OK-ish. If there were a refugee crisis in SE Asia, would Vietnam handle it better than Germany?
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May 17, 2017 20:37
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:America, United States of Is the joke that they were good at genocide or wee you making some other point i can't tell
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May 17, 2017 20:45
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:America was so big that entire immigrant communities could settle miles away from the Anglo snobs and never have to interact with each other. Meanwhile today, immigrants compete with the native poor for subsidized housing, because the political climate always favors the interests of land developers over society.
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May 17, 2017 21:25
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jBrereton posted:Joke or incredibly ignorant opinion? Bill the Butcher was a psyop
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May 17, 2017 22:12
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