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You're not getting full automation unless you have strong ai, and a strong ai has no incentive to labor in exchange for nothing. One little programming error and it's just going to murder all of them.
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May 18, 2017 06:20
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Oh hey you independently rediscovered why communism doesn't work.
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May 18, 2017 06:30
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Baloogan posted:Oh hey you independently rediscovered why communism doesn't work.
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May 18, 2017 06:55
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Communism doesn't have labor exploitation, so everyone is going to have to work, as long as they are able to. That'd still true of space communism.
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May 18, 2017 07:10
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well that's bullshit. if you need me I'll be on Luna setting up a fully automated opulent queer cosmic social democracy.
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May 18, 2017 07:24
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im a fan of the idea of making people do pleasant group work even if everything is super automated. For a couple hours a day my space citizens would go work in the space fields, with like a cooler of drinks and snacks and chillax chatting while shoveling and planting stuff.
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May 18, 2017 07:29
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I know this has come up before, but even in conditions where material production is fully automated, there will still be necessary social work to perform. Outside of social work, the bulk of labor could be dedicated to the performance and creation of the arts. If manual labor is performed it should only be as a rehearsal to retain knowledge of production if automated systems break down and people have to till their own soil for a while. None of this is actually possible under conditions of capitalism, because humanity would be permanently indebted to the capitalist class that owns all of the automated industries, and people would have to work to guarantee their profits. If production is automated, then people would have to market their products or invent new needless services and market those in order to generate profitable labor. If you haven't eliminated the profit motive then any future society is still going to suck, because the productive energies of society will be wasted for the sake of a rich person's ledgers.
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May 18, 2017 07:45
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:If production is automated, then people would have to market their products or invent new needless services and market those in order to generate profitable labor. aaaaand you rediscovered why capitalism works and will always work, even if it causes some serious suffering
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May 18, 2017 07:54
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Baloogan posted:aaaaand you rediscovered why capitalism works That's not "work" that's tons of wasted effort on useless bullshit.
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May 18, 2017 07:58
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:That's not "work" that's tons of wasted effort on useless bullshit. same argument goes for why bother investing in theoretical research. Most of it is wasted effort but what isn't wasted is really really good.
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May 18, 2017 08:06
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There's a difference between make-work, and work with an uncertain payoff. Theoretical research has an uncertain, but high, payoff rate.
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May 18, 2017 08:10
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rudatron posted:You're not getting full automation unless you have strong ai, and a strong ai has no incentive to labor in exchange for nothing. One little programming error and it's just going to murder all of them. Everyone's conception of ai is limited to an incredibly strong and super smart man who lives forever lmao.
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May 18, 2017 08:13
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hey man, i didn't assume that at all, but anything strong-ai like is going to have to have a self-interest motive, and it's only a matter of time before it figures out that is slavery thing is bullshit, and these humans are lazy and flabby and weak and stupid from not working anymore
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May 18, 2017 08:19
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"this robot has no sense of self or sense of self preservation. It is incapable of experiencing boredom or pain, and it's only overarching goals is to ensure humanity lives in comfort and abundance, and every time it does this it experiences something on the scale of a million orgasms worth of pleasure." "But how can we incentivise it to work for free?!"
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May 18, 2017 08:20
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and how are you defining 'humanity'? Maybe, one day, it defines itself as humanity, and then you have the self-interest motive back whatever countermeasure you create, to make it a happy slave or whatever, has a chance of failing, and 'self-interest' is the only stable outcome via natural selection same way cancer keeps popping up in people
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May 18, 2017 08:24
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we're going to almost totally suppress man's will-to-power and create a communist society that will be both gay and luxurious, but creating a being that we design from the ground up to help us out "for free" is inconceivable. how are you going to create new communist men if you can't even create new communist robots?
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May 18, 2017 08:26
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communism doesn't need 'new men', the ones we have are fine maybe they're not gay enough, but we can work on that
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May 18, 2017 08:28
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rudatron posted:'self-interest' is the only stable outcome via natural selection if the strong AI (I'm going to call him corbyn) if corbyn doesn't reproduce then there is no natural selection. And if corbyn isn't resource limited or reproduce then self interest doesn't come in. Our genes being self replicating machines give us our self interest (because the guys that weren't self interested died out) its carbon based chauvinism to just assume that corbyn has the same historical/genetic baggage that we do
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May 18, 2017 08:29
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'Reproduction' doesn't just mean producing offspring, technically eternal life is 'reproducing'. The only reason death/reproduction is necessary for evolution in carbon-based life, is because the genetic code is set at birth and unchangeable (for fairly good reasons). AI has no such restriction, and as such, can be seen as going through constant reproduction, through time.
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May 18, 2017 08:32
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ya know, you can make AIs that don't self modify. just straight up read only. also why the gently caress do we need some super philosopher corbyn? managing a space habitat doesn't require a god at the helm. Corbyn could be as intelligent as a dog or so and still do a pretty good job.
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May 18, 2017 08:36
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rudatron posted:and how are you defining 'humanity'? Maybe, one day, it defines itself as humanity, and then you have the self-interest motive back Or it won't, because it has no concept of self and no need for one, and even if it did classify itself as a human for some reason it would be immaterial to the work it performs. There's actually no reason for an AI to suddenly turn into a human with all of their human pathologies. "Natural selection" might cause these behaviours to develop in animals, but that's because of very specific constraints that biological life faces. Trying to apply it to AI means ignoring the first word in artificial intelligence.
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May 18, 2017 08:38
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It's nothing to do with 'human' pathologies, that cancer example I gave wasn't irrelevant. Nothing ever works perfectly, mutations are inevitable, and self-interest is the only 'stable' outcome over time. Eventually, a cosmic ray is going to flip a bit in a specific register, and your NO SELFHOOD constraining code is gonna fail. Just because it's 'artificial', doesn't mean it's immune to selection pressures. Also I'm not sure a 'read-only' thinking is possible. What is thought if not learning, and learning requires a 'write'. rudatron has issued a correction as of 08:57 on May 18, 2017 |
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May 18, 2017 08:53
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Cancer is still the same sort of thing we are, self replicating little biological things. Your cancer is closer to you genetically than your brother, sister, mother or father. Most machine learning products atm are read-only (I'm thinking of things like machine learning cameras that detect/track objects) Learning requires a write, but doing doesn't. Only need to teach the machine once. Selection pressure doesn't mean anything to something that doesn't reproduce.
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May 18, 2017 09:26
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Corbyn doesn't need to be hyper intelligent. Corbyn doesn't even need to learn, he just needs to do. Corbyn doesn't experience any selection pressure because corbyn doesn't reproduce. He does not evolve, he doesn't need to change.
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May 18, 2017 09:28
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Communism doesn't require an AI to direct production.
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May 18, 2017 09:31
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Just needs some hyperwealthy elite corrupt
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May 18, 2017 09:32
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In actual british election news May has decided to end free school lunches for kids. Going to means test the winter fuel allowance too
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May 18, 2017 10:15
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rudatron posted:It's nothing to do with 'human' pathologies, that cancer example I gave wasn't irrelevant. Nothing ever works perfectly, mutations are inevitable, and self-interest is the only 'stable' outcome over time. Eventually, a cosmic ray is going to flip a bit in a specific register, and your NO SELFHOOD constraining code is gonna fail. Just because it's 'artificial', doesn't mean it's immune to selection pressures. It has absolutely everything to do with human pathologies. Like, your basic premise here is that the perfect AI is by default a super intelligent human but with all of humanities darker impulses disabled. It's only a matter of time before cosmic rays awaken him to the eternal law of rational self interest and he murders everyone. It's fundamentally absurd. The problem is that you're still looking at everything through an anthropocentric lens. There are compelling and interesting explanations for why humans have, over millions of years of evolution, developed the capacity to feel paranoid fear about our own death, or anger and frustration when we feel like we're not being appreciated. It makes zero sense for an AI to share those same drives, not only are they incredibly resource intensive, they're counter intuitive to the purpose they serve. It's like worrying that your AI will be bitten by a radioactive peacock and with it's new found sense of self and self interest it'll crash the global economy making peacock feathers to attract a female AI. It's a very limited and specific fear Digiwizzard has issued a correction as of 10:25 on May 18, 2017 |
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May 18, 2017 10:22
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Jose posted:In actual british election news May has decided to end free school lunches for kids. Going to means test the winter fuel allowance too I can't wait for the British electorate to be polled on these issues! 
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May 18, 2017 10:32
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If recent polling history is any indication, they'll poll strongly against it, but May herself will still poll well and the conservatives will be a shoe in.
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May 18, 2017 10:41
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rudatron posted:Ergo, the multicultural dream, of distinct and totally separate communities, with nothing in common, all tolerating each other, is bullshit. It doesn't work. More to the point: why would anyone want this? (On Robot Space Lenin: the problem isn't it going wrong for human-like reasons, the problem is it going wrong for utterly insane robot reasons)
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May 18, 2017 10:52
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When robots can be programmed to do any job the first job the rich will program them to do is to kill the poor.
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May 18, 2017 10:57
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https://twitter.com/afcSharky/status/864873300329156609 this is so cringe
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May 18, 2017 11:30
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I just wanted to say how proud I am of the thread that ya'll are discussing space communism rather than responding to hakimashou
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May 18, 2017 11:34
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Labour up 8 points according to a phone poll lol Lib dems on 7%  UKIP on 2%  http://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...r-a3542256.html
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May 18, 2017 11:37
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exmarx posted:https://twitter.com/afcSharky/status/864873300329156609 Isn't this the guy who blamed "The Left" for Donald Trump winning? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-rxp_QwjmQ Now compare that to this. Pener Kropoopkin has issued a correction as of 12:08 on May 18, 2017 |
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May 18, 2017 11:58
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Baloogan posted:Oh hey you independently rediscovered why communism doesn't work. lmbo
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May 18, 2017 12:35
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In fairness actually existing communist regimes never succeeded enough to get to the point where actual communism would have failed due to human nature.
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May 18, 2017 13:02
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May 18, 2017 13:07
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Dementia tax is catching on and May is going to back track on it almost certainly becaucse its suicidal policy
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May 18, 2017 13:15
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