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Four and a quarter on a 1099 is robbery, four and a quarter on a W2 is just business, baby!
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Apr 18, 2017 16:12
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Apologies if this isn't the right thread, maybe it belongs in negotiation, maybe it belongs in resume/interview, but I believe the interview isn't really my pain point here, and I'm looking at the next steps. I interviewed with another company in town 3 or 4 months ago after a headhunter reached out to me. Everyone in the department liked me and wanted to hire me, however the CPO felt that I wasn't a good fit. Apparently he wasn't a good fit because he was let go yesterday. So now they've reached back out to me through the headhunter and then their recruiter this morning about the original position I was talking to them about as well as another. The new position they're talking about it more in my wheelhouse, but the pay is the same, so whatever. Basically, my post-military career has gone thusly Sourcing Analyst Sr Procurement Sourcing Analyst(today). I did 8 years in DoD procurement before that. These new positions are a Sr P2P Analyst or a Sr Sourcing Analyst. The pay jump could potentially be me going from 94k with a 10% bonus to 110k with a 10-15% bonus. I don't like the title Analyst, because I feel it shows a lack of growth on paper. That said, the salary would make me okay with holding it for another few years. Are they any suggestions for wording that Analyst could be changed to? Or is this just my own neuroses? They've also sent me the benefits information. Currently I pay 280/month for my families HDHP, with a 3k deductible and a 5k max out of pocket. This is what they've sent:  I'm assuming the PPO is the way to go, given that I've reached my max out of pocket every year and have already reached my deductible with my current plan this year. I also wouldn't have to contribute 500/month to my HSA as I currently do. Does anyone have a quick breakdown (or easy breakdown) of HDHP vs PPO that would help me understand the decision I'm going to make? Having a $5,200 deductible does not seem like something I want with 4 children. Beyond that, the credit makes it seem that the PPO is "only" $425 a month. But, if I'm not contributing to an HSA, then that's a net positive. I think. Is a PPO really just "go pay your copay, and then deal with deductible/max out-of-pocket if something terrible happens?" I've covered their gap in 401k plans in my calculations, and the only thing left that concerns me is their PTO policy. Instead of sick leave and vacation, they just use PTO. It looks like I would probably be able to get 30 days PTO, and given then I never use sick leave, this probably should be enough. (Wife stays at home/goes to University 2 days a week while the kids are in school/day care) Am I missing something with PTO? I know if something catastrophic happens I could be in trouble compared to the security I have here (6 months of sick leave and 6 months of half pay sick leave, yearly), but I feel that having 30 days PTO would actually leave me taking more time away every year. I know there will be other negotiation points (sign on bonus to cover loss of vested 401k and restarting my healthcare deductible), but the main ones are making sure that my cash flow going forward is a nice raise and that I'm not missing any major things that I need to be aware of. Everything else they offer seems to be roughly in line with what I already have, so I'm not terrible worried about it. I already know that yearly raises couldn't get much worse than where I currently am, and I don't feel like a promotion is in the cards here for the next couple years, mostly due to M&A, so I feel like this could be a smart career move. The only reason I wasn't really considering it before was because of the CPO that didn't like me either, but since that obstacle has been removed and the people I originally interviewed with immediately reached out, I feel like I'm in a strong position going in. Am I missing anything else?
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May 4, 2017 16:25
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Could you be a lead or senior analyst? I don't know your COL or industry too well but that pay sounds at the upper end of most analyst jobs, double or more even depending on context maybe adding a modifier makes sense to show progression and ability?
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May 4, 2017 17:09
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Well either new position already will have the Senior Modifier. I think I might be able to get "Principal" for one of the jobs? Honestly it shouldn't be a big deal, but working in this company for the last 2+ years has sapped my confidence and I'm ready to move on, but want to show growth on paper easily. At the end of the day, another 15k would help me more than the title.
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May 4, 2017 19:59
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No Butt Stuff posted:
I obviously can't speak to the details of your plans specifically, but generally a PPO is "easier" in that it is just copays for typical checkups -- but overall access to coverage should be the same between the two. I think one of the key questions to ask yourself is how likely you (including your entire family) are to reach the max out of pocket expenses in a year. Once you hit that, it's pretty much all "free" from there on out. Basically, assuming you stay in-network, the difference of OOP max for HDHP and PPO is only $800. If you're likely to hit that max, I'd go with the HDHP for the lower premiums. But if you think you're unlikely to hit that, the question becomes exactly how much do you think you'll spend. For the HDHP, it looks like there's only a $2600 difference between meeting the deductible and meeting the OOP max. For the PPO, this difference extends to $5000. The PPO obviously has the lower deductible, so it will be a long and slow burn until your reach the OOP max once the co-insurance kicks in. The HDHP has a shorter time (amount of money) it will be in co-insurance for, but again, the deductible is higher. Also, if you choose the HDHP, does this company pay anything towards an HSA (matching contributions, etc)? If so, that could also affect the calculations. Anyway, you basically need to figure how much expenses you think you'll have between $2000 (deductible for PPO) and $7800 (OOP max for HDHP), factoring in that co-insurance can significantly slow the accumulation of your OOP expenses once you hit the deductible. In short, if you and your family are in very good health and just basically do annual physicals and 1-2 small sicknesses per year, the HDHP is probably a good choice. If you think the odds of all 6 of you staying very healthy is relatively low, the PPO might be a better choice. Being a sourcing analyst, I'm sure you're familiar with Excel and you can set up some calculations to see where a "break-even" point might be  On another topic, it sounds like you have an extremely generous sick leave policy right now. Clearly, you're going to take a hit with 'just' 30 days PTO if you get sick a lot. One thing to ask this new company is how flexible they are with working from home -- that's one way to avoid burning a PTO if you're not feeling 100% but not going to die either. If you don't get sick often, then you can just treat most of those PTO days as vacation (say, 20-25ish to be safe?) and then compare that number to your current position.
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May 6, 2017 01:41
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My HDHP gets me significant in-network discounts from the get-go. Don't need to hit the annual deductible before seeing any benefit.
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May 6, 2017 02:25
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I'm about to enter into compensation negotiations with a company I would love to work for. I'm not too concerned with the salary they will offer me but I am curious how to approach asking for a signing bonus. I am under the impression that if you give up vested stock, company bonus, etc. from your previous employer then the signing bonus should equal what you give up. Is that the right mindset to approach when asking them for a sign on bonus? I will be leaving behind ~$25k worth of bonuses if I leave my current employer. Should I just outright tell them this and request a sign on bonus of 25k? Maybe even start higher just in case I get lucky and they say yes? Thanks guys.
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May 6, 2017 04:50
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It's totally reasonable to ask for a signing bonus for that reason - be generous in your estimate/what you ask for.
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May 6, 2017 07:46
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25k is fine to ask for, but you'll notice there's definitely a line in the sand between companies who are actually willing to pay for talent and those who aren't. Amazon regularly pays 25-100k in signing bonuses spread out over a few years for one data point.
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May 6, 2017 15:33
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Pryor on Fire posted:25k is fine to ask for, but you'll notice there's definitely a line in the sand between companies who are actually willing to pay for talent and those who aren't. Amazon regularly pays 25-100k in signing bonuses spread out over a few years for one data point. 100k for one data point? I don't understand what that means. I think I will shoot for the moon and ask for 35k. My industry is on a sort of a rebound at the moment (oil and gas). Before the drop in oil price I could have asked for 50k.
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May 6, 2017 16:29
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I just meant hey here's some numbers from an actual company that is on the high range of offering signing bonuses to mid level employees, that's your data point.
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May 7, 2017 01:04
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I would add that what you can get depends on the industry. For example, if contingent comp is common you can often get paid anything you're "leaving behind" if someone wants to poach you from somewhere. E: for example, let's say half of your bonus each year vests over 3 years. Some industries do this to try to decrease churn, so if you had, say $100k that hadn't vested yet then the company you are moving to could often be expected to pay you all or most of that amount to ease the pain of leaving it behind. Kalenn Istarion fucked around with this message at 01:25 on May 7, 2017 |
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May 7, 2017 01:22
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Pryor on Fire posted:25k is fine to ask for, but you'll notice there's definitely a line in the sand between companies who are actually willing to pay for talent and those who aren't. Amazon regularly pays 25-100k in signing bonuses spread out over a few years for one data point. Similarly, I'm aware of someone at Amazon who got a signing bonus of $230,000 spread out over two years. Although I think Amazon's signing bonuses are less traditional signing bonuses and are more to make up for the fact that their RSU grants for new hires are skewed towards getting very little until their 2 year anniversary (it's like 5% the first year, 15% the second year, and 20% every 6mo after that until the grant is depleted).
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May 7, 2017 16:58
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How do you estimate the actual average pay for a role in an area when estimates are wildly different? I'm looking at Glassdoor, Linkedin, Salary.com, and Indeed.com. Trying to match what I'm doing the best I'm seeing from $62,000 to $100,000  . Salary.com's descriptions are so vague that maybe I'm looking at the wrong thing, there's nothing I see that precisely matches what I would say I do. The others are from 80-100k, at 80, 80, 90, 100.I mean, don't get me wrong, I would be over the moon to get even 80k, and happy to get 70k, but with numbers so all over the place I'm not sure what to expect.
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May 7, 2017 21:31
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It's kind of a hard thing to do - do you have any friends who work in your industry in that area who you feel comfortable talking about it with?
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May 8, 2017 00:58
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I know a few people in development in the area, but I'm not sure about any BI people. The tricky part is also that it's a mix of BI development and SQL development, so it's hard to pick which to go with. Thankfully in this case they're mostly the same range. I also finally found the right set of keywords for Salary.com and got another 80-90k result. I started in IT at 31k three years ago, so that would be meteoric compared to 90% of people I have worked or gone to college with. I'll ask again in the CoC threads, but I didn't get a response last time. While I'm here, anyone know a reasonable range for a BI dev / SQL dev in Denver?
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May 8, 2017 02:26
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BI Development in KC would pay 70-100k depending on the company.
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May 8, 2017 04:29
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 I'm pretty sure KC has a much lower COL too. I'm probably going to get on the lower end since I'm so new, but we use some really unique software that would require training pretty much anybody, so I'm hoping to leverage that to negate the newness factor. I'm going to be 26 when I start, and I'll probably already be making more than my 56 year old dad has ever made. 
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May 8, 2017 17:56
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22 Eargesplitten posted:
Yeah, KC is cheaper than Denver by a fair chunk.
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May 8, 2017 18:13
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I got an offer for 78k for a job that my friend, who was offered the job but declined and then recommended me, was guessing would pay 74k. He based this on the fact that he makes 68k and the last time he moved up in the company he made 6k more. The offer letter actually says they normally start that position at 74k. The offer is a 28,000 increase from my current job, but in DC as opposed to the middle of nowhere where I currently work. I haven't accepted the offer, which I got yesterday. Can or should I ask for more?
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May 11, 2017 00:27
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Well I mean I'm going to ask for more, I'm just figuring out how to do that. This is my first salary negotiation.
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May 11, 2017 02:34
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I'm being trained in reporting at this job (contract to hire), are there any counter arguments to the predictable "we're training you, so you won't get paid as much as someone who already knew how to do this" point? I can't think of any that don't sound like "if you underpay me I'll just get a year under my belt and jump ship for another $20-30k." I am using ERP software unusual enough that they would have to train anyone they didn't have to bring in from out of state, so that's something. But I would rather be able to use the high demand low supply of the skillet as its own point rather than as a counter, if that makes sense. The fact that there are pretty much no salaries in the US posted for BI development with this software also makes it hard to gauge how high on the range I should be shooting for. At this point I'm spending most of the time I'm not spending working trying to plan this out.
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May 11, 2017 04:47
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22 Eargesplitten posted:I'm being trained in reporting at this job (contract to hire), are there any counter arguments to the predictable "we're training you, so you won't get paid as much as someone who already knew how to do this" point? I can't think of any that don't sound like "if you underpay me I'll just get a year under my belt and jump ship for another $20-30k." How would there be? Do you threaten them with not getting underpaid AND not getting trained and go get the position that you are not entirely qualified for somewhere else? (That will also underpay you because they will be training you...) You are not ideally valuable at the task you are doing for employment right now, so they are training you and getting a discount because you are not an ideal fit. Training you costs them time in someone training you, plus the opportunity of hiring someone who can already do the job. They probably can't find that person, so they're training you up. They also save some money on payroll in exchange for incurring these costs. What exactly are you expecting here?
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May 11, 2017 13:59
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I was hoping for a way to convince them without threatening them, because if I get underpaid then I probably will end up leaving in a year or two and I like this place. I've never really negotiated before, so I'm trying to figure out how to do it well. I probably am going to just have to take whatever I can get, though. I doubt I could get something else like this I kind of just lucked into it. Unless they offer me something based off of what I was hired for rather than what I've been doing for most of the contract at this point. Even the low end of normal would be great. 22 Eargesplitten fucked around with this message at 18:26 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 18:22
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22 Eargesplitten posted:I was hoping for a way to convince them without threatening them, because if I get underpaid then I probably will end up leaving in a year or two and I like this place. I've never really negotiated before, so I'm trying to figure out how to do it well. The best way to be convincing is to have a material BATNA that you'd be comfortable accepting, and using it as leverage to show your value to your current employer. But you will have a hard time finding that, because you're not trained for the job you want to be earning salary for, yet. I don't always agree with Dwight but he's right to assert that you're not really in a very good position for negotiation, given that you're already getting paid whilst getting trained. You don't merit the salary of a trained employee, yet, unless some "greater fool" is willing to also train you and pay you more. Once you're trained, you'll have a far better position. In the meantime, I'd be grateful that you're making a salary to learn to earn more salary. Most of us took on debt to do that.
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May 11, 2017 18:36
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Oh, I did that too. I've got student loans from community college and an aborted University attempt. That's why I got this job, that and OJT for SQL support they never ended up needing.
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May 11, 2017 18:49
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I finished reading the whole thread and I also successfully helped my friend negotiate for $2,250 more dollars on his next job. Thanks, thread! I'll be working on my own position soon next.
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May 11, 2017 19:25
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I'm not a negotiation pro but I would like to comment on the pay for training question. I think I've posted this here before but not in a while: my first job paid below market for my field, but i took it because it had some good training opportunities and the bosses were willing to basically trade experience for $$. I worked there 2 years and left for greener pastures. Eventually, I made 150% more at a vastly more prestigious company all within five years post school. I have some friends who had similar chances but took the BNA of living at home and holding out for better. I don't think any of them are particularly happy with their lives. You gotta know what you're worth and usually it's more than they will offer to pay you. BUT sometimes I think you need to be realistic and strategic and take an opportunity because it will get you to the next one.
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May 11, 2017 20:18
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Yeah, I figure that's not unlikely. I would kind of like to stay here for a few years, but then again things can change very quickly at a company. Perspective check because sometimes I don't know how I come across: if I mentioned in my negotiations that my manager (who will probably be there) said (system we use) is a very valuable system to know, would that sound like I was threatening to leave? It might help that I've been training one of my coworkers on the system already, and will probably do the same with the replacement we are trying to being on. Would the fact I'm already training people myself be worth mentioning? Yes, I know it's bad that currently the most senior non-manager we have working on this system in this country has been here 4 months.
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May 11, 2017 21:19
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22 Eargesplitten posted:Yeah, I figure that's not unlikely. I would kind of like to stay here for a few years, but then again things can change very quickly at a company. What is coming across in what you're writing, as I read it, is that you want to put the cart before the horse. If, and when, you are skilled in the use of the system your company uses, then you are valuable. While you are being trained, you are less valuable. What it sounds like is that you want to be compensated like an expert, while you are still skilling up to become an expert. If you think that's a fair characterization, then tough luck, because you are worth what someone is willing to pay you, and without some savvy and duplicitous marketing on your part, employers probably will not want to compensate you like an expert while you are less capable than an expert. That doesn't mean you get underpaid forever, it means you get to expert level skill, then you demand to have your compensation revisited. Then, you find other people looking for your expert skillset and see what they'll pay you. Then, you play your current employer off other people. Maybe you give your current employer a discount because you like them, but you need the leverage, and for the leverage, you need the skills. You might be super smart, and you probably know a lot about the tool you're using right now. But noone's going to treat you like an expert when you have 4 months experience using it, and noone's going to compensate you like an expert when you have 4 months experience.
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May 11, 2017 21:58
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I'm not expecting to be compensated like an expert, I'm just trying to put together as many arguments for being paid well for my experience level as I can. Expert would be well over 110k from what the salary sites are saying, especially with (aforementioned system) expertise. I don't expect to land anywhere near there, I'm just hoping to land more in the normal junior range rather than the intern range. I guess I wasn't being clear about that. I'm trying to figure out places I'm performing above what would normally be expected, value added to the company, that sort of thing. Is that not the proper approach? E: reading my posts I can see how you misunderstood. I communicated very poorly. 22 Eargesplitten fucked around with this message at 22:27 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 22:08
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22 Eargesplitten posted:I'm not expecting to be compensated like an expert, I'm just trying to put together as many arguments for being paid well for my experience level as I can. Expert would be well over 110k from what the salary sites are saying, especially with (aforementioned system) expertise. I don't expect to land anywhere near there, I'm just hoping to land more in the normal junior range rather than the intern range. I guess I wasn't being clear about that. Okay, so you want to stack as many "value-adds" as you can to get to something better than "complete and utter rube", but you're not targeting being fully trained. Sounds like you're contract now and want to come into the hire discussion ready to negotiate and with a planned out argument? If so, here's what I'd keep in mind: - You can't do a clean hourly -> salaried conversion as an apples to apples comparison. When salaried you're gonna start getting benefits that your employer pays for, they'll be paying payroll taxes so you'll keep more aftertax income, and your income will be (theoretically) more stable and consistent. You're also paid on an annual basis with some amount of time off (this is a negotiation point too!). A vague rule of thumb is to take your annual salary, divide by 1000, and target that hourly rate. (e.g. if you make $52,000 / year, you should target $52/hr. $52/hr * 40 * 52 = $108,160 pre-tax income, if you worked a "normal" work week every week.). The converse here is take your contract rate, multiply by 1000, and baseline at that salary. - You are reaching at measurable things, and that's good. Really emphasize these from your employer's perspective though: You are making <coworker name> more effective by training <him/her> in <new system>. - You are a known quantity. Talk about your achievements in the contract engagement, talk about your rapport with your current manager. These things are valuable. - Highlight what you have learned so far about your ERP tool. If you can contrast with other rates of skill gain that are favorable to you, do so. - No plan survives first contact with the enemy. Now, keep in mind you can make a wonderful cogent argument about how you are valuable above and beyond the typical contract to hire, and if your only prospects are this contract to hire conversion, they can say "Yeah, everyone wants to get paid more. Take what we're giving you." To the extent you want to focus on prepping for this negotiation, your ability can actually secure other opportunities will do wonders for your negotiation. It will show you how other employers value your skillset, and it will give you the leverage and confidence to press for that value in compensation. Cogent arguments are nice, and in a world of thoughtful people could be used to persuade others of mutual best interest. But there's a number of emotional and not particularly thoughtful people who you need to have a sharp pointy edge to deal with, and in negotiating for a job, a counteroffer is pretty much the only viable sharp pointy edge for most of us.
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May 11, 2017 22:39
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Uncle Enzo posted:I got an offer for 78k for a job that my friend, who was offered the job but declined and then recommended me, was guessing would pay 74k. He based this on the fact that he makes 68k and the last time he moved up in the company he made 6k more. Check the difference in cost of living. Compare the benefits they have vs what you have. Is their 401k worse? Maybe ask for a little more to cover that? Or just say "Is there any way we can make it $X based on my Y?" This would also be a good time to make sure your vacation is what you want as well.
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May 15, 2017 14:03
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Does anybody have any suggestions on how to approach salary negotiations with a public sector employer with a set salary range that's advertised in the job ad? In my case it's a municipal engineer position with a city, union, and at no point was salary discussed during the interviews and the follow up discussions. (I know better than to bring it up first). Do they have a grid that you're placed in based on your years of experience, or is it something different? Anybody have any insight?
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May 17, 2017 02:34
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Bucanero posted:Does anybody have any suggestions on how to approach salary negotiations with a public sector employer with a set salary range that's advertised in the job ad? When I got a job at a PS department, I just politely asked that they match my previous salary, which they agreed to immediately. I recommend negotiating hard here, because afterwards you might be on a fixed promotion schedule (e.g. One "rank" of salary per year). That and the PS probably won't cancel your offer for negotiating hard. E: I had no BATNA so I didn't push my luck for more
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May 17, 2017 12:55
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Most public sector jobs are on pay schedules where your salary increases annually up to a certain point. You've got one opportunity to negotiate when you're first hired, but you'll likely only be able to negotiate within a defined pay range for your job class.
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May 17, 2017 14:24
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I've got an interview today/tomorrow for a job that seems interesting to me but would force me to relocate and take me out of doing medicine every day. I think it would be the perfect job for 3-5 years down the road, but I don't think it's a good fit right now. I would lose my ability to finish my MBA and I would lose loan repayment benefits, and the pay raise (35% starting) is substantial but not, like, unable to refuse. I am chiefly taking this opportunity to interview to stay sharp and possibly receive an offer that I could use as leverage to ensure a good raise this round at work. How do I do this... diplomatically?
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May 17, 2017 17:10
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Took an offer from another company to my boss, told him I didn't want to leave, and that I want to stay and continue the work we've been doing, but they'd have to come up with something because otherwise I was leaving a lot of money on the table. Got an 8% raise  The cash flow actually ends up with me making 400 bucks more a month when all is said and done. I will take that all day, every day.
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May 18, 2017 01:44
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:I've got an interview today/tomorrow for a job that seems interesting to me but would force me to relocate and take me out of doing medicine every day. I think it would be the perfect job for 3-5 years down the road, but I don't think it's a good fit right now. I would lose my ability to finish my MBA and I would lose loan repayment benefits, and the pay raise (35% starting) is substantial but not, like, unable to refuse. I am chiefly taking this opportunity to interview to stay sharp and possibly receive an offer that I could use as leverage to ensure a good raise this round at work. You are allowed to open with aloofness and a null hypothesis that you will not accept their offer. This is, in fact, the best way to start off. If you communicate consistently that you are happy where you are, what you are motivated by, and that you are primarily just evaluating another opportunity, you've done all you need to. Whatever time, energy and opportunity they invest in you was not done under false pretenses, and was their informed decision.
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May 19, 2017 12:40
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:You are allowed to open with aloofness and a null hypothesis that you will not accept their offer. This is, in fact, the best way to start off. Yeah, I tried to make it as crystal clear as possible that although I love their company the position I was evaluating was probably not going to be the right fit for me. Despite this, I think I nailed the interview to the wall. I told them a gruesome high offer would be compelling, a fair offer would probably be rejected and not to bother with anything below 20% above what I make now. Having a strong BATNA makes interviewing for a job a lot more fun! Thanks for everyone's insight!
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May 19, 2017 18:38
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