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Vincent Van Goatse posted:It's more that I think Robert E. Lee, as one of America's most famous and successful generals, ought to have some sort of monument even if he was a slave-holding Confederate son of a bitch. Nah. To paraphrase a discussion elsewhere today (I live in New Orleans, so this has been all over), the forces of the Confederacy all fought for what we rightly judge to be evil aims. To highlight and honor sacrifices and efforts made in the service of evil is to highlight and honor evil. ...and this is one of the few points that the Louisiana Black Legislative Caucus and Richard Spencer agree on, in fact, that Confederate monuments highlight white supremacy.
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May 18, 2017 04:49
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:It's more that I think Robert E. Lee, as one of America's most famous and successful generals, ought to have some sort of monument even if he was a slave-holding Confederate son of a bitch. He distinguished himself bearing arms against the United States in the service of a treasonous rebellion and his monument should have been a noose, a stout elm and an unmarked grave.
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May 18, 2017 04:49
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:It's more that I think Robert E. Lee, as one of America's most famous and successful generals, ought to have some sort of monument even if he was a slave-holding Confederate son of a bitch. Heh, no? Fame and temporary successes in the service of an evil cause deserve scorn, not monuments. Lee betrayed his country in a time of crisis to save a horrific policy of slavery, and caused the deaths of thousands of loyal men fighting for democracy and equality. It is nearly as disgusting to idolize him as to idolize Nazi generals.
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May 18, 2017 05:02
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Ainsley McTree posted:crossposting something i learned in the political forwards thread today in response to me making a joke about george washington setting his slaves free after he died Lee freed Custis' slaves after 5 years, as mandated in the man's will. Lee had a plantation to run. You didn't think he freed them without puttting them to work first, did you?
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May 18, 2017 05:02
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ulmont posted:Nah. To paraphrase a discussion elsewhere today (I live in New Orleans, so this has been all over), the forces of the Confederacy all fought for what we rightly judge to be evil aims. To highlight and honor sacrifices and efforts made in the service of evil is to highlight and honor evil. Hey, like I said, I was feeling generous. Ideally the monument would be in Appomattox next to a much larger statue of U.S. Grant. We should put up a statue of Spoons Butler in New Orleans and Bill Sherman in Atlanta and Savannah. And blow up Stone Mountain.
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May 18, 2017 05:04
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:And blow up Stone Mountain. alternatively, make an addition by carving Pac-Man next to Davis and make the whole thing a permanent mockery of what it's supposed to represent
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May 18, 2017 05:29
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Someone [tell] me about howitzers in the Napoleonic wars.
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May 18, 2017 05:40
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:It's more that I think Robert E. Lee, as one of America's most famous and successful generals, ought to have some sort of monument even if he was a slave-holding Confederate son of a bitch. I would support a monument recognizing Robert E. Lee's contribution in the Mexican-American war. Then put a big loving asterisk on there at the end.
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May 18, 2017 05:58
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Oh boy... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVOzMZ4IrMA
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May 18, 2017 08:04
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:It's more that I think Robert E. Lee, as one of America's most famous and successful generals, ought to have some sort of monument even if he was a slave-holding Confederate son of a bitch. Do you think Germany should have one of Rommel? And that guy was at least involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler.
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May 18, 2017 08:34
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feedmegin posted:Do you think Germany should have one of Rommel? And that guy was at least involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler. Nah. Lutjens on the other hand...
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May 18, 2017 08:37
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This is going to suck, and I'll probably see it on opening day.
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May 18, 2017 08:40
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I was hoping it would be entirely about Churchill trying to get the Allies to do a naval invasion, following him from WWI and his plan to invade Northern Germany, to the debacle at Gallipoli and then finally going through every possible permutation of a naval landing until D-Day. Vincent Van Goatse posted:This is going to suck, and I'll probably see it on opening day. Hell, same.
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May 18, 2017 08:47
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:This is going to suck, and I'll probably see it on opening day.
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May 18, 2017 09:03
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Judging from the trailer, they're portraying Churchill as less than one tenth of the raging rear end in a top hat he was - immersion ruined.
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May 18, 2017 09:38
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Make a monument depicting Lee being punched by a black guy. Alternatively: Lee already has a monument to his 'success'. It's called the Arlington national cemetery.
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May 18, 2017 09:39
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Fangz posted:Make a monument depicting Lee being punched by a black guy. 
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May 18, 2017 09:44
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feedmegin posted:Do you think Germany should have one of Rommel? And that guy was at least involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler. Holy gently caress, no. In fact, every time Rommel's name comes up somewhere in the Bundeswehr, it always causes a giant scandal. Because Rommel was a stout defender of Hitler for most of his reign. Only when Hitler went full on retard at the end of the war did Rommel even contemplate breaking with him. And he wasn't "involved" in the assassination plot, he was asked to join but refused. Goebbel's brother has a better claim to a monument, considering he secretly worked to save as many Jews as he could.
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May 18, 2017 10:55
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As far as the United States was concerned Lee had one job, which was to lose. He was merely rather incompetent at that for a while.
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May 18, 2017 10:58
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Libluini posted:Holy gently caress, no. In fact, every time Rommel's name comes up somewhere in the Bundeswehr, it always causes a giant scandal. Because Rommel was a stout defender of Hitler for most of his reign. Only when Hitler went full on retard at the end of the war did Rommel even contemplate breaking with him. And he wasn't "involved" in the assassination plot, he was asked to join but refused. I'm still baffled why the gently caress they named a destroyer after him in 1969?
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May 18, 2017 11:09
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Id presume that it was because a lot of the people in German defence at the time were veterans of WW2 and remembered him fondly and the Navy is the only branch that really gets to name things after people given the established naming schemes for armored vehicles.
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May 18, 2017 11:11
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there were way more nazis in german postwar life than you'd think it was even worse in italy, mussolini's granddaughter is active in politics right now and she's 100% unreconstructed
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May 18, 2017 12:18
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HEY GAIL posted:there were way more nazis in german postwar life than you'd think My uncle has a parrot called 'Benito' that knows how to say 'Sporchi Communisti!'
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May 18, 2017 12:21
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Fun fact: Rommel's son was the Mayor of Stuttgart for a while in the 70's, and became friends with both Patton and Monty's kids around that time.
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May 18, 2017 12:30
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Lütjens was about as anti-Nazi as you could be and still reach flag rank in Nazi Germany. He ignored directives to kick Jewish officers out of the Kriegsmarine when he was the head of the personnel office, wrote a formal complaint about the Nuremberg laws to his superior, and refused to perform the Nazi salute even in front of Hitler. If he'd survived the Bismarck sortie he would have definitely been one of the July plotters.
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May 18, 2017 14:30
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HEY GAIL posted:there were way more nazis in german postwar life than you'd think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJRUDaw8DJE So viele alte Kameraden!
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May 18, 2017 14:31
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Tias posted:Judging from the trailer, they're portraying Churchill as less than one tenth of the raging rear end in a top hat he was - immersion ruined. I think these days this is the only Churchill I can tolerate now.
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May 18, 2017 14:33
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:He distinguished himself bearing arms against the United States in the service of a treasonous rebellion and his monument should have been a noose, a stout elm and an unmarked grave. If this attitude had been the prevailing one in the North after the war ended, the aftermath would have been much uglier.
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May 18, 2017 15:16
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Phanatic posted:If this attitude had been the prevailing one in the North after the war ended, the aftermath would have been much uglier. A sentence you can basically only write if you don't think 100 years of Jim Crow aka no rights for Black people was particularly 'ugly'.
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May 18, 2017 15:29
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So, who here loves soldier slang? I just discovered a fantastic gem on Project Guntenberg! The 1811 DICTIONARY OF THE VULGAR TONGUE is the perfect guide to the less than stellar slang of the Napoleonic Wars. It also includes some stuff from prisoners, students and other civilians the military stuff of course being very easily to identify. I'll post the preface and a few examples below! quote:The merit of Captain Grose's Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue has been long and universally acknowledged. But its circulation was confined almost exclusively to the lower orders of society: he was not aware, at the time of its compilation, that our young men of fashion would at no very distant period be as distinguished for the vulgarity of their jargon as the inhabitants of Newgate; and he therefore conceived it superfluous to incorporate with his work the few examples of fashionable slang that might occur to his observation. Some examples! quote:ALL NATIONS. A composition of all the different spirits
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May 18, 2017 15:29
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So an interesting thing about my family history is in regards to my grandfather and my great-uncle on my Italian side. The only thing that I have ever been told about the Second World War by my grandfather is that he was sent to a training camp while Sicily was underway. A bombing raid occurred and the trainees, himself included, were being kept in the barracks by a sergeant, but eventually were able to convince him to let them go. My grandfather ended up on a river side, and a bomb sent him flying into the river, where he was about to drown, when suddenly another bomb blew him back to shore and he managed to make his way home. He never really wanted to talk about the war and it was clear that it had affected him deeply. My great-uncle was captured by the British in Ethiopia and by the time he came back home, he was still a fervent Fascist. This was attributed to the fact that he hadn't been in Italy during the Italian invasion/takeover by Germany/partisan action, and hence he held on to those beliefs. My uncle was affected by the fascist beliefs of my great-uncle, hence why he is a fascist himself. Thankfully my dad was left-leaning.
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May 18, 2017 15:30
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Alchenar posted:A sentence you can basically only write if you don't think 100 years of Jim Crow aka no rights for Black people was particularly 'ugly'. That's a sentence you can basically only write if you can't distinguish between degrees of ugliness. You think if the North started rounding up and executing everyone who served in the CSA that things would have gone *better* for blacks in the south?
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May 18, 2017 15:31
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Hard to imagine how it could've been worse.
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May 18, 2017 15:34
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We really need to get past this notion that the only reason Jim Crow happened and that things were lovely for blacks was the failure of reconstruction. It goes way, way deeper than that. You never have de jure segregation in the north, for example, but you sure as poo poo had de facto segregation caused by the every day racist BS that white people in the north were doing. The second you see the Great Migration kick off you have serious racial tensions in the north and a lot of the same ugly bullshit that made the south so unpleasant. This is something that MLK noticed and talked about frequently, especially as it related to housing. Racism was also far deeper rooted in the south than people who say that hanging Jefferson & Lee would have fixed things seem to understand. It penetrated society to a very deep level, far beyond the planter class that made up the south's political elite. The problem is that most people are looking at the US as it stood in the 1950s and drawing conclusions from that. Race relations in the north started getting significantly better starting around the 1930s/1940s, but even then there were still major injustices and tensions. If you look at the US as a whole in, say, 1910 the north is pretty lovely as well. Race in the US is a deeply hosed issue that goes way beyond whether the southern planter class was allowed to move on after the ACW.
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May 18, 2017 15:41
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Phanatic posted:If this attitude had been the prevailing one in the North after the war ended, the aftermath would have been much uglier. It's true. Forgiving everybody was key to burying resentments the war caused. As for Lee, he may have been on the wrong side, but like a lot of people in the Confederacy, he was fighting for reasons *other* than slavery.
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May 18, 2017 16:06
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Nah. Lutjens on the other hand... Or Canaris. He really hamstrung military intelligence which did the allies a lot of good.
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May 18, 2017 16:12
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zoux posted:Hard to imagine how it could've been worse. Imagine like Iraq for the last 15 years but even worse for ethnic minorities.
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May 18, 2017 16:15
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Cyrano4747 posted:You never have de jure segregation in the north, for example, but you sure as poo poo had de facto segregation caused by the every day racist BS that white people in the north were doing. The second you see the Great Migration kick off you have serious racial tensions in the north and a lot of the same ugly bullshit that made the south so unpleasant. This is something that MLK noticed and talked about frequently, especially as it related to housing. Yep. There's a reason why people fly the traitor's flag in ex-Union states.
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May 18, 2017 16:16
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xthetenth posted:Yep. There's a reason why people fly the traitor's flag in ex-Union states. Yesterday I was eating at a restaurant and some guy at the table next to me was holding court for his companions talking about how he's had this Nazi flag that his dad gave him in his closet for the last 40 years and he was lamenting that he can't display it because, and I swear to god this is true, "because the astigmatism against Nazis is so bad". He then said that these days, you can't even buy a Confederate flag anywhere but you can buy an ISIS flag. I don't think he was a Nazi or an out and out white supremacist, he was just a white guy in his 50s who likes WWII, but goddamn that's some ignorant poo poo.
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May 18, 2017 16:26
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I think the equivalent of the Nuremburg trials and denazification for the confederates would have been a vast improvement on how things turned out.
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May 18, 2017 16:27
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