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On an entirely non Cleric Stance related note I like that all the classes have different fancy names in the other supported languages but Bard is just "Bard, maybe with an E' in all of them.
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May 23, 2017 17:47
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ps the degree of jank you experience from cleric stance is heavily dependent on your connection and therefore inherently subjective, probably, maybe
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May 23, 2017 17:47
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strong bird posted:Yes, there was a game mechanic that punished bad players and rewarded good players, and that was good. Yeah except the punishment sucked when it happened and the rewards weren't even that exciting to begin with. Compare and contrast Dreadwyrm Trance, making a mistake and letting your charges drop off sucked and was a hit to your DPS. The reward was you got huge damage, you can fire off Ruin 3s like they were candy and you got access to the coolest looking ability in the entire game that did lots of damage. Meanwhile making a mistake in Cleric stance at best wasted time and at worst wasted cooldowns. And your reward for this excellent gameplay was your damage numbers were a little bigger. Wooooooooow such exciting mechanic, it's loss made the entire job of healing worse in it's absence. Clearly this game is now dead. Only in MMOs will people point at an obvious quality of life change and go "Urgh why are we catering to casuals."
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May 23, 2017 17:49
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The only time I cursed the Cleric Stance being on a 5s cooldown'y trapping me in thing was when my middle mouse button was on the blink so it was unreliable. But that's why Hydaelyn invented Benny.
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May 23, 2017 17:51
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I saw those peaks and thought how is this guy doing more dps than me doing in that fight doing the 2.0 rotation, but peaks aren't dps.  Reiterpallasch posted:Dropping CS does change the character of healing, though it's arguable whether that's good or not. That's because it allows weaving healing ogcds in between dps spells. Imagine this on a large exdr pull: swiftcast aero 3 (divine seal, assize), holy (regen), holy (tetra), holy, holy (bene). If anything, it'll probably make healers do higher dps than before, because you'll be able to dump a dps in during times you couldn't before because you were waiting for hard hitting poo poo in the next few seconds. 10% is raw dps is probably than a few GCD lost per fight most of the time.
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May 23, 2017 17:51
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If nothing else, it'll let you throw instant dots at full efficiency out during movement without having to go into Cleric if you're at a point where you can't be full DPS'ing.
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May 23, 2017 17:54
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TheNabster posted:your damage numbers were a little bigger. and if by a little bigger you meant a whm could easily shame every single other dps including summoners in dwt on huge trash pulls then yes I agree
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May 23, 2017 17:57
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Even if new Cleric Stance's numbers go way up, I think you're losing way too much in other skills to take it. The healer role abilities look boss as hell, and there are still a few unknowns.
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May 23, 2017 17:58
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Reiterpallasch posted:ps the degree of jank you experience from cleric stance is heavily dependent on your connection and therefore inherently subjective, probably, maybe This. Oxyclean posted:Off-topic but you have basically the best avatar.  Clearly we need to request more Fat-Catte related content in this expansion.
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May 23, 2017 17:59
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As a fresh 60 paladin, I am now hype as gently caress for Stormblood. I am gonna spread my wings and protect so many trial parties.
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May 23, 2017 18:02
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Ibram Gaunt posted:They just will continue to not hit those buttons. They aren't impacted negatively at all, only their groups. By 'lose' I meant that they will hopefully quit playing. So they would be hitting zero buttons and make everyones life so much better.
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May 23, 2017 18:02
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Velthice posted:and if by a little bigger you meant a whm could easily shame every single other dps including summoners in dwt on huge trash pulls then yes I agree I'm a Scholar that statement means nothing to me. I hit CS apply my DoTs, Bane and Shadowflare and press Broil until I need to do my job.
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May 23, 2017 18:06
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fyi your belief that axing CS is magically going to bring your healer play up to a reasonable standard is subjectively insane. even setting aside questions of player skill, stormblood healers will have to minimize clipping while weaving healing ogcds with damaging spells, which requires either supernaturally quick clicking or use of <mo>/<tt> macros that make cleric stance look like a jank molehill next to jank Everest
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May 23, 2017 18:09
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Rewarding good players is good, but punishing bad players is bad. That's my hot take on game development.
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May 23, 2017 18:09
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unseenlibrarian posted:On an entirely non Cleric Stance related note I like that all the classes have different fancy names in the other supported languages but Bard is just "Bard, maybe with an E' in all of them. 
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May 23, 2017 18:10
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IMO if you want to make Healer DPS engaging you want to give them actual rotations instead of a rote mechanical check that lets them swap between two fairly shallow play-modes.
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May 23, 2017 18:10
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TheNabster posted:I'm a Scholar that statement means nothing to me. I hit CS apply my DoTs, Bane and Shadowflare and press Broil until I need to do my job. well then by all means, you own personal experience gives you complete freedom to disregard everyone else's viewpoints entirely
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May 23, 2017 18:10
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also use blizzard 2 over broil in big pulls if you run exdr
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May 23, 2017 18:11
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God, dungeon queues are going to be MISERABLE. I'm gonna try and use pre-release to get SAM to 60 so at least I don't have to deal with that clusterfuck on launch
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May 23, 2017 18:11
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i say, as the mgs alert sound plays, before the camera pans to reveal the complete absence of blizzard 2 on my scholar bar
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May 23, 2017 18:12
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Thumbtacks posted:God, dungeon queues are going to be MISERABLE. I'm gonna try and use pre-release to get SAM to 60 so at least I don't have to deal with that clusterfuck on launch I wonder if SE has numbers that show pre-release is actually notably less congested than the formal launch day. I just assume 95% of the people who would play on June 20 are gonna play on June 16, especially since the latter is a Friday.
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May 23, 2017 18:13
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Heavensward was alright because they introduced a DPS a healer and a tank, so even if you had parties that had no idea what they were doing the queues were still mostly okay. Now though there's going to be like 60% more DPS than there usually is and probably not more tanks or healers.
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May 23, 2017 18:15
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I'm almost certain that 99% of the playerbase is going to be playing on early access considering the only requirements are order stormblood, and I have yet to meet an mmo player who was like "I'mma wait for the reviews" when a new expansion is about to hit.
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May 23, 2017 18:16
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Attorney at Funk posted:IMO if you want to make Healer DPS engaging you want to give them actual rotations instead of a rote mechanical check that lets them swap between two fairly shallow play-modes. Yeah, I think the correct way to make healer DPS fun is to make it a little more like caster DPS where your damage spells set each other up in ways besides having some be strictly better than others such that you cast them with higher priority. In fact, you could bring back a bit of the old cleric stance feel with a combo system - once you cast damage spell A, damage spell B lights up and will do more damage but only if it's the next spell you cast (rather than a cure of some kind). As is, cleric stance basically boiled down to an inability for healers to do either of the two following things with their GCD at full effect: Heal, attack, heal, heal Heal, attack, attack, heal This means that healers had to play around tank busters and other big hits to some degree but mostly being good at using cleric stance felt identical to not having cleric stance at all.
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May 23, 2017 18:17
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Thumbtacks posted:Heavensward was alright because they introduced a DPS a healer and a tank, so even if you had parties that had no idea what they were doing the queues were still mostly okay. I see a lot of people falling over themselves to play paladin in stormblood (it'll probably still be bad tho). also there'll probably be lots of enterprising tanks and healers charging per instance, just like when ninja was released
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May 23, 2017 18:19
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Countblanc posted:I wonder if SE has numbers that show pre-release is actually notably less congested than the formal launch day. I just assume 95% of the people who would play on June 20 are gonna play on June 16, especially since the latter is a Friday. Yeah, unless you *need* a physical copy, the barrier to early access seems basically non-existent. Thumbtacks posted:God, dungeon queues are going to be MISERABLE. I'm gonna try and use pre-release to get SAM to 60 so at least I don't have to deal with that clusterfuck on launch I'm really itching to play RDM and thinking I'll be getting it to 60 before I move into SB...but that also feels like it's going to be horrifyingly boring since I'll probably be relying on PotD with a greater then usual chance of wiping due to less healers and more people learning their job. I imagine someone's done the math - how many 51-60 PotD does 50-60 take? 45-50 felt gruelling when I did it on my MNK.
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May 23, 2017 18:20
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Sade posted:As a fresh 60 paladin, I am now hype as gently caress for Stormblood. I am gonna spread my wings and protect so many trial parties. i think you mean protecting no one because they will run out of it or be no where near you. Poops Mcgoots posted:Rewarding good players is good, but punishing bad players is bad. That's my hot take on game development. wheres my incentive to get good if im not punished for being bad.
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May 23, 2017 18:21
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Attorney at Funk posted:IMO if you want to make Healer DPS engaging you want to give them actual rotations instead of a rote mechanical check that lets them swap between two fairly shallow play-modes. There's a bit more to Healer DPS than swapping to Cleric and spamming Broil/Malefic 2/Stone 3 but yeah, it's not super deep.
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May 23, 2017 18:24
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Reiterpallasch posted:fyi your belief that axing CS is magically going to bring your healer play up to a reasonable standard is subjectively insane. even setting aside questions of player skill, stormblood healers will have to minimize clipping while weaving healing ogcds with damaging spells, which requires either supernaturally quick clicking or use of <mo>/<tt> macros that make cleric stance look like a jank molehill next to jank Everest fyi the belief repeatedly asserted by people in the thread that healers are either cleric stance dps superstars or honest healer bad players with zero in between is loving stupid as hell and makes you look like a sperglord.
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May 23, 2017 18:25
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Holyshoot posted:wheres my incentive to get good if im not punished for being bad. doing things faster and better is p. cool for its own sake
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May 23, 2017 18:26
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Velthice posted:well then by all means, you own personal experience gives you complete freedom to disregard everyone else's viewpoints entirely I'm just a bit confused at this assumption of "What you don't like this ability? Is it because you are bad?" And my answer is 'No it's because it's just kind of boring and yet mandatory to do any decent healer DPS what so ever. It's a lumped in requirement because Healers are one of the only specs in the game where their main stats don't also improve their damage, until now.' (And I speak with no experience of Tanks what so ever do you put points in Strength as any of those classes or is it all Vitality all the time) Is this not a good thing?
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May 23, 2017 18:30
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:I know what grit does. You also have enough cooldowns between 2 tanks that you'll basically never need it to eat damage in 8-man content. In 4-man content only the initial boss enmity growth and huge pulls need it, and even then I've healed DRKs that would drop it and we were fine. You ignored the entire point about being overgeared and having full knowledge, as well as the point about the fact that not needing it doesn't mean it isn't useful. Properly weaving grit in can reduce the strain on your healers which can be nice, especially in savage content where they are putting out multiple fires at once and having more time to response is useful. It's also important for the mid-tier of players that people keep ignoring exist who are comfortable enough in their role but make mistakes. This thread continues to defend to the idea that either your entire team plays perfectly every moment or you're a drinky bird mashing buttons and there's no in-between at all. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:38 on May 23, 2017 |
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May 23, 2017 18:33
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Oxyclean posted:Yeah, unless you *need* a physical copy, the barrier to early access seems basically non-existent. It's about three or four 51-60 a level, I personally prefer dungeons. I imagine fates will be active this time so I think dungeons and fates during queues is the best bet
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May 23, 2017 18:36
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I'm also low-key tempted to boost it to 60 for AF gear and to save myself the headache
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May 23, 2017 18:36
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As a mediocre healer who likes trying to contribute to DPS but also fumbles cleric stance presses and gets nervous someone is going to die the instant I swap into it I appreciate cleric stance going away. I wish it was gone already.
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May 23, 2017 18:37
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Everyone get behind me. *everyone eats a cleave they could have just avoided*
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May 23, 2017 18:37
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I was pretty set on running RDM for my dps needs but I still have a soft spot for black mage so I might just do both and decide after I've played them both a while.El Cid posted:As a mediocre healer who likes trying to contribute to DPS but also fumbles cleric stance presses and gets nervous someone is going to die the instant I swap into it I appreciate cleric stance going away. I wish it was gone already. 
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May 23, 2017 18:39
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Thumbtacks posted:I'm also low-key tempted to boost it to 60 for AF gear and to save myself the headache There's no paid boost for RDM or SAM.
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May 23, 2017 18:40
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TheNabster posted:I'm just a bit confused at this assumption of "What you don't like this ability? Is it because you are bad?" literally my only beef with your post was the statement that healers only do "a little bit more damage" in cleric. I'm completely indifferent to the removal of the stance other than I think it's a stealth nerf with the 10% damage boost going away, but I think every job is getting pretty much the same treatment so
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May 23, 2017 18:41
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There's also a difference between players who are honest healers due to laziness/stubbornness and those that are honest healers due to just being overall less skilled at no fault of their own. The former are a lost cause, but I don't think they're the majority as some people in this thread assert. The latter would see traditional cleric stance as punishment, not a gift. I was discussing the change with my wife, who plays super casually, and her response was "I never wanted to play a healer in the past because I didn't want to get yelled at for not DPS while healing but I was scared of screwing up cleric stance and killing the party." I would venture to guess that there are far more people like her than people who are lazy/stubborn honest healers. Cleric stance was a bad ability because it didn't let you be awesome, if just removed the barrier for you to be baseline. Cleric stance is bad for the same reason the accuracy stat is bad.
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May 23, 2017 18:41
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