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I thought the (currently disabled) processing ships were automated but the trawlers are still normal ships with normal crews?
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May 26, 2017 17:31
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sniper4625 posted:Relying on as yet unknown bonii to make up for an almost guaranteed operating loss does not seem prudent financial planning, nor does the corporate/japan enemies we'll likely be making seem great for future work down the line. We did our charitable stint, can't we just make a bit of money this time around? I think like one third of the Native lobby, which will win, want to have fun blowing stuff up, the same as voted for botes and missiles. The rest of the lobby seems to desperately want to be the faux good guys, ethnic cleansing and all, because Aboriginal populations have the underdog PR going for them irl. Fighting for Japan is actually the most moral option, despite the overfishing corporation, as it provides political stability. Aeroponics is already competetive in 2017, let alone in this advanced near future, even without fusion. Anyway Yooper is probably going to make even the US disintegrate completely into megacorps in a few years, unless we back them to the hilt, so it probably doesn't matter too much. RA Rx fucked around with this message at 21:14 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 17:32
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Galaga Galaxian posted:I thought the (currently disabled) processing ships were automated but the trawlers are still normal ships with normal crews? Even an automated ship still has crew on board for maintenance and repair work. The smaller trawlers are almost certainly small boats with regular crews.
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May 26, 2017 17:32
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David Corbett posted:How could you view it as anything else? I think the real answer is that they are not viewed as a secessionist movement because they have good lobbyists saying they aren't to the right people. The bottom line really is: quote:For them the end game is a Bering Straits that is native controlled. A lot of ways that could be taken, but I think secessionist is definitely one. That might ultimately be the perspective of the US Gov and others, but in the immediate term they are focused on removing a competing corporation (presumably Michigan-based) from their local market. It just so happens that corporations have a lot of what might normally be considered governmental powers where they operate, but that doesn't mean the Gov considers them such.
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May 26, 2017 17:39
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 if the USG is OK with a few private groups slugging it out up north while the legal wrangling went through and won't be prejudiced one way or the other, I'd be happy to change my vote to Native. I'd want those assholes gone, too, if they were making GBS threads up my home like that. Detonating an atomic bomb is really over the line. (AngerPEACE had it coming.)
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May 26, 2017 17:47
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Voting MitsuhashiYvonmukluk posted:Unmanned trawlers. And as others have pointed out, we're going to be sinking unarmed vessels, regardless of what flag we fly. Might as well do it for a company that are going to be feeling indebted to us for the help anyway. As opposed to Mitsushashi, who will basically see us as hired help at best. I don't think flying against Iceberg is going to actually piss off the US, since a lot of their grievance is because the US government hasn't helped them, I don't see that starting now. If we work for the Inuits and start fighting Iceberg, we'd be killing American citizens working for a large American corporation that employs thousands of Americans and buys millions in ships and weapons from US manufacturers. It's one thing if we're doing it on behalf of the Japanese. If anyone tries to go after us, we'd be able to make a strong case in US federal court and in international court that we were simply acting as legitimate agents of a legitimate entity with internationally-recognized rights to fish in these waters. If we do it on behalf of a bunch of rouge Inuit, our legal cover goes from solid to paper-thin Bacarruda fucked around with this message at 17:55 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 17:49
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so they can profit from what they see as their rightful waters, not to outright separate from the US itself.
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I admit I voted Native partly because they killed AngerPEACE and really, gently caress AngerPEACE.
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May 26, 2017 17:51
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David Corbett posted:
I think ideally they'd want Iceberg to win, but considering the Native Corporation is also based out of US soil (and let's be honest, if the US really wanted they could just mobilise the Alaska National Guard and kick them out of their bases - I must confess I'm curious how AngerPEACE were operating out of US soil on St. Lawrence Island), I think they'd at least accept them as a runner-up.
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May 26, 2017 17:54
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Vote Natives
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May 26, 2017 17:54
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Yvonmukluk posted:I think ideally they'd want Iceberg to win, but considering the Native Corporation is also based out of US soil (and let's be honest, if the US really wanted they could just mobilise the Alaska National Guard and kick them out of their bases - I must confess I'm curious how AngerPEACE were operating out of US soil on St. Lawrence Island), I think they'd at least accept them as a runner-up. Personally, I'd appreciate if Yooper went into a bit of details on the legality of things and what, exactly, each faction's end game and international relations are.
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May 26, 2017 17:57
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David Corbett posted:Personally, I'd appreciate if Yooper went into a bit of details on the legality of things and what, exactly, each faction's end game and international relations are. I suspect, ultimately this could be defined is Cod War IV, only instead of nationstates fighting over the fishing rights, the companies themselves have decided to cut out the middleman and start fighting directly, and the governments themselves are (thus far) not getting involved. Whether Russia gets involved - and whose side they'll be on - remains to be seen. In the age of corporate power, I have a feeling that legality will be defined by whoever comes out on top.
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May 26, 2017 18:10
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If Russia gets involved they're going to back the company working from their land, and that's Matsuhashi
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May 26, 2017 18:19
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Quinntan posted:If Russia gets involved they're going to back the company working from their land, and that's Matsuhashi Lol, as if they'd back Japanese before they stop throwing shitfits over Sachalin. People who are advocating for keeping stability are just advocating for Pax Fatcaticus. Social good rarely ever comes calmly and cleanly; usually, you need blue blood to feed the tree of liberty and human rights. I thing Nugent's blood will do. People who are advocating for Mitsuhashi say that any alternative sources of suplementary income are purely theoretical. They then reinforce their point with visions of ethnic cleansing and separatism - both of them are theoretical, but they help prove their point. Let us not listen to them. We are staring down two industrial giants, one representing the west, the other - the east. We have chances to hurt them both and prevent them from fishing the Bering dry. We also have chances to run against organizations that have no military experience and are unlikely to have high grade military gear. Our ease of procurement has made you weak and complacent; it's not that easy to get spankin', top of the line stuff, nor train people to staff them. And every moment of slack that Mitsu and Iceberg spends preparing to gently caress us allows us to gently caress them back. gently caress them back in ways that might not be reliant on the dwindling supply of super expensive munitions. That will force you to get creative. That will force you to remember that the one time our Gripen got shot down is that Pilot I Don't Remember His Name chose to fly basically at sea level and didn't have the energy and the space to maneuver. Each and every other time, we clowned both them and their silly missiles. Time to do some good, gentlemen. Time to sink robot boats.
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May 26, 2017 18:42
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I wouldn't be so sure about the Russians aligning with the Japanese company. That they let them set up shop does not mean that they like what's been happening on their land and in their water, and removing Mitsuhashi would solve the problem.
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May 26, 2017 18:49
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With my apologies to everyone involved. Ladies and gentlemen, we are now live at the Hayard-Gunnes Central Headquarters Voting... Centre. The world-renowned Private Military Contractor is now holding an open vote amongst its employees and shareholders as to who will get the option to become the group's next employer. As it stands, it is an extremely close vote between the Bering Strait Native Corporation and Mitsuhashi, two companies with large stakes at the Bering Sea conflict zone. Right now it appears that this vote may yet go anywhere, as many are yet to vote. But wait! Bac and Mobius are in a voting bloc! Oh no! What are they doing to the poor Tapco and Space Case?! They're doing their best to swing the vote for the Natives, but they are bote voters! They can't compete with the reputation of two greatest mission planners in the company! Wait, Thunderlips is here! Thunderlips is here! But he was dead! What is happening? Thunderlips is in the building! Go vote for the Good Native Guys, Thunder! But whose side is he on?! What are you talking about?! Get it, Thunder! Go vote for 'em, baby! WHO'S BAD NOW, BOYS?! Thunderlips arrives... Uh-uh-uh...! WHAT IS HE DOING?! IS HE THE THIRD MAN?! HE'S THE THIRD MAN! What the hell is going on here?! THUNDERLIPS HAS BETRAYED PHANTOM HATERS! HE'S VOTING MITSUHASHI WITH THOSE TWO MEN! A career of a life-time down the drain... We are not even going to acknowledge that vote! Psycho Ceramic: Thunderlips, excuse me! Excuse me. What in the world are you thinking? Thunderlips: Psycho Ceramic, the first thing you need to do is to tell these people to shut up if you wanna hear what I gotta say! *crowd jeers and throws invalid ballots at the voting booth* Ceramic: I have been with you for so many years, for you to join up with the likes of these two men absolutely makes me sick to my stomach! And I think that these people here *points to the crowd* and a lot of other people around the world have had just about enough of this man *pointing at Bac*, this man *pointing at Mobius*, and you want to put yourself in this group? You've gotta be kidding me. Thunderlips: Well, the first thing you gotta realize, brother, is this right here is the future of mercenary work! You can call this the New World Order of mercenary work, brother! These two men right here came from a great big scrap in Angola, and everybody was wonderin' - who the third man was? Well, who knows more about that scrap than me, brother? Ceramic: I've been there and I've done that. You have made the wrong decision -- in my opinion. Thunderlips: Well, let me tell ya somethin'! I MADE that theatre a monster! I made people rich up there - I made the people who ran that fight rich up there, brother! And when it all came to pass, the name Thunderlips - the man Thunderlips - got bigger than the whole Angolan theatre!* And then - Count Von Hoff, amigo, he wanted to talk turkey with Thunderlips. Well, Von Hoff promised me lithium, brother. Count Von Hoff promised me millions of dollars. And Count Von Hoff promised me world-caliber battles. And as far as Von Hoff goes, Mbeke, and the whole of Hayard-Gunnes goes, I'm bored, brother! That's why these two men - the so-called Phantom Lovers - these two men are who I want as my friends. And not only are we gonna take over the whole Bering Strait for Mitsu - we will destroy everything in our path, Psycho Ceramic! Ceramic (pointing at the debris around the booth): Look at all of this crap on this floor! This is what's in the future for you, if you wanna hang around the likes of this man Bac and this man Mobius. Thunderlips: As far as I'm concerned, all this crap in the booth represents these mercs out here! For two theatres, brother! For two theatres, I held my head high! I did everything for the Goons! I flew all the missions on the SK60! And the reception I got when I came out here, you voters can stick it, brother! Because, if it wasn't for Thunderlips, you people wouldn't be here! If it wasn't for Thunderlips, Von Hoff would be still handing out hot chocolate from a truck in a North Dakota homeless shelter! And, if it wasn't for Thunderlips, all these johnny-come-latelies that you see out here, H-G wouldn't be here! I was selling out the world, brother, while they were bumming avgas to put in their Fishbed to get to pilot school! So the way it is now, brother, with Thunderlips, and the new world organization of mercenary flying, brother, me and the new blood by my side... whatcha gonna do, brother, when the new world organization runs wild on you? *in surface covered by the giblets of his 60s-era plane after it was blown up with a missile to the engine
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May 26, 2017 19:21
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JcDent posted:Lol, as if they'd back Japanese before they stop throwing shitfits over Sachalin. And yet, in this scenario they are. JcDent posted:People who are advocating for keeping stability are just advocating for Pax Fatcaticus. Social good rarely ever comes calmly and cleanly; usually, you need blue blood to feed the tree of liberty and human rights. I thing Nugent's blood will do. BNSC is not looking for social good, they're looking for power. They're not von Hoff 2.0. JcDent posted:People who are advocating for Mitsuhashi say that any alternative sources of suplementary income are purely theoretical. They then reinforce their point with visions of ethnic cleansing and separatism - both of them are theoretical, but they help prove their point. Let us not listen to them. "These solid, strong reasons to not take the BNSC contract don't really have any counter. Let us not listen to them." JcDent posted:We are staring down two industrial giants, one representing the west, the other - the east. We have chances to hurt them both and prevent them from fishing the Bering dry. We also have chances to run against organizations that have no military experience and are unlikely to have high grade military gear. Our ease of procurement has made you weak and complacent; it's not that easy to get spankin', top of the line stuff, nor train people to staff them. And every moment of slack that Mitsu and Iceberg spends preparing to gently caress us allows us to gently caress them back. Our stuff is not top of the line, apart from the Gripens. The Phantoms are ancient, the Kfirs are ancient, the Tornadoes aren't much newer. What they have got is upgrades to keep them more or less competitive with peers, and even then, really? Mitsuhashi is a giant Japanese zaibatsu. Iceberg is also big conglometate and has billionaire Ted Nugent's funds to back them up too. We're going to see modern equipment being used to protect the fishing fleets or to strike at us. JcDent posted:gently caress them back in ways that might not be reliant on the dwindling supply of super expensive munitions. That will force you to get creative. The only real way to get past a CIWS except by overwhelming it with AShMs. If there's a ship with even short range SAMs like ESSMs or Sea Wolves on board, you need more AShMs. There is no amount of "getting creative" that will bypass this. JcDent posted:Time to do some good, gentlemen. Time to sink robot boats. Mitsuhashi are using regular old trawlers now, crewed by civvy fishermen. They're not "robot boats". Besides, I don't think giving an ethnic minority in Alaska power over the region is a smart thing to do. They'll likely do really lovely things to the majority population to try to retain that power. We're not doing any good if we work for BNSC. We're creating another Rhodesia.
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May 26, 2017 19:25
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The majority population in this part of Alaska is the natives.
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May 26, 2017 19:35
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My greatest hope is that we wipe the floor with the opposition and get Native control of more than they ever expected, only at the end to see as they finally take off their heavy fur coats it's all the Reddit guys from Angola, and one of them takes a giant vape puff and pulls out his 23&me report and says, "Well, actually, yes, I am 2% Aleutian."
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May 26, 2017 19:40
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Natives, because I trust Yooper to write a competent narrative around it, and I like the possibility of pissing off a corporation or two 
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May 26, 2017 19:54
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drat you, Hollywood Thunderlips! I trusted you! Tapco trusted you! America trusted you! And this is how you repay us 
Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 20:03 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 19:59
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I am not sure how in bed with Russia Mitsuhashi really are. They're using Russian air fields but I don't think we can necessarily assume they have Russian military backing. In a nightmare world of militarized mega-corps the distinction of what is endorsed/supported by governments and what is allowed seems very blurry. Also, when we are weighing the calculus of destructo-bux, keep in mind that the Japanese will force us to run our missions more tightly and we can probably count on more limited opportunity to do gratuitous damage. "To them we are but servants, to be told what to do, and paid accordingly." No idea if that will balance out at all against the NativeCorp malus, but it will almost surely be a factor in reducing vs what we've seen in the past.
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May 26, 2017 20:05
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glynnenstein posted:I am not sure how in bed with Russia Mitsuhashi really are. They're using Russian air fields but I don't think we can necessarily assume they have Russian military backing. In a nightmare world of militarized mega-corps the distinction of what is endorsed/supported by governments and what is allowed seems very blurry. I would assume that they're paying some pretty hefty fees for use of those fields and ports, and the Russians would likely want that to continue. That may be so, but that cuts both ways. If we've a limited number of targets, that also means we've a limited number of munitions that we have to use to destroy those targets. That, coupled with the fact that their pay is double the native pay, will still see us running profits on operations.
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May 26, 2017 20:13
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Tevery Best posted:With my apologies to everyone involved. We have seen the end of Thundermania tonight. You can go straight to hell!
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May 26, 2017 20:14
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Just a reminder to those saying the natives committing massacres are merely theoretical. They've already left one mass grave in their wake when they "slaughtered every single person at the AngerPEACE base". (Yooper's words, not mine). I'm sure each and every one of those corpses was an armed militia combatant.
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May 26, 2017 20:15
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David Corbett posted:Personally, I'd appreciate if Yooper went into a bit of details on the legality of things and what, exactly, each faction's end game and international relations are. Mitsuhashi, Internationally and in the eyes of the UN, is the rightful holder to fishing rights in the Bering Sea. The US Government no longer endorses every decision unless it's in the best interests of the US (corporation). In this case they prefer to get into another fight and are not standing behind Iceberg, but won't stop them. Congress has passed a resolution giving Iceberg rights, but seeing as it's international waters it doesn't give Iceberg poo poo. Once upon a time the US Navy could enforce an enormous offshore fishing area. Not any more. For Iceberg it's still about reducing Mitsuhashi's profitability so they can drive them out. For Mitsuhashi they can, and will, do everything to hold the straits, but not hit US soil. Iceberg on the other hand is already illegal so a few stray bombs on a cannery is OK. But they don't want to piss off the Russians. The Natives are one of the main reason the US isn't picking sides. Bering Straits Native Corp is one of the largest private deporters of illegal immigrants on the Southern Border. They also provide hundreds of millions every year in governmental services. At this moment they aren't even sure their end game, other than it involves no more nuclear weapons going off or the raping of seas. At least unless they're the ones doing it. In a nutshell : Mitsuhashi will defend her legal rights. Iceberg will strike Mitsuhashi but not the Russians. BSNC will shoot either of the two anywhere. But to do any real damage either Mitsuhashi is going to have to kill Iceberg in Alaska (Oh the deniability a merc might offer...) or Iceberg has to crack Mitsuhashi's radars and SAM's and knock out enough assets so they cry uncle. BSNC has to do it all.
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May 26, 2017 20:15
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I've already mentioned it before, but it bears repeating: there is a very good chance that Mitsubishi (who, need I remind you, definitely have a dog in this fight - albeit indirectly - due to shares in Mitsuhashi) will use their leverage to kick us in the balls if we go for someone other than Mitsuhashi. How? I can easily envision a scenario, for example, where we'll need to do something directly counter to the interests of our employers if we don't want Mitsubishi telling all and sundry the truth behind the trawler. And that isn't something we can easily shrug off, unless we suddenly want to render all of that agonising and planning to avoid the reputation hit completely irrelevant. Meanwhile, if we were working for Mitsuhashi, any favours we might do for Mitsubishi would likely align with our employers' interests and therefore avoid a lose-lose situation.
Soup Inspector fucked around with this message at 20:18 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 20:15
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Yooper: If we can knock out Iceberg, either through overwhelming losses or annihilation, could BSNC and Mitsuihashi come to a financial deal? Mitsuhashi can still fish, to a limit, but profits are shared, and BSNC assists in some way (probably by dealing with the US government and other corporations)? Then BSNC isn't running the risk of the Russians getting sick and tired of all of this and throwing their weight behind the Japanese, and profits don't take too big a hit for the Japanese; it also allows BSNC to pull back to the mainland while saving face. The added benefit of course is wiping out a goodly chunk of the North American militia movement that made it up to the wastes of NW Alaska. And we get to bomb Alaska (which can go gently caress itself).
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May 26, 2017 20:24
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Just a reminder to those saying the natives committing massacres are merely theoretical. They've already left one mass grave in their wake when they "slaughtered every single person at the AngerPEACE base". (Yooper's words, not mine). I'm sure each and every one of those corpses was an armed militia combatant. They corked off a loving nuke.
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May 26, 2017 20:24
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Yooper posted:Mitsuhashi, Internationally and in the eyes of the UN, is the rightful holder to fishing rights in the Bering Sea. The US Government no longer endorses every decision unless it's in the best interests of the US (corporation). In this case they prefer to get into another fight and are not standing behind Iceberg, but won't stop them. Congress has passed a resolution giving Iceberg rights, but seeing as it's international waters it doesn't give Iceberg poo poo. Once upon a time the US Navy could enforce an enormous offshore fishing area. Not any more. For Iceberg it's still about reducing Mitsuhashi's profitability so they can drive them out. For Mitsuhashi they can, and will, do everything to hold the straits, but not hit US soil. Iceberg on the other hand is already illegal so a few stray bombs on a cannery is OK. But they don't want to piss off the Russians. Alright my pragmatism has been won over. We are mercenaries and I just can't bring myself to vote for a contract that pays the least and requires a two front fight. I'm changing my vote to Mitsuhashi.
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May 26, 2017 20:25
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That was amazing Tevery 
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May 26, 2017 20:26
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Yooper posted:Mitsuhashi, Internationally and in the eyes of the UN, is the rightful holder to fishing rights in the Bering Sea. The US Government no longer endorses every decision unless it's in the best interests of the US (corporation). In this case they prefer to get into another fight and are not standing behind Iceberg, but won't stop them. Congress has passed a resolution giving Iceberg rights, but seeing as it's international waters it doesn't give Iceberg poo poo. Once upon a time the US Navy could enforce an enormous offshore fishing area. Not any more. For Iceberg it's still about reducing Mitsuhashi's profitability so they can drive them out. For Mitsuhashi they can, and will, do everything to hold the straits, but not hit US soil. Iceberg on the other hand is already illegal so a few stray bombs on a cannery is OK. But they don't want to piss off the Russians. Thanks, Yooper. That clears things up a bit.
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May 26, 2017 20:28
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xthetenth posted:They corked off a loving nuke. And the rest of the world would've dealt with them. And wouldn't have slaughtered them. And if you want theoreticals, Yooper just implied they might be willing to use a nuke themselves. Hell maybe AngerPEACE had more than one...
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May 26, 2017 20:31
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Just a reminder to those saying the natives committing massacres are merely theoretical. They've already left one mass grave in their wake when they "slaughtered every single person at the AngerPEACE base". (Yooper's words, not mine). I'm sure each and every one of those corpses was an armed militia combatant. Given that these were the people devoted enough to the cause to be camping out in the middle of the Bering Strait during winter... yeah, actually, they probably were.
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May 26, 2017 20:45
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Coffeehitler posted:Yooper: If we can knock out Iceberg, either through overwhelming losses or annihilation, could BSNC and Mitsuihashi come to a financial deal? Mitsuhashi can still fish, to a limit, but profits are shared, and BSNC assists in some way (probably by dealing with the US government and other corporations)? Then BSNC isn't running the risk of the Russians getting sick and tired of all of this and throwing their weight behind the Japanese, and profits don't take too big a hit for the Japanese; it also allows BSNC to pull back to the mainland while saving face. A deal is possible, but as long as Mitsuhashi feels they have an upperhand in the matter (profit wise) they'll fight.
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May 26, 2017 20:51
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The Sandman posted:Given that these were the people devoted enough to the cause to be camping out in the middle of the Bering Strait during winter... yeah, actually, they probably were. A sophisticated operation like they pulled off requires plenty of non-combatants, no matter how fanatic. Come on now. Are all the people we're going to encounter while fighting for the natives in the rear end-end of nowhere going to be 'deeply committed to [insert cause]'? Sounds like an excuse for mass murder. RA Rx fucked around with this message at 21:06 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 20:54
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RA Rx posted:A sophisticated operation like they pulled off requires plenty of non-combatants, no matter how fanatic. Come on now. Are all the people we're going to encounter while fighting for the natives in the rear end-end of nowhere going to be 'deeply committed to [insert cause]'? Look do you want to use these clusterbombs or not
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May 26, 2017 20:59
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Whoever was on that island, they probably didn't ALL deserve it. Beyond that though, a bit of speculation. I can almost guarantee that we haven't seen the last of AngerPEACE. The Organization Formerly Known As AngerPEACE has been thoroughly butchered, yeah, but their ~~mysterious billionaire donor(s)~~ are nowhere to be seen, and there was probably a cadre of higher-ups who weren't in-theater and escaped the massacre. And that's not even touching how they somehow managed to finagle their way into becoming a nuclear power. There's something more there, and even if the name AngerPEACE never shows up again some of its people and ideals will.
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May 26, 2017 20:59
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If the Angola shipping attack info got out would it be better to spin it or deny it?
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May 26, 2017 21:00
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Loel posted:Look do you want to use these clusterbombs or not Clusterbombs and mines are cool, just not sure BSNC are going to use them on like workhouses or what. But mainly I'm just arguing for Mitsu, since the majority somehow seem to care a lot about being good guys. RA Rx fucked around with this message at 21:09 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 21:01
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I'd say deny it unless they've somehow got a video of us taking a large sack labeled $$$ while explicitly saying "Yes hello Mr. Bulgarian Mobster we will fraud the bote for you". As far as we can tell, all the hard evidence they have is that our Saab was emitting for a little bit right around the time when the bote blew up. It looks suspicious, to be sure, but the immediately obvious response is that they had their AWACS bird up in sneaky mode at the same time so what they hell were THEY doing, hmmm? It's hardly outside the realm of possibility that we were just popping up for a midnight peek at Dos Santos/the Free State and the timing was unfortunate. Everything else is circumstantial, and any even halfway decent PR team will be able to go on CNN and muddy the waters enough that the worst-case damage is a reputation for being a bit shady looking that one time. A good plan would be to do the legwork now and have Jack/our PR guys get out ahead of it and have a counter-scandal or something ready. Pay some random peasant in former FS territory to say he heard jets heading towards the ocean an hour or two before the bote was destroyed and get it to air BEFORE SMARF gets their dirt up, or at least at roughly the same time. Again, it can even be a blatant lie or unsubstantiated hearsay, just as long as it muddies the waters enough during the critical first news cycle. Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 21:09 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 21:05
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