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Hazzard posted:For a revolution to happen you need a concentrated group of people who are convinced the almost certain death is worth attempting a change. I've heard the magic number is 5% of a group, but that seems low to me. You need a number of people, close enough that they can form a network which is greater than the people who will actively oppose the revolution and pray most people will sway with the wind rather than support the status quo. French and Russian revolutions didn't come out of nowhere. imo guns made revolts more likely to succeed has anyone researched this?
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May 19, 2017 15:09
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Hazzard posted:Edit: Suppose there is a slave revolt, where does it begin? A plantation? What will they arm themselves with, who will make the first move and almost certainly die? How will they make sure that somebody doesn't escape and bring in a militia of other group of armed men with guns? Look up the Haitian revolution, that one should explain how this could work out. Your theory of how peasants with swords have better chances at their uprising then peasants with guns is bad, though. I certainly don't remember hearing about how the many, many slave revolts of Sparta ended in total and easy victory for the slaves.
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May 19, 2017 15:45
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Haitian revolution doesn't get enough credit in frustrating Napoleon and his attempt to try and establish France in the Americas. Those Haitian soldiers were Hardcore.
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May 19, 2017 15:49
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The key things to remember about the Haitain revolution compared to the situation in the Southern states was: 1. Haiti was 90% slave/10% free, compared to around 50/50 for the Southern states 2. Haiti had both a major slave population and a mixed race middle class with access to money and education, which didn't have an equivalent in the South 3. Haiti was an ocean away from its controlling country, meaning there was a major time delay between events getting worse in Haiti and reinforcements/new orders arriving 4. There was a mountainous border region between Haiti and the Dominican Republic where slave soldiers could hang out and evade detection IIRC Haiti was the only successful slave revolt in history, so clearly a lot of things have be set up in order to allow one to succeed. Not that that makes slave revolutions much different from regular revolutions.
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May 19, 2017 16:01
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Also helps when half your enemy's soldiers are dead or in the hospital due to not being used to tropical diseases.
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May 19, 2017 16:03
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The entire antebellum southern society was pretty much set up to undermine slave uppity-ness. Most blacks were illiterate, communication outside of one's own plantation was practically impossible and often illegal, movement even of free blacks was highly restricted, any hint of insurrection was dealt with quickly and brutally, not just by the slaveowners, but often by the state government (whose harshness occasionally conflicted with the desires of the slaveowners - they didn't want their property so badly damaged). It is another good case of "they weren't stupid" in history - southern whites were terrified of slave rebellion and created a very effective system to prevent it. Blacks were equally not stupid - they knew that their chances of successfully rebelling were practically nonexistent and so when presented with a choice of 1) life in bondage or 2) resisting, most of them chose #1. This is kind of hard for modern people to understand, and it was hard even for some contemporaries (John Brown) to wrap their heads around. Things like the Underground Railroad were about as good as anyone could have done, and even that was iffy as hell most of the time.
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May 19, 2017 16:11
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While we're on the topic of slave revolts, does anyone know anything about the Zanj Rebellion or know of a decent writeup somewhere? I'm not looking for an entire book, I just want an idea of what happened because I really only stumbled on it by happenstance and don't really know more than what the wiki page has to offer.
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May 19, 2017 16:19
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bewbies posted:The entire antebellum southern society was pretty much set up to undermine slave uppity-ness. Most blacks were illiterate, communication outside of one's own plantation was practically impossible and often illegal, movement even of free blacks was highly restricted, any hint of insurrection was dealt with quickly and brutally, not just by the slaveowners, but often by the state government (whose harshness occasionally conflicted with the desires of the slaveowners - they didn't want their property so badly damaged). Yeah, the second resistance was actually viable thanks to the war they didn't hesitate to flee to union lines and become contrabands.
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May 19, 2017 16:41
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I think the Haitian rebellion, while I think reasonably justifiable did not help the case of slaves in the United States, as it pretty much gave propagandists advocating for slavery the perfect scare mongering material to peddle to white people across the country especially in the South. Thats not to say that slavery was roses in the South before then as it through and through is a wretched institution, but I think it caused people to double down on terrible racial institutions and viewpoints. I guess you could maybe topically compare it to the BLM today in regards to police brutality towards minorities, realistically its bad however snapping and going out and killing police isn't going to defuse tensions its just gonna make things even worse. As mentioned John Brown did that in 1859 with the Harpers Ferry stuff, and today the couple of people who snapped and killed police supposedly as payback. Those killings didn't necessarily help, except maybe move the needle towards a crisis point where two sides could not reach consensus. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 19:09 on May 19, 2017 |
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May 19, 2017 18:53
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The Servile Wars led to some favorable reforms for Roman slaves didn't they? Though the concept of Roman slavery was vastly different from American chattel slavery.
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May 19, 2017 19:07
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Yeah, but again, these comparisons are terrible, because now it's just saying BLM needs to kill all the police, or at least in in one state or something, to keep the Haiti comparison. Not cool, unless you're talking about a remake of the Warriors. Rockopolis fucked around with this message at 22:24 on May 19, 2017 |
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May 19, 2017 20:35
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cosmosisjones posted:Also helps when half your enemy's soldiers are dead or in the hospital due to not being used to tropical diseases. I'm reading Swords Around a Throne and I think everytime Haiti gets mentioned it's followed by someone dying. Usually lots of someones. On the topic of slave revolts there's a Jack Goldstone book about Revolutions in the Early Modern that talks about conditions necessary for a successful revolution and almost all of these are totally absent for the South. You need a lot to create a successful revolution such as elite dissatisfaction, mass mobilization potential, a change in economic circumstances particularly among the agrarian landlords, and other elements that are absent from the South.
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May 19, 2017 21:48
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Rockopolis posted:Yeah, but again, these comparisons are terrible, because now it's just saying BLK needs to kill all the police, or at least in in one state or something, to keep the Haiti comparison. I didn't mean that and probably used a bad example there, the scales are way different. Maybe a better example would be I guess John Brown and the Harper's Ferry Raid. Guy incredibly frustrated with the abolitionist movement being mostly pacifist decides to take matters into his own hands and goes and takes violent action. It doesn't really accomplish much and he dies. However provides the perfect propaganda tool to galvanize southerners against abolitionists, blacks and make them terrified of what might happen if the slaves get freed. Contrast too now, Micah Johnson gets frustrated with peaceful protest attempts by BLM to get the police to stop doing their lovely policies and murdering black men for a variety of bad reasons, he takes violent action that doesn't really accomplish much and he dies. Gives police departments and supporters the perfect propaganda to play the victim card and "police are the real victims" and rally up support to the Blue Lives Matter. Although maybe this is steering too much into DD territory... Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 22:23 on May 19, 2017 |
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May 19, 2017 22:20
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Jack2142 posted:I didn't mean that and probably used a bad example there, the scales are way different. yes
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May 19, 2017 22:44
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while reading about rebellions i found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1797_Rugby_School_Rebellion The boys were outraged and, on a Friday afternoon, blew up the door of the Headmaster's study with a petard.
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May 19, 2017 22:45
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Didn't one of William the Conqueror's sons rebel because his brothers dumped a chamber pot on them in a prank?
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May 19, 2017 22:51
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May 19, 2017 22:59
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Hogge Wild posted:while reading about rebellions i found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1797_Rugby_School_Rebellion That was the most 18th century thing I've ever read.
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May 19, 2017 23:37
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One of the weirder war related things I think I've ever seen:
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May 19, 2017 23:59
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chitoryu12 posted:That was the most 18th century thing I've ever read. quote:One of the ringleaders, Willoughby Cotton later became a lieutenant general in the army. Another became a bishop.
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May 20, 2017 00:24
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Nebakenezzer posted:One of the weirder war related things I think I've ever seen: M-1 Corkscrew
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May 20, 2017 00:25
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The ensuing wave of drunkenness is implied and need not be officially recorded
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May 20, 2017 01:26
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chitoryu12 posted:That was the most 18th century thing I've ever read.
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May 20, 2017 02:05
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HEY GAIL posted:petards are good, ain't seen one of them in a while Did they work in the 18th century? I would have thought they'd be difficult enough without trying to use them on some kind of hellish 18th century fortification.
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May 20, 2017 02:14
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OwlFancier posted:Did they work in the 18th century? I would have thought they'd be difficult enough without trying to use them on some kind of hellish 18th century fortification.   (look how tattered and skinny the soldiers in the second image are! i bet this one was drawn from life)
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May 20, 2017 02:18
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Oh I know I mean how do you get them to the door past the rest of the fortifications? I thought they were mostly used shortly after the invention of gunpowder against outdated medieval fortifications.
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May 20, 2017 02:19
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OwlFancier posted:Oh I know I mean how do you get them to the door past the rest of the fortifications?
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May 20, 2017 02:21
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The idea of people running around with 18th century blocks of C4 using them on random buildings is kind of terrifying.
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May 20, 2017 02:24
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OwlFancier posted:The idea of people running around with 18th century blocks of C4 using them on random buildings is kind of terrifying. It was just as terrifying for the sappers and whatever poor bastard soldiers they roped into using the thing. The 17th century approach to gun powder safety is crazy.
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May 20, 2017 02:37
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SeanBeansShako posted:The 17th century approach to gun powder safety is crazy. for example, before they invented the cloth cartridge for artillery you put the powder down the tube with a big ladle, and eyewitness accounts mention, after a day of hard fighting, seeing black lines of spilled powder back and forth between the cannon and the barrels where the ammunition was stored, since it'd sift out of the ladles as the artillerists walked
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May 20, 2017 02:40
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Every time I read the phrase 'lines of gun powder' I picture a fortress full of Portuguese soldiers blowing up in the middle of a frantic assault.
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May 20, 2017 02:49
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also if you have no salt at the time and get issued fresh meat, you can preserve your meat with it
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May 20, 2017 02:55
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HEY GAIL posted:also if you have no salt at the time and get issued fresh meat, you can preserve your meat with it gross Did it alter the flavor any
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May 20, 2017 03:17
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HEY GAIL posted:
I spent way too long trying to figure out what the bottom row was spelling Presumably the opposite of "coexist" in german
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May 20, 2017 03:20
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I mean, saltpeter is potassium nitrate, so it's edible. It might be a problem if you extract it from decomposing manure or urine.
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May 20, 2017 03:23
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Phobophilia posted:I mean, saltpeter is potassium nitrate, so it's edible. They used to put gunpowder in whiskey back in the old west days, didn't they? Or was that just a legend? I learned it during my cheap whiskey drinking days while trying to figure out how literal the term "rotgut" is (turns out it used to be quite literal, though comparatively not so much anymore if my research is to be believed)
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May 20, 2017 03:27
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Nebakenezzer posted:gross
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May 20, 2017 03:28
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Rub it on the meat and then when you want to eat the meat hold a match to it.
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May 20, 2017 04:04
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Somebody should do a historical soldier food book. Cuirass fried horse flank.
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May 20, 2017 04:09
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SeanBeansShako posted:Somebody should do a historical soldier food book. Tobasco Sauce on Everything - A Modern British Infantryman's Cookbook
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May 20, 2017 04:11
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