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Shibawanko posted:I don't believe this is true by the way. It's never reached more than that level because the parties on offer are just not good enough. Almost nobody likes the PvdA, they always just got votes because SP was seen as too closed off and sectarian (and too oriented on Brabant while PvdA has always claimed the north), and the greens were seen as one issue and elitist. I don't think that there's an absolute limit on the amount of people you can convince to vote left, that limit is created by the incompetence of the parties and the lack of a convincing, charismatic leftist leader. No, the party of Drees and Den Uyl did not just get votes for want of any plausible alternative (mind you, for quite a while people wouldn't vote for the SP because they were literal Maoists, while GL was a coalition between communists, pacifists, greens and left-wing evangelical Christians, i.e. each of its components was quite far removed from the political center in its own way. In which case, there really was no alternative). Pretty much every democratic society is divided between left and right more or less following a normal distribution. You win then by grabbing as much of the center as you can while retaining your support on the fringe. So as a structural matter, the most successful political party on the centerleft is always going to look something like the PvdA. You could argue that the position of the median voter is now shifting, or that the PvdA position has shifted so it is no longer close to the median voter, or that the left/right axis is no longer enough to explain politics so that you need to add axes for liberalism versus authoritarianism or globalism versus nativism , but so long as you have a proportional representation electoral system, the action is always going to be in the center and that means compromise. It also means that anyone who wants to get anywhere in politics will want to join the center party, and will have to adopt a cautious, compromising political style, which means more likely than not that you're unlikely to get convincing and charismatic leaders, though it is not impossible.
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May 25, 2017 11:11
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The minutes of the last Eurogroup meeting leaked and the only reason there was no deal was, again, the Greek side - it also shows that Schäuble is the best and should be made Finance Minister of Europe. https://de.scribd.com/document/349399039/Minutes-of-Eurogroup-meeting-May-22-2017 best quote quote:Not acceptable that each compromise leads to another compromise. I have no mandate, if this is the way, then good luck. We will not find a solution
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May 25, 2017 12:56
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How can the side with no leverage whatsoever be at fault for the failed policies that the Eurogroup insists on keeping despite all indications that they do not work?
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May 25, 2017 14:45
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Fiction posted:How can the side with no leverage whatsoever be at fault for the failed policies that the Eurogroup insists on keeping despite all indications that they do not work? German ingenuity.
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May 25, 2017 14:48
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Fiction posted:How can the side with no leverage whatsoever be at fault for the failed policies that the Eurogroup insists on keeping despite all indications that they do not work? They refuse to accept the reality that they have no leverage, which prolongs the process unnecessarily.
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May 25, 2017 14:52
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They also have no future so there's that.
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May 25, 2017 14:57
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MiddleOne posted:They also have no future so there's that. Sure they have, once they stop being governed by anti-Semites.
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May 25, 2017 15:06
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GaussianCopula posted:Sure they have, once they stop being governed by anti-Semites. Says the German.
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May 25, 2017 15:09
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Says the German. Not electing anti-Semites has worked out well for Germany over the last ~70 years, it's when those people get in power that you get into big trouble.
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May 25, 2017 15:13
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Has Trump said anything nice and thoughtful about the Belgians in a Tweet today?
Dead Cosmonaut fucked around with this message at 15:20 on May 25, 2017 |
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May 25, 2017 15:13
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GaussianCopula posted:Sure they have, once they stop being governed by anti-Semites. Are you saying anti-occupation is anti-Semitism? If so I have some self-hating Jews you might want to meet. Anyway I'm not sure you want New Democracy to take over and accept the Eurogroup's deal, sweeping Tsipras right back into power...
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May 25, 2017 15:27
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GaussianCopula posted:They refuse to accept the reality that they have no leverage, which prolongs the process unnecessarily. Oh yeah, while Shitwolf & co. refuse to accept the reality of having completely and utterly hosed up.   It is literally impossible to do a more terrible job of managing a depression than the Eurogroup has managed in Greece. Schäuble is the biggest fuckup in the history of finance when we look at the results. lollontee fucked around with this message at 15:39 on May 25, 2017 |
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May 25, 2017 15:30
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GaussianCopula posted:The minutes of the last Eurogroup meeting leaked and the only reason there was no deal was, again, the Greek side No it's not you godamn liar, most players were declaring their openness to some type of debt relief, it's precisely Schauble who's the first to shutdown the discussion, saying that he can't agree to anything because he has no mandate, if so why the gently caress was he there?
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May 25, 2017 15:32
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Fiction posted:Are you saying anti-occupation is anti-Semitism? If so I have some self-hating Jews you might want to meet. No ANEL are pretty open anti-Semites (e.g. http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.639763) lollontee posted:Oh yeah, while Shitwolf & co. refuse to accept the reality of having completely and utterly hosed up. The Eurogroup (or Schäuble) don't have dictatorial power over the Greek government, whose obstruct and delay tactics have lead to the current situation. Just look at first half of 2015 and you will see what I mean. Fados posted:No it's not you godamn liar, most players were declaring their openness to some type of debt relief, it's precisely Schauble who's the first to shutdown the discussion, saying that he can't agree to anything because he has no mandate, if so why the gently caress was he there? Most players? Can you please quote one Finance Minister who supported the Greek position before Schäuble spoke, who is not from a country with severe deficit problems. GaussianCopula fucked around with this message at 15:35 on May 25, 2017 |
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May 25, 2017 15:32
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GaussianCopula posted:The Eurogroup (or Schäuble) don't have dictatorial power over the Greek government, whose obstruct and delay tactics have lead to the current situation. Just look at first half of 2015 and you will see what I mean. Yeah they do. The Eurogroup can and does literally threaten to shut down the Greek state on a regular basis if the Greek government doesn't submit to the absolute diktats of Shitwolf and co.
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May 25, 2017 15:41
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I didn't talk about Fin Min, because only the Greek and French spoke before shitwolf, but it's clear people there wanted a compromise, with all that talk about clarity and IMF needing to be on board, one the impediments being that these programmers only kick the can down the road and solve absolutely nothing, especially without debt relief. But it's clear from reading that Germany is the first to shut everything down.
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May 25, 2017 15:45
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Fados posted:I didn't talk about Fin Min, because only the Greek and French spoke before shitwolf, but it's clear people there wanted a compromise, with all that talk about clarity and IMF needing to be on board, one the impediments being that these programmers only kick the can down the road and solve absolutely nothing, especially without debt relief. It was never on the table because Schäuble legally wasn't even allowed to talk about specific debt relief. But I guess you people don't like democratic controls on the Eurogroup for some reason and would like them to make backroom deals against the will of elected representatives of the people.
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May 25, 2017 15:46
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GaussianCopula posted:It was never on the table because Schäuble legally wasn't even allowed to talk about specific debt relief. Why should Germany have any say over the financial policies of other nations? Seems pretty undemocratic to me.
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May 25, 2017 15:50
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This union is such a godamn farce, it really is hard to keep hope and not fall into euroscepticism when poo poo like this comes out.Fiction posted:Why should Germany have any say over the financial policies of other nations? Seems pretty undemocratic to me. They have the money. It's pure machiavellianism .
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May 25, 2017 15:53
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Fiction posted:Why should Germany have any say over the financial policies of other nations? Seems pretty undemocratic to me. Because it's Germany's money? If Greece could get money on the financial markets, they would not have to ask the Eurozone for help.
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May 25, 2017 15:56
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GaussianCopula posted:It was never on the table because Schäuble legally wasn't even allowed to talk about specific debt relief. Oh I see, so then you do admit that the financial regimes that the Eurogroup has imposed on Greece for the past 7+ years have had absolutely nothing to do with resolving the crisis, but instead about ensuring that Shitwolf & co retain their populistic democratic appeal to the electorate? If you keep telling your voters that the only people at fault in creating the Greek sovereign debt mountain are the Greeks themselves and neither you (Shitwolf) nor your colleagues carry any responsibility for the results, admitting a fuckup means that you democratically get booted out the door like the swabian housewife invoking moron you are.
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May 25, 2017 15:59
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Can anyone explain how Schauble came to be nicknamed Shitwolf itt? I mean, the Wolf" part I get, the "poo poo" part I get, but why affix them like this?
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May 25, 2017 16:05
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Can anyone explain how Schauble came to be nicknamed Shitwolf itt? I mean, the Wolf" part I get, the "poo poo" part I get, but why affix them like this? poo poo is just a good word to prepend to lovely and/or random things eg: shitbag, poo poo-gibbon, shithead, and now itt shitwolf, the shittiest of them all.
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May 25, 2017 16:10
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Can anyone explain how Schauble came to be nicknamed Shitwolf itt? I mean, the Wolf" part I get, the "poo poo" part I get, but why affix them like this? They're phonetically and memetically very similar words.
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May 25, 2017 16:14
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Fados posted:poo poo is just a good word to prepend to lovely and/or random things eg: shitbag, poo poo-gibbon, shithead, and now itt shitwolf, the shittiest of them all. you forgot shithawks
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May 25, 2017 16:17
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lollontee posted:They're phonetically and memetically very similar words. Can't argue with advanced memetics like that. Flowers For Algeria fucked around with this message at 16:26 on May 25, 2017 |
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May 25, 2017 16:23
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And dickwolf is already taken by Dick Wolf 
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May 25, 2017 16:26
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lollontee posted:Oh yeah, while Shitwolf & co. refuse to accept the reality of having completely and utterly hosed up. It is absolutely telling that your first graph cuts off in the year 2007, right before the Crisis, cause if you showed the years 1990-2007, it would show that during this time, Greece consumer spending shot up from 27 billion Euro per quarter to close to 45 billion Euro at the start of the crisis. This was growth that even guys like Yanis Varoufakis refers to as Ponzi growth, fuelled by running double digit deficits during years of strong economic growth (something that would make Keynes rotate in his grave). The ruling parties created cosy governement jobs for their cronies on lend money, this is a good part of the 25% of GDP loss that are always pulled out when mentioning the severity of the crisis. That increase in GDP should have never been there if Greece would have been run like a country with even a Keynsian economic policy. A better graph would be this, but of course it wouldn t support your argument quite that well, right? http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/consumer-spending (you have to set it to MAX to see the pre-2007 years).
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May 25, 2017 16:30
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lollontee posted:Oh I see, so then you do admit that the financial regimes that the Eurogroup has imposed on Greece for the past 7+ years have had absolutely nothing to do with resolving the crisis, but instead about ensuring that Shitwolf & co retain their populistic democratic appeal to the electorate? If the Greeks had not spend more money then they were allowed to under the Maastricht Treaty (3% deficit per year) they would not be in this situation today, so yes, they broke the treaty and bear full responsibility for everything that's happened to them. To be honest, they were really lucky that the contagion risk got the Europeans to help in the first place, otherwise they would have been really hosed.
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May 25, 2017 16:31
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Wow a German railing against other countries breaking the stability pact talk about calling the ketle black
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May 25, 2017 16:50
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What would it take to renegotiate Maastricht so it's not idiotic? Is it just impossible because the changes required would also probably mean the breakup of the EU?
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May 25, 2017 16:50
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If Centeno is the Ronaldo of the ecofin schaulbe is the freddy adu.
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May 25, 2017 16:51
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Fiction posted:What would it take to renegotiate Maastricht so it's not idiotic? Is it just impossible because the changes required would also probably mean the breakup of the EU? To save Maastricht we must kill Maastricht
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May 25, 2017 16:54
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ChainsawCharlie posted:If Centeno is the Ronaldo of the ecofin schaulbe is the freddy adu. more like the freddy krueger
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May 25, 2017 16:57
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https://twitter.com/PremierRP_en/status/867702542993678336 https://twitter.com/PremierRP_en/status/867700134842429440 well, this looks like evidence of a good and healthy dialogue
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May 25, 2017 17:04
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While I don't necessarily disagree with your point, that's a horrible graph.
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May 25, 2017 18:02
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LemonDrizzle posted:https://twitter.com/PremierRP_en/status/867702542993678336 Isn't this because the current Polish ruling party is
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May 25, 2017 18:07
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Someone tried to blow up papademos
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May 25, 2017 18:11
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Mierenneuker posted:Isn't this because the current Polish ruling party is And also raving nutters, yes.
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May 25, 2017 18:35
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Polish voters are even more xenophobic than the average european. the comments posted are about the EU plan to re-distribute refugees among the member states. Poland has fought having to receive ANY refugees at all. PIS has taken the general xenophobia, strengthened it and promulgated it, and fostered a very toxic public opinion among voters, to the ruling partys own advantage. Even the opposition has jumped on the anti-immigrant wagon. the interesting thing is that EU support is quite high, so it will be interesting what happens in the public opinion. Will the EUs plans be enough to turn poles against the commission?
catfry fucked around with this message at 13:21 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 25, 2017 19:29
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