|
So I can't speak to Birthright because I legitimately don't care as much, but I've been kicking around a few ideas for Conquest to make it less completely rear end. I have a feeling it does actually involve changing the characters somewhat, but the characters are legitimately part of the problem, because as written everyone is a moron, The big problems with Conquest are -we don't care about Garon. He's presented as nothing but an evil bad guy undeserving of loyalty with no real goals besides "be a bad guy". He surrounds himself with sycophants and murderers and tries to kill the Avatar. He doesn't even value his own children, but he's not scary enough to worry about when he's not there. -Corrine is not nearly pragmatic.intelligent, or ruthless enough to survive in an evil empire. Really, everything else is secondary to that. I've got two options - either the narrative changes to show Garon as a once-good man corrupted by absolute evil, or Corrine is more practical and ruthless as befitting someone raised in an evil empire. Option 1 We overhaul the intro with the purpose of making Nohr seem more attractive. Instead of opening with the dream "choose your side" we open with the negotiations between Sumeragi and Garon from the flashback. Instead of Garon having planned it as a trap for Sumeragi, something goes wrong in the negotiations*, Sumeragi makes the first move to try to kill Garon and Garon is forced to kill him in self-defense. Sumeragi brought his infant child along, so now Garon has to decide what to do with him. Iago suggests murder, but Garon can't bring himself to do that and fires Iago for being a morally bankrupt piece of poo poo. Flash forward 15 years or so, where young Corrine is learning to fight with Garon as they go save some Nohrian villages from bandits/Faceless or whatever. Garon takes the opportunity to explain to Corrine that kingship isn't about being the boss and getting what you want, but helping your people thrive and flourish and that's why we're going on the front lines to protect these villages. Insert some scenes of Garon teaching Corrin valuable life lessons and how to be a good person. Hans is the leader of the bandits, but he escapes somehow. Flash forward 5 years, Corrine has been away from court serving as an ambassador to the Ice Tribe (and getting to know Felicia and Flora) and returns to find Iago and Hans hanging out at court, Garon is planning a massive war against Hoshido, and the Nohr royal kids are worried as hell about their father but are too scared to say anything after he beat a servant to death. Corrine protests (while the Nohr kids warn her not to do it) and is sent with Ganglari to deliver a list of demands and (unknowingly) take out the Hoshidan royals in the process. The initial Hoshido sequence is changed. We keep the mind-control barrier that's keeping Nohr out, and we expand that into more vaguely implied dystopian efforts. We balance the Hoshidan royals defending against Nohrian incursion with Corrine explaining how Nohr is covered in eternal darkness (a curse from a pissed-off Hoshido royal way back in the day) and having trouble finding food. Keep the Hoshidan royal family mostly the same , including the crap they've taken from Nohr and the historical feuds (along with the murder of the previous king). Keep the cursed sword assassination attempt with Mikoto's sacrifice. Maybe make it a straight up bomb instead, I don't know. Point being, Garon has now crossed a line and tried to kill Corrine - something he would have found inconceivable - so Corrine goes back to Nohr to demand an explanation. Garon does his divination thing, Corrine is spared (though the Nohr kids flip the hell out at how brazen she's being) while Corrine point-blank asks what the hell happened to the kind man who raised her. This results in Corrine being loosed against the Ice Tribe (her friends, remember) as a loyalty test, and most of the game continues with the invading Hoshido/putting down rebellions as the Nohr kids try to find some way of breaking the curse on Garon. This leads them first to meeting Azura, then to the Rainbow Sage (who tells them about the throne of Hoshido), and then to the opera house where Corrine and the kids are in on the plan to uncurse Garon which doesn't work and is ruined by the arrival of Hoshidan assassins. This also can lead to a dynamic where Azura post-opera advocates for Garon's death but Corrine and the kids are reluctant to kill their father who used to be such a good man. *The weird ghost guys attack? I don't want to say too much for fear of spoilers Option 2 Garon is an irredeemable rear end in a top hat as presented in game, but Corrine is a lot smarter and more ruthless having grown up in the Nohrian court instead of in a podunk castle in the middle of nowhere with only a bunch of maids for company. Corrine knows exactly what a monster Garon is and reacts accordingly - no confronting him in public like an idiot, outward obedience to orders, etc - until she goes to Hoshido and realizes that you can have a family that's not screwed up and abusive. However, she can't bring herself to abandon the Nohr royals to Garon's bullshit so says goodbye to her Hoshidan family and goes home to overthrow Garon. The Ice Tribe and Cheve rebellions are quashed not through firepower but by telling them post-battle "look we're not actually here to stop you rebellion, just wait until we can put a plan together and get more dudes". Hans is sent to execute Scarlet but is killed by "rebels" (aka a pissed off Corrine), Iago is similarly isolated and murdered when he tries to pull off his teamkilling bullshit, the daimyo of Mokushin ends up fighting you because you try to promise him more than Garon and his bullshit detector goes off. This results in you guys making contact with Hoshidan intelligence (aka Kagero, Saizo, and Kaze) and coming to some agreement where you do as little as possible in the war against Hoshido to start the rebellion against Garon at home. drat, I just wasted a bunch of time creating Fire Emblem fanfic, didn't I?
|
#
?
May 27, 2017 21:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 13:05 |
|
|
TheGreatEvilKing posted:drat, I just wasted a bunch of time creating Fire Emblem fanfic, didn't I? Yes, but even then, the time you spent writing it up and the time I spent reading it probably amounts to more man hours than were put into making sure the actual game's script adhered to any kind of logical sense.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2017 21:37
|
|
|
TheGreatEvilKing posted:drat, I just wasted a bunch of time creating Fire Emblem fanfic, didn't I? And yet, still better than what we got.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2017 21:37
|
|
|
TheGreatEvilKing posted:drat, I just wasted a bunch of time creating Fire Emblem fanfic, didn't I? It's good that the game is good enough for you to get annoyed enough to put in a bunch of effort to 'fix' it. It's one of the ways that future developers and writers and such learn by seeing mistakes and thinking up ways of doing it differently. I mean, heck I got a kick out of Quovak doing it for Golden Sun, I saw enough promise in Other M's gameplay and setup to have a notepad of what I'd do to make it decent and you've done it for Conquest here. It's neato.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2017 22:17
|
|
|
I love how Garon and Iago's plan throughout Conquest amounts to "We will make Corrin SUFFER, and as a result...uh, um...muahaha!" It's a touch absurd.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2017 22:23
|
|
|
TheGreatEvilKing posted:drat, I just wasted a bunch of time creating Fire Emblem fanfic, didn't I?
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2017 23:20
|
|
|
AradoBalanga posted:Yes. However, like others who have discussed the many issues with this game's plot, the fact that you were able to come up with stuff like this so quickly shows just how little care there was on the actual game staff. If your audience can come up with better ideas than the people you pay to do the same amount of work, then perhaps the problem lies with the people you hired. No one actually put in the passion or the emotional investment in writing the game's plot, which is frustrating because both the animation and music departments clearly DID put in the effort, so again, the problem lies at the feet of the writers and their editors. Their writing goes all over the place, to the hilariously stupid (see previous cutscene), to the painfully mediocre, and to the "No really, this is not funny. Why the gently caress do you think this is funny?" (this one is mostly in the supports). When something good actually does pop up, it is such a fleeting moment of relief that it makes everything else stand out even more. What's worse is that editors looked at this incoherent mess of a plot and gave their stamp of approval without objection, and that is what amazes me the most. So yeah, you coming up with your own ways to improve or take advantage of the setting is not a bad thing, especially when talking about a game where the actual staff went for the bare minimum and called it a day. The supports are oddly easier to explain. They're outsourced. The main game, though, that's the interesting failure, since it comes between Awakening and Echoes, and you know what? Those are competent! Awakening's main story has characters with arcs, scenes with emotional weight, and a lot of good dialog. Sure it's got issues, but it's fun enough. You like Chrom's band of lovable goobers, and give a poo poo when things go bad. Echoes gives time to show its villains have motivations, gives the cast likable banter, and fleshes out (to a greater or lesser extent) pretty much all the characters despite being based on an old famicom game. Neither game's Nier: Automata or anything, but two of the last three basically work, and Fates just... doesn't. A lot of the same names in the credits, but the gulf's notable.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 01:18
|
|
|
Trying to have two and then three routes that you can take definitely didn't help the writing but it's certainly not the only problem either.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 01:21
|
|
|
I don't know if it's tragically depressing or oddly uplifting that human beings were paid actual money to write this script.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 01:23
|
|
|
Three basic changes that would make everything better. 1. Less comically evil Nohr. Make it so that Hans is less of a psychotic bastard and instead make him a man who knows he on occasion commits horrific acts, but only because he has faith in his king and what he is trying to do. Iago needs a similar change and make his actions more driven by something like having issues with trust then because he has hard on for being a bastard. Garon is a king who through ruling a kingdom best with hardships has slowly started to lose his ability to act with compassion and so is basically fygm to everybody not in his kingdom. For Nohr itself just emphasis the issue with being in a place that is only a couple steps up from being a horrific wasteland. 2. More complex Hoshido. Make it so that they have their own issues when they do hosed up things. For example that whole mind barrier your mom had could be seen as a horrific tool of impression. In general make it a kingdom that is quite content with the status quo as they have all the good things whilst Nohr has jack poo poo. 3. Make the party actually competent. One of my favorite parts of Awakening was the trick with the gems they pulled off with Basilio as it proved that the party was actually competent and could actually succeed. So give scenes like that when Corrin/Corrine actually come up with a plan that works that does not resolve on dumb bullshit.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 01:31
|
|
|
The way I see it, Fates is about 1.8 games' worth of stories stretched over three. Birthright can almost stand on its own, Conquest is filled with gaping holes plastered over with [BUY THE DLC], and Revelations exists seemingly because they cut big chunks out of Conquest and smaller ones from Birthright in order to have a third 'better' ending. The need for three fairly tonally different stories to have the same starting point ends up flattening Corrin's personality and producing extremely inconsistent characterisation from the Nohrians, particularly Camilla and Xander.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 01:47
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 02:55
|
|
|
For step 4, you don't want slimes in this game?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 03:02
|
|
|
Bruceski posted:For step 4, you don't want slimes in this game? Look, some poo poo went down in Arcanretia, and we all respond to it in different ways. (I keep saying it because it keeps being true. Fates would be infinitely better if Kamui and Aqua were replaced with Kazuma and Aqua. All the routes would be a mixture of heavy drinking, failure and rainbow colored vomit.)
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 03:11
|
|
|
lmao
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 14:24
|
|
|
The thing, normally I would say that having both our sides being more morally complex is certain a good thing, but it's a bit much to ask for in jrpg stories. Even the Fire Emblem games lauded as "complex" are pretty black and white, really. Problem is that the very premise of this game requires at least a modicum of moral complexity for it to make any sense whatsoever. I wonder if you could still get a decent plot by keeping Nohr as obviously cartoonishly evil.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 17:21
|
|
|
Is it okay if we talk about the support conversations between the Nohr siblings?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 17:32
|
|
|
Maybe if Conquest Corrin was also actually evil, like just plain up embrace that you are the villain and go with it.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 17:32
|
|
|
Charlotte finally bagged her dreams ------------------- C Support  Lord Leo! Hello! Hello, Charlotte. Do you need something from me? Not from you, milord! Actually, I made a lunch for you. Would you like to try it? I'm sorry, but I ate just a little while ago. You did? Oh, that's a shame... Ah, I know! Would you be interested in a some tea, then? I make a delicious cup! I'm not all that thirsty right now, thanks. Really? Well, I guess that's OK... ... Am I bothering you, milord? You are, in fact. I'm trying to think on a few things, so it would be helpful if you let me be. Understood... If you need anything—anything at all— let me know if I can help. I'm always happy to help you! Right. Thank you.B Support Oh, Lord Leeeeeeeoooo! What are you up to at the moment? I'm reviewing the strengths and weaknesses of our army. It's best to have effective strategies before entering the battlefield. Teehee, that sounds right up your alley! I learned something interesting as I was reading these reports... You're an incredibly strong woman, aren't you? What?! M-milord, that question seems rather...um...personal? I'm correct though, yes? These reports all say the same thing. It must be a coincidence... I mean...you know me. I'm the kind of girl who likes someone strong to protect her. Everyone is always rushing to my aid on the battlefield. Just going off these reports, you should be able to look after yourself... Could all of these really be wrong? They must be, milord. I'm so very scared of danger on the battlefield... If that's true, then all of these reports need to be adjusted... Geez, why can't you just accept it and move on to something else?! What the?! Listen, I actually am really strong, OK?  I don't want the men in camp to catch on, ya hear? They'd avoid me if they knew. No one will be nice to me or offer to care for me if they think I can handle myself. That...makes a lot of this make more sense. What? No, I mean... Um... That was a little performance, just now. All an act! Convincing, huh? It's not ready yet, though, so...um... don't tell anyone about it, OK? I want it to be a surprise... Or something. ... I'm sorry. I'll excuse myself now. Teehee! *runs away* ...So that's the real Charlotte.A Support Charlotte, there is no need for you to conceal how strong you really are. Pardon me, milord? I don't know what you're talking about... I want you to make use of all your strength. I don't have need for soldiers that aren't doing everything they can. B-but I... Are you really that afraid that the other men will flee from you? ...Yes. I am. Hmm. Sadly, I can't say that's unfounded. There are still plenty of men with worthless illusions about how women should be. Trust me, I know. But can we agree that there are also men who don't hold that opinion? ... I promise to judge you fairly, Charlotte. What do you mean? You have the drive to go far in our ranks, and you're clearly a capable actor. I can't ignore talent like yours. Lord Leo... So from now on, use your strength to the benefit of myself and this army. Hide nothing from me. Heehee, understood. I will do everything I can to aid you, milord. But...around the others in the army... I will continue to act as I always have. I still believe it will be easier. It is a start, at least.S Support Charlotte. Lord Leo? Did you need something of me? If this seems very sudden, please try to control your surprise. Actually, could I ask you something first? Very well... I've been stressing about this for some time, but I wanted to ask you... Do you think we have a future together? I know it's sudden! And random! But I had to ask you or I'd go insane! ... Charlotte, that's exactly why I came to see you today. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?! Hah, I still surprised you after all. I'm serious, though. Both your act and the strength you hide behind it have won me over.  I had to say something. I had to say that I love you. You... Lord Leo... You love me back? Yes, I believe there is a future for us. More than that, I think we should wed. I...always dreamed of marrying into wealth. Really? Well... You truly are bluntly honest, aren't you? I would never want to lie to you. Marrying someone with money would mean being able to provide for my family. I could ease their lives so much. That's why I've always dreamed of riches. ... Then I met you, Lord Leo, and I fell in love with you. I'm truly happy that we both feel so strongly for each other! But...I cannot accept your proposal. What?! I don't understand. It just dawned on me that I'm not sure if my feelings for you are pure... or if they're only present because I could live my riches-filled dreams with you. You think you only love me for my money? And out of concern for me, you don't want to accidentally hurt me if that's true? ...Well, yes. I'm so sorry. I'm really the worst. That you feel that way is proof enough for me that your love is real. Huh? It is? It doesn't matter to me if that's how you originally came to like me. What's important is that you genuinely care for me now. That makes a lot of sense! I am in love with you, Lord Leo... I'm so happy! As am I, Charlotte. As am I.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 18:13
|
|
|
"I'm in love with you" "Yeah, me too"
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 18:30
|
|
|
That was surprisingly sweet, considering. Charlotte dropping the act is always good. I'm worried about their kids stats though
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 18:31
|
|
|
Camel Pimp posted:The thing, normally I would say that having both our sides being more morally complex is certain a good thing, but it's a bit much to ask for in jrpg stories
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 18:33
|
|
|
I always paired Charlotte with Xander. Charlotte is a really bad parent for Leo's kid, I think.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 18:40
|
|
|
PlasticAutomaton posted:I always paired Charlotte with Xander. Charlotte is a really bad parent for Leo's kid, I think. Effie might be worse, but even then it is a toss up. This does make things more interesting though.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 18:44
|
|
|
Endorph posted:not really. there are plenty of jrpgs with moral complexity on both sides. it doesn't have to be both sides being super complicated and nuanced, just moments of humanity. travant managed to come across like a reasonable person after literally murdering a woman and stealing her baby because of like seven lines, max. he isn't pure or tragic or even all the sympathetic, but he's a reasonable human being who does things for a reason. it isn't that hard to do and plenty of games have done it. Ogre Battle anyone?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 19:08
|
|
|
You wasted Charlotte on Leo. Leo is the worst dad in the game. I'm Livid.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 19:36
|
|
|
There is literally no one else available because you guys killed Beruka.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 19:39
|
|
|
PlasticAutomaton posted:I always paired Charlotte with Xander. Charlotte is a really bad parent for Leo's kid, I think. Krumbsthumbs posted:Effie might be worse, but even then it is a toss up. This does make things more interesting though.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 19:57
|
|
|
Too bad we cant pair up Effie and Charlotte.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 21:49
|
|
|
  I am very excited for this paralogue, because I will get another healer after like 20+ missions.    It’s weird to think that I have a nephew. And that he’s all grown up!  I haven’t seen Forrest since he was barely out of his crib. What’s he like now? He’s a troubadour, right? Think he wants to join us? The more the merrier!I know that you have to treat these events as isolated from the rest but man, you could've not written it specifically as if Elise could never have a kid. No. And, er, let’s cancel this trip. We can go to this Deeprealm some other day. What? Cancel the trip? But I’ve looked forward to seeing Forrest. And you haven’t visited him in forever. Don’t you miss your son? ...  They also say that a beautiful woman was caught in all the fracas. But she’s apparently a troubadour and is doing her best to treat the wounded. No, this can’t be... Uh-oh, what now? You’re as pale as a ghost. We need to get there, before...before... Let’s just get there...fast!  One of the few times we have a portrait but the name hidden.  I’d better keep looking for more wounded. Those brigands—mindless beasts! Ah! That must be the troubadour we heard about.  She’s as beautiful as they say. Don’t you agree, Leo? ... Big Brother? What’s wrong? Wait, why reveal the name now? That was weird. ... Hm? What do you mean...Father? You mistake us for someone else. I mean, unless—HA! Unless my brother here has been hiding a second child!No, no. Only Azura and Corrine can do that, silly. Don't be crass, Elise. Father? What does she mean? Has the cat got your tongue? Hmm. I'll introduce myself then.  See, it would make more sense to reveal the name here. What?! You're Leo's son? Of course. The one and only. Oh, wow! You're...you're...  And your sense of style is...is... It's exquisite! Why, thank you. You... What are YOU doing outside of the Deeprealms?I'm going to ask for the millionth time: What is the point of the deeprealms if anyone can just leave at their whim. Also, what is the plan of the deeprealms? To have them live a long, old live by themselves? Because 90% of the parents never plan for them to leave it.  My village has an abominable selection. One cannot make fashion from burlap. But soon as I arrived, brigands came crawling out of the woodwork. Fortunately for the villagers here, I came just in time to heal their wounded. You’re a disgrace. Oh? Excuse me? Since when is saving lives considered a disgrace? You know what I mean, Forrest. You! The way you dress. I’ve told you before... Leo! What’s wrong with you?! Embrace our lovely Forrest! No—and hold your tongue, Elise. This isn’t your business. I’m sorry... Sorry that I ever left my Deeprealm! I’ll go back where I’m appreciated. *runs away* Well then, godspeed. But...hold on, Forrest! Watch where you’re—! You’re running straight for—!  It's never so simple as to just recruit them   Well hello, young miss! What’s a lady like you doing in this pigsty? Heh. How about I be a gentleman and put you somewhere nice and safe. Wouldn’t want a pretty thing like you to get hurt. This is hilarious because Forrest is clearly voiced by a guy, but I guess they assume he's a smoker.    I have to work SO hard for a second healer.  ... Leo! Stop being a jerk and help me save your son! ... All right! Then I guess it’s up to the rest of us to rescue my nephew! *Elise runs towards the bandits*  Leo, you're kinda not making a good first impression   This is a timed mission, as one enemy will slowly move towards Forrest and kill him. Stats here: https://lpix.org/sslptest/index.php?id=147681 Bench 3: http://www.strawpoll.me/13062053
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 21:53
|
|
|
Forrest in Japanese has a much more feminine voice, natch. Though he's still voiced by a guy.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 22:08
|
|
|
And our newest member of the "lovely Parents Club" is none other than Leo. Good job, ya dingus. On the other hand, the boss of this map is quite the interesting unit, as we'll soon see.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 22:18
|
|
|
oh.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 22:18
|
|
|
Forrest owns and is way too cool for his lovely dad.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 22:36
|
|
|
why create a fantasy world in which people can be anything they want, even a dragon, and still have your character be a raging transphobe
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 22:43
|
|
|
I'm ashamed it took me a bit to understand what was going on here. Elise continues being simply the best. Are we sure she's murderdad daughter? Leo, get that stick out of your rear end and beat the bandits with it, stat. Then APOLOGIZE.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 22:46
|
|
|
SloppyDoughnuts posted:Forrest owns and is way too cool for his lovely dad. Tae posted:
I agree with both of these
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2017 22:58
|
|
|
Lilith, stop, just stop. Maybe if you had more screen time, or maybe actually fought alongside us, I'd feel for you. And don't get me started on your death; yes, you can't always choose how you'll go, true, but come on, she could've tanked that hit. I'm just going to let Gremio show you how it's done: https://youtu.be/MYGAuDm6yF4
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 01:04
|
|
|
Also, what the poo poo, Leo? I get that Forrest is a bit more...flamboyant than you were expecting, but do you have to be so crass-- ...oh, don't tell me this is some lovely attempt to protect your son. drat it, mimicking your father is not a good idea! 
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 01:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 13:05 |
|
|
It's really loving jarring to go from Leo telling Charlotte "men have no right to define how women should act" to, well... this.
|
|
#
?
May 29, 2017 01:42
|
|
