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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:List of government types with positive track records in dealing with mass immigration: The USA has had great success with mass immigration. We built the greatest country in the history of the world from it. People like to make noise about how "young" the USA is, but it was one of the first modern countries. Very little of europe had modern government when the US was founded, many european nations weren't even nations at all yet. The panic in europe over immigration comes from inexperience. The US has a much more mature attitude towards immigration because we've dealt with it and built from it for centuries.
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May 17, 2017 22:30
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Vox Nihili posted:Nah, if your own guy turned out to be an unpopular failure you absolutely cast him loose. See: George W Bush and the Republicans. Tony blair won three elections in a row and was PM longer than maggie thatcher. The british are stupid for blaming him for iraq instead of blaming bush and America.
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May 17, 2017 22:31
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Okay, but the migrant issue isn't being framed as a 'lack of affordable housing' issue, it's 'they're competing with natives for limited resources so stop them coming here'. The obvious answer to a housing crisis is to just build more affordable public housing, and the conservatives are the party least likely to do that. But they're the ones gaining. I stand by it being an integration issue, and a clear demonstration that the multicultural ideal is essentially too utopian - its unreasonable to expect distinct communities to not start competing over limited resources, instead of managing it cooperatively, because tribalism is a hell of a drug.
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May 17, 2017 23:05
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rudatron posted:Okay, but the migrant issue isn't being framed as a 'lack of affordable housing' issue, it's 'they're competing with natives for limited resources so stop them coming here'. The obvious answer to a housing crisis is to just build more affordable public housing, and the conservatives are the party least likely to do that. But they're the ones gaining. Again, that isn't a failing of multiculturalism; multiculturalism is what you get in London and other well developed areas as well as poorer areas, the issue is that there isn't any money, and those places have progressively been designated as toxic areas to dump people you don't respect in, much like the very anti-multicultural suburbs of France which were positively designed to create ghettoised communities.
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May 17, 2017 23:14
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jBrereton posted:It isn't an issue about there being space or resources, the issue is that these communities are not respected at all, which is why they are having people dumped on them, from incredibly bad + corrupt politicians to refugees. This then creates a situation where everyone wants to get out, which is why housing is more or less free if you want to have a go, which means migrant labour comes to those areas to make it even more alienating to the people living there. Imagine the following scenario: a disaster occurs somewhere else in the uk, the people living there have to move, and they do. There would of course be disruption, but the essentially nobody would demand that they stay in that disaster zone - rather, stresses these intra-migrants produce would just be the a result of that disaster, so any problems would encourage support of government intervention with resources. That's not happening here, instead, they're just being pitted against each other. Why? Lack of integration.
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May 17, 2017 23:37
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jBrereton posted:It isn't an issue about there being space or resources, the issue is that these communities are not respected at all, which is why they are having people dumped on them, from incredibly bad + corrupt politicians to refugees. This then creates a situation where everyone wants to get out, which is why housing is more or less free if you want to have a go, which means migrant labour comes to those areas to make it even more alienating to the people living there. What he said, again (stop making me respect you.. twat) 
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May 17, 2017 23:52
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hakimashou posted:Tony blair won three elections in a row and was PM longer than maggie thatcher. Tony Blair is absolutely to blame for the UK involvement in Iraq. he specifically resigned in large part to take responsibility for the mounting casualties http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10102727 "As British casualties in Iraq mounted, Blair's popularity plummeted. When he was first elected, 63 percent of Britons said he could be trusted, according to a recent poll by YouGov/Daily Telegraph. Today, that number is 22 percent. His unwavering support for the war in Iraq explains a lot of that decline."
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May 17, 2017 23:54
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hakimashou posted:Tony blair won three elections in a row and was PM longer than maggie thatcher. What? No he wasn't.
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May 17, 2017 23:59
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Hakimashou sees a poll proving that Blair is the most toxic possible candidate for Labour leadership, and think it's Labour's fault for hating him. You're all wasting your time.
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May 18, 2017 00:01
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:What? No he wasn't. I could have sworn he stayed on like one day longer than her or something but it looks like I misheard that a decade ago and have been wrong ever since!
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May 18, 2017 00:01
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Hakimashou sees a poll proving that Blair is the most toxic possible candidate for Labour leadership, and think it's Labour's fault for hating him. You're all wasting your time. Its just madness to poo poo on your own guy like that. "Blair is bad" means "Labour is bad."
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May 18, 2017 00:03
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hakimashou posted:Its just madness to poo poo on your own guy like that.
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May 18, 2017 00:09
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Republicans are bad, they are the "bad guys."
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May 18, 2017 00:10
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hakimashou posted:Its just madness to poo poo on your own guy like that. so surely youd never poo poo on corbyn right? since hes the face of labour at present? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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May 18, 2017 00:11
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hakimashou posted:The USA has had great success with mass immigration. We built the greatest country in the history of the world from it. Rather over-egging Liberia here, aren't you?
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May 18, 2017 00:13
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Vox Nihili posted:so surely youd never poo poo on corbyn right? since hes the face of labour at present? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Fortunately I am not British and don't have to make these hard choices. I don't know if I could bring myself to vote for corbyn labour after hearing his views on NATO though.
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May 18, 2017 00:20
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hakimashou posted:Fortunately I am not British and don't have to make these hard choices. but surely youd urge labour devotees to faithfully follow whoever heads the party, given your rhetoric. otherwise theyd be doing nothing but shooting themselves in the foot, right?
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May 18, 2017 00:25
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Vox Nihili posted:but surely youd urge labour devotees to faithfully follow whoever heads the party, given your rhetoric. otherwise theyd be doing nothing but shooting themselves in the foot, right? Well, you follow a winner, you poo poo on a loser for losing. If someone leads the party to defeat he covers himself in poo poo, vs if he leads the party to victory he covers himself in glory.
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May 18, 2017 00:26
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Just because someone makes a post, doesn't mean you have to reply.
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May 18, 2017 00:26
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rudatron posted:Just because someone makes a post, doesn't mean you have to reply. I can see by your reg date you're still pretty new around here but that isnt how SA works it works on a different principle called  hth
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May 18, 2017 00:27
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hakimashou posted:Well, you follow a winner, you poo poo on a loser for losing. blair went to poo poo and resigned in shame & deep unpopularity so he was rightfully discarded, friendo
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May 18, 2017 00:30
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rudatron posted:You say 'its not an issue of resources', but later say there's not enough money. You say it's not multiculturalism that's the problem, but then immediately say that migrant labor showing up, is making the area alienating to the people already there. Isn't the fact that that alienation is being felt, and driving anti-migrant politics/brexit, itself proof of that failure? You keep contradicting yourself. The alienation is happening mainly because of a complete lack of will to support local people who have been there a long time (and to some extent that includes second- and third-generation immigrants in those towns). You don't tend to have the same problems in better-off areas that have high-paid, high-skilled foreign workers alongside high-paid, high skilled local workers. Cambridge is not Slough, or Doncaster, or Wakefield. That happens in places with multiculturalism, like the UK, and in places where there is a strong nationalist and secular culture, like France. In both places it isn't really multiculturalism or laïcité that's failing, it's that certain places in those countries are being failed. quote:Imagine the following scenario: a disaster occurs somewhere else in the uk, the people living there have to move, and they do. There would of course be disruption, but the essentially nobody would demand that they stay in that disaster zone - rather, stresses these intra-migrants produce would just be the a result of that disaster, so any problems would encourage support of government intervention with resources. That's not happening here, instead, they're just being pitted against each other. Why? Lack of integration. That has nothing to do with multiculturalism.
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May 18, 2017 00:36
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And which political party was Thatcher a member of? Was it the one projected to lose abour 30 points, or the one that's going to win? I'm not arguing that austerity didn't happen, it did, but the downsides are all getting blamed on migrants, who are being scape goated. Why was that possible? Because it's easier to blame aliens than it is to face facts. Its all the more easier the less you have in common. Ergo, the multicultural dream, of distinct and totally separate communities, with nothing in common, all tolerating each other, is bullshit. It doesn't work. Limited resources are competed over, instead of cooperatively managed, and mutual resentment grows. The only reason it works in the well off areas, is because there's nothing to compete over, they're all secure enough that it's not an issue. But for people who aren't secure, i.e. the majority, inter group conflict is inevitable.
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May 18, 2017 00:50
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I thought communists were supposed to be optimistic about humanity
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May 18, 2017 01:09
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Optimistic =/= utopian. You build a better future based on how people are observed to behave. You don't expect a bunch of fairy dust to solve your problems for you, than fall back on an elitist superiority complex when it fails (clearly those dirty poors didn't try hard enough to not be racist, ergo its 100% their fault). The flipside of starry eyed utopianism, is depressive fatalism, after its inevitable (& traumatic) contact with reality. Both are toxic, in their own way.
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May 18, 2017 01:21
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Based on observations of behavior, the best future is human speciescide.
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May 18, 2017 01:32
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Based on observations of behavior, the best future is human speciescide. just because luxury space communism isn't possible and you're suicidal cause of it don't mean you have to drag the rest of us with you mate
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May 18, 2017 01:35
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:just because luxury space communism isn't possible and you're suicidal cause of it don't mean you have to drag the rest of us with you mate im sure the world is way better off being polluted by your disgusting farts all day 
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May 18, 2017 01:37
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:im sure the world is way better off being polluted by your disgusting farts all day my farts can be pretty brutal, to be fair
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May 18, 2017 01:43
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Based on observations of behavior, the best future is human speciescide. The trick is threading the needle between that, and 'there is no alternative ', itself a kind of depressive fatalism, or attaching too strongly to what is realistic and what is not (what i believe is the best because biotruths). The default state is uncertainty, but uncertainty can be both terrifying and liberating, simultaneously.
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May 18, 2017 02:08
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Having said that, luxury space communism is an inevitability, and i get that u were kinda being ironic pener (luv u), but I also know that's it's only half-ironic
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May 18, 2017 03:31
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hahaha only the decendents of the mega rich atm will ever see luxury space communism.
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May 18, 2017 04:04
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Baloogan posted:hahaha only the decendents of the mega rich atm will ever see luxury space communism. they will feel really bad about how their ancestors exploited everyone else and then unleashed the horrorphage virus upon the rest when things went to poo poo
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May 18, 2017 04:24
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haha no they wolnt they will chillax in space on drugs having everything done by machines while hating the people slightly richer than them doing nothing really worthwhile
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May 18, 2017 04:27
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even your dreams are false https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW_R98EBO7s
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May 18, 2017 04:28
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Baloogan posted:hahaha only the decendents of the mega rich atm will ever see luxury space communism. lol red alert was right
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May 18, 2017 04:40
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Baloogan posted:even your dreams are false no dreams are false because the future is vast & unknowable
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May 18, 2017 04:49
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the descendants of the mega rich are going to be eaten
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May 18, 2017 04:54
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rich people aren't actually that smart, and are totally incapable of either creating or maintaining the wealth they have access to, in today's society. That only comes at the expense of laborers. If they disappear into space, alone, they'll all die.
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May 18, 2017 04:56
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rudatron posted:rich people aren't actually that smart, and are totally incapable of either creating or maintaining the wealth they have access to, in today's society. That only comes at the expense of laborers. If they disappear into space, alone, they'll all die. I take it you missed the "fully automated" part.
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May 18, 2017 05:58
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