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Given the support expressed for the IRA in this thread it surprises me that the same group of people should be outraged when it's suggested that Corbyn also sympathises with the same terrorist organisation.
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May 21, 2017 14:20
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Btw another bad debating tactic is trying to reduce the thing to two overly simplistic views, with yours framed as the more virtuous
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May 21, 2017 14:21
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*in incredibly nuanced voice* The 'Ra and UDA etc. were all in fact bad, and Ireland is fundamentally ununite-able without burdening the southern Irish with a bunch of people who don't want to be in their country, and would in many cases be made redundant from their work because the gigantic wealth transfers from the British state that allow for many thousands of people to be in public sector make-work would not exist.
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May 21, 2017 14:23
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knox_harrington posted:It's not a great thing for someone attempting to lead the british state to have said. Pretty sure Mandela must have said some pretty choice things about the South African state in his time.
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May 21, 2017 14:24
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forkboy84 posted:Saying Corbyn "supported the IRA" is some top tier shitbaggery too. It's true, though. He's certainly invited the IRA Political Wing to have lunch in Parliament enough times. Irony Be My Shield posted:Are you suggesting it's unacceptable for an opposition MP to oppose the position of the government? In as much as the Opposition wishes to present alternative ways of bettering the nation, not actively conspiring to harm and diminish it, which has been Corbyn's objective with the IRA. Corbyn only wanted 'peace' in as much IRA victory counts as peace. Corbyn and his cronies' equivocation over the IRA demonstrates is that he fundamentally cannot be relied upon to defend Britain or British interests. Even if Corbyn himself has been circumspect enough not to let too much slip in public (although the mealy-mouthed "I condemn all bombing (by the UK governement)" non-apologies dragged out of him sometimes show the mask slipping) his close allies have welcomed and celebrated attacks on the very country they aspire to control. In any future international disputes Corbyn can only be expected to deliberately belittle and impoverish his own country, whether through supine naïveté, the yea-unto-the-fourth-generation dogma that Britain must be eternally punished for colonial history, or active conspiracy to foreign powers as a Useful Idiot. Even if you want to think the best of a Corbyn as only wanting peace (in our time), in a Brexit future where foreign policy will be more important than ever, Corbyn is untrustworthy. kapparomeo fucked around with this message at 14:28 on May 21, 2017 |
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May 21, 2017 14:24
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Ewan posted:It's not so much an attempt to move away/deflect from things where people have disagreed with me, than it is people's responses making me think of other aspects of the topic that I then want to explore. I also often write in a style that seems hostile, which probably doesn't help. I'm telling you there is: acknowledge the points people are making before you move on to a different angle. That's it.
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May 21, 2017 14:30
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Ewan posted:It's not so much an attempt to move away/deflect from things where people have disagreed with me, than it is people's responses making me think of other aspects of the topic that I then want to explore. I also often write in a style that seems hostile, which probably doesn't help. Ah, the puppetmaster defence
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May 21, 2017 14:34
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kapparomeo posted:It's true, though. He's certainly invited the IRA Political Wing to have lunch in Parliament enough times. The "IRA Political Wing" have offices in Parliament.
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May 21, 2017 14:34
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I think it's worth remembering that Corbyn (and McDonnell and Abbot) supported and voted for the settlement that was finally reached in 1998. He may have thought a united Ireland was the correct solution at some point but he ultimately accepted the outcome of the peace process that was reached through honest negotiations. http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1998/jul/31/northern-ireland-bill big scary monsters posted:The "IRA Political Wing" have offices in Parliament.
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May 21, 2017 14:36
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kapparomeo posted:It's true, though. He's certainly invited the IRA Political Wing to have lunch in Parliament enough times. How do you think they talked to them when arranging the good Friday agreement?
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May 21, 2017 14:37
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I thought they never turned up? They don't take their seats in Commons but they do normal constituency work and go to Westminster regularly.
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May 21, 2017 14:39
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What do they do in Westminster if not attend parliament then?
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May 21, 2017 14:40
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Meet with Jeremy Corbyn.
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May 21, 2017 14:41
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kapparomeo posted:It's true, though. He's certainly invited the IRA Political Wing to have lunch in Parliament enough times. If you were any denser I'd be afraid you were a neutron star. Ewan posted:My position now is that many people are distorting (intentionally or not) Corbyn's relations with the IRA and others, as a) talking to terrorists to reach peace because no one else would, rather than b) talking to terrorists who share your vision to try to reach peace that specifically aligns with that vision. You're treating a complex issue in a child-like manner, where everything is black & white, either or. It's not. In the real world issues can be complex and simply saying A GOOD B BAD is entirely unhelpful. You can agree with someone's aims while disagreeing their method of getting there, and you can hope to convince them of the validity of your argument by discussing it with them. Supporting Irish reunification and supporting the IRA & their campaign of terrorism are not the same thing. Engaging in debate with you does not mean I agree with the drivel you are spouting.
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May 21, 2017 14:42
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forkboy84 posted:If you were any denser I'd be afraid you were a neutron star.
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May 21, 2017 14:48
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Ewan posted:I agree with everything you say here, and not sure my last few posts contradict it. I didn't say the part in bold - I said he supported the IRA cause (united Ireland), but that people who defend his actions often shy away from accepting that and acknowledging that it opposed the UK government position at the time (which in itself is not necessarily a bad thing). Okay, so you agree that Corbyn's actions wrt the troubles were cool and good, glad we got this sorted.
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May 21, 2017 14:51
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Ewan posted:I agree with everything you say here, and not sure my last few posts contradict it. I didn't say the part in bold - I said he supported the IRA cause (united Ireland), but that people who defend his actions often shy away from accepting that and acknowledging that it opposed the UK government position at the time (which in itself is not necessarily a bad thing). But this isn't a thing anyone here has denied either? Like, no poo poo he opposed the UK government position on Irish reunification. He also opposed them on Apartheid in South Africa & in Israel but I don't see you thinking that is somehow a bad thing. Like I said earlier, this is a free country right? If you think the government are doing something bad or stupid you not only can say so, you should. I genuinely struggle to see how you can agree with the point about what he did re: Ireland & yet somehow view it as a problem. c0burn posted:How do you think they talked to them when arranging the good Friday agreement? Kapparomeo probably thinks the Good Friday Agreement was a horrible betrayal to good Unionist heroes like Billy Wright, John Gregg and Michael Stone and we should take back the colony of Ireland.
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May 21, 2017 14:51
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forkboy84 posted:If you were any denser I'd be afraid you were a neutron star. Ironic given UKMT usually reacts to differing views by telling the poster to gently caress off. Corbyn's actions were pretty bad and will continue to damage him in the polls.
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May 21, 2017 14:55
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forkboy84 posted:I genuinely struggle to see how you can agree with the point about what he did re: Ireland & yet somehow view it as a problem. Once you've swallowed "IRA BAD UK ARMED FORCES GOOD", nuance and critical thought loses its grip on you. knox_harrington posted:Ironic given UKMT usually reacts to differing views by telling the poster to gently caress off. gently caress off
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May 21, 2017 14:55
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Do politicians still condemn the IRA? It seems weird to condemn a group that laid down its arms almost 20 years ago.
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May 21, 2017 14:57
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knox_harrington posted:Ironic given UKMT usually reacts to differing views by telling the poster to gently caress off. I agree it will damage him in the polls, because fuckwits like you either don't understand what you are talking about or are perfectly happily spouting bollocks. It certainly is not bad to be willing to look for ways to make peace a possibility in the midst of an armed conflict. And yes, you can gently caress right off for implying otherwise. kapparomeo posted:I don't think Agreed.
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May 21, 2017 14:59
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forkboy84 posted:Kapparomeo probably thinks the Good Friday Agreement was a horrible betrayal to good Unionist heroes like Billy Wright, John Gregg and Michael Stone and we should take back the colony of Ireland. I don't think a lot of useful negotiation for the Good Friday Agreement took place when Corbyn invited Gerry Adams to the Commons three weeks after the Brighton hotel bombing.
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May 21, 2017 14:59
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Do politicians still condemn the IRA? It seems weird to condemn a group that laid down its arms almost 20 years ago. A lot of politicians still view the British imperialist history as a thing to be celebrated and revered. You can't have heroes without villains, so it's very important to keep pushing the 'IRA evil!!' narrative.
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May 21, 2017 15:00
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kapparomeo posted:I don't think a lot of useful negotiation for the Good Friday Agreement took place when Corbyn invited Gerry Adams to the Commons three weeks after the Brighton hotel bombing. He invited an elected MP to the house of commons? Hanging's too good for him
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May 21, 2017 15:00
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kapparomeo posted:It's true, though. He's certainly invited the IRA Political Wing to have lunch in Parliament enough times. You're a garbage apologist for the worst of the British Empire though so who gives a gently caress what you have to say.
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May 21, 2017 15:01
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think it's worth remembering that Corbyn (and McDonnell and Abbot) supported and voted for the settlement that was finally reached in 1998. He may have thought a united Ireland was the correct solution at some point but he ultimately accepted the outcome of the peace process that was reached through honest negotiations. This is probably the correct answer. During the Troubles Corbyn or anyone else could have been forgiven for thinking the quickest and surest path to peace was the withdrawal of British troops and Irish reunification. No-one can even say with surety that he was wrong to think that. But instead we got a drawn-out bloodbath that did eventually end with peace in the form of the Good Friday agreement, which Corbyn supported. forkboy84 posted:I agree it will damage him in the polls, because fuckwits like you either don't understand what you are talking about or are perfectly happily spouting bollocks. Honestly, I think unless the papers have footage of Corbyn brandishing an Armalite the poll damage has already been factored in. Most people who would care about the history of Corbyn and the IRA already know about it, and a few more front page stories rehashing old supposed evidence of his support isn't going to make much difference. jabby fucked around with this message at 15:03 on May 21, 2017 |
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May 21, 2017 15:01
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forkboy84 posted:But this isn't a thing anyone here has denied either? Like, no poo poo he opposed the UK government position on Irish reunification. He also opposed them on Apartheid in South Africa & in Israel but I don't see you thinking that is somehow a bad thing. Like I said earlier, this is a free country right? If you think the government are doing something bad or stupid you not only can say so, you should. Without also being prepared to argue for Unified Ireland as a good thing, arguments defending his actions are pretty quickly nullified.
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May 21, 2017 15:02
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https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/866289408286314496 E: It's been way too long since I took a course on statistics, but doesn't that labour line look a bit low?
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May 21, 2017 15:03
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forkboy84 posted:I agree it will damage him in the polls, because fuckwits like you either don't understand what you are talking about or are perfectly happily spouting bollocks.
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May 21, 2017 15:06
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And the tory line is a bit high; that's because the trend line is deliberately laggy. Look at how the Tory line takes a while to move up post-graph start.
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May 21, 2017 15:06
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Ewan posted:It is a problem because those defending Corbyn in general try to defend his actions as "trying to achieve peace" and gloss over that he was also doing so also to achieve an aim of a unified Ireland. I am not saying that in itself is a bad thing - but it can't be ignored when debating whether what he did was good or bad. This doesn't take in the context that 2017 is slightly different than 1987. Like, I support the reunification of Ireland theoretically but only if the people of Northern Ireland vote for it, either by sending more republican MPs to Westminster, more republican MLAs to Stormont if it ever reopens, or in a referendum. It's not as urgent an issue as it once was because the Catholic minority is less oppressed than it used to be. This is good. Things in Northern Ireland are better than they were 20 ago even with the current crisis at Stormont. Thus reunification is not actually a huge deal now compared to the bad old days. Also yes, yes you can defend his actions while not arguing for a unified Ireland, because you can accept the principle that trying to find some ground to end an arm conflict and work towards a negotiated peace is a good thing even without agreeing with the aims of the group.
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May 21, 2017 15:11
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TheRat posted:https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/866289408286314496 Britain Elects either doesn't realise that a rolling average is not particularly useful during a period of extremely rapid shift in polling, or they do.
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May 21, 2017 15:13
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TheRat posted:https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/866289408286314496 It's a moving average, not a line of best fit, so the line will appear to lag behind the data points a bit. e/ as jabby says it's probably not the best choice for clarity (ignoring whether it's a deliberate political choice), but more forgivable than most graph fuckery imo given they've properly labelled the chart saying what they've done Renaissance Robot fucked around with this message at 15:17 on May 21, 2017 |
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May 21, 2017 15:14
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TheRat posted:Desperate people do desperate things. They are a 'terrorist organisation' because the people with power named them as such. I would make the bold statement that the British government killed a lot more civilians than IRA did. I will condemn IRA the day Theresa May goes to Belfast and one by one condemns every single politician and official who voted for or otherwise facilitated the armed occupation of Northern Ireland. Deal? Organisation Responsible for the death:
British Army (BA) 297 British Police (BP) 1 Catholic Reaction Force (CRF) 3 Direct Action Against Drugs (DAAD) 5 Garda Siochana (GS) 4 Irish Army (IA) 1 Irish National Liberation Army (INLA) 113 Irish People's Liberation Organisation (IPLO) 22 Irish People's Liberation Organisation Belfast Brigade (IPLOBB) 2 Irish Republican Army (IRA) 1705 Loyalist Retaliation and Defence Group (LRDG) 2 Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF) 18 non-specific Loyalist group (LOY) 256 non-specific Republican group (REP) 91 not known (nk) 80 Official Irish Republican Army (OIRA) 53 People's Liberation Army (PLA) 3 People's Republican Army (PRA) 4 Protestant Action Force (PAF) 37 Protestant Action Group (PAG) 5 real Irish Republican Army (rIRA) 29 Red Hand Commando (RHC) 13 Red Hand Defenders (RHD) 8 Republican Action Force (RepAF) 24 Royal Air Force (RAF) 1 Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) 55 Saor Eire (SE) 3 Ulster Defence Association (UDA) 113 Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR) 8 Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF) 147 Ulster Special Constabulary (USC) 1 Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) 428 TOTAL 3532
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May 21, 2017 15:14
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MrL_JaKiri posted:And the tory line is a bit high; that's because the trend line is deliberately laggy. Look at how the Tory line takes a while to move up post-graph start. But the Labour line looks low throughout the entire timeline, no? The regression line is heavily weighted towards a few low points, and especially the point on ~may 3rd looks like an extreme outlier E: Ok, if it's not a regression line I'm probably just not clever enough to read the plots correctly. Never mind me. TheRat fucked around with this message at 15:18 on May 21, 2017 |
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May 21, 2017 15:16
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forkboy84 posted:This doesn't take in the context that 2017 is slightly different than 1987. Like, I support the reunification of Ireland theoretically but only if the people of Northern Ireland vote for it, either by sending more republican MPs to Westminster, more republican MLAs to Stormont if it ever reopens, or in a referendum. It's not as urgent an issue as it once was because the Catholic minority is less oppressed than it used to be. This is good. Things in Northern Ireland are better than they were 20 ago even with the current crisis at Stormont. Thus reunification is not actually a huge deal now compared to the bad old days. How about we take a break from this and watch Trump give his speech on Islam instead :popcorn: https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/866295099264815104
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May 21, 2017 15:19
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jabby posted:Britain Elects either doesn't realise that a rolling average is not particularly useful during a period of extremely rapid shift in polling, or they do. What's wrong with a rolling average?
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May 21, 2017 15:23
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Ewan posted:But that's not what he was doing - he explicitly supported the aims of the group... You seem to be getting very hung up on him being on the other 'side', do you not think the other side can have people being interesting in achieving that aim but also achieving peace? I think that's what it comes down to. Even if you're viewing his position as traitorous or some such, does it matter? Both sides came to an agreement and he supported it, I can understand being angry at him because he wanted something different but that's different from any sort of political accusation. namesake fucked around with this message at 15:28 on May 21, 2017 |
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May 21, 2017 15:23
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Pissflaps posted:What's wrong with a rolling average? jabby posted:Britain Elects either doesn't realise that a rolling average is not particularly useful during a period of extremely rapid shift in polling, or they do.
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May 21, 2017 15:26
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Ewan posted:But that's not what he was doing - he explicitly supported the aims of the group... Yes, he did. That's not what I'm getting at. I'm getting at negotiated settlements being better than armed conflict regardless of whether or not you agree or disagree with the aims of the groups involved in the conflict. Yes, Corbyn agreed with their aims but he still tried to negotiate with them because he thinks armed conflict is bad. That Corbyn agreed with a unified Ireland isn't actually that relevant. Lots of people did. Including Labour's sister party in Northern Ireland the SDLP. What's important is the part about working to create a dialogue with these groups that in the end lead to a peace settlement and years of Martin McGuinness as Deputy to Iain Paisley.
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May 21, 2017 15:34
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