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Jobbo_Fett posted:Wrap the barrel in bacon, you'll know when its too hot. can anyone find pics of tank fried bacon? 
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May 29, 2017 13:12
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Why are water-cooled machine guns completely gone? For fixed positions it seems like they would be better.
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May 29, 2017 14:12
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david_a posted:Why are water-cooled machine guns completely gone? For fixed positions it seems like they would be better. My guess would be that .50 cal machine guns are better than Maxims and weigh only about 10kg more with tripod. e: How long does it take to change M2 Machine Gun's barrel if it gets too hot? And for how long do you have to shoot with it to make the barrel too hot? Hogge Wild fucked around with this message at 14:22 on May 29, 2017 |
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May 29, 2017 14:19
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david_a posted:Why are water-cooled machine guns completely gone? For fixed positions it seems like they would be better. Sustained fire over such long stretches doesn't really fit anymore. They're very bulky and heavy and have a set up time longer than an air-cooled machinegun, making them ill suited for more mobile warfare.
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May 29, 2017 14:32
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Hogge Wild posted:My guess would be that .50 cal machine guns are better than Maxims and weigh only about 10kg more with tripod. Changing an M2 barrel is about a 30 second process or so, you just unscrew it, pull it out and screw a fresh one in. With the heavy barrels they use now, IIRC there isn't a need to do combat swaps for the barrels like you would for a 240 or 249. Edit: Take that with a grain of salt though, it's been a couple of years since I got to play around with .50s.
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May 29, 2017 14:45
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Hogge Wild posted:My guess would be that .50 cal machine guns are better than Maxims and weigh only about 10kg more with tripod. Weight is a big factor, yeah. Its also easier to simply change the barrel than needing a constant supply of water. As for your edit, there's a video of a guy changing a MA DEUCE barrel in under 20 seconds, but I haven't watched it yet and I don't know how proficient he is with it. My MG-34 is a bitch and hates going through the barrel-changing motions, but if it took me more than a minute I'd be surprised. As for how long you have to shoot it before it gets too hot, not sure.
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May 29, 2017 14:46
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The Lone Badger posted:Stupid machinegun question: How do the operators know when it's too hot and they need to change the barrel? Do they just keep mental track of how many belts they've fired in the last fifteen minutes? Is there a little pop-up indicator? Does the loader have one of those infrared thermometers to point at the barrel? It is indeed just a matter of tracking how many times you reloaded/belts expended, and changing the barrel every X reloads most of the time. david_a posted:Why are water-cooled machine guns completely gone? For fixed positions it seems like they would be better. They are gone simply because they are not very man portable, so if you want something to go with a squad on foot you want something lighter, and if you're going to carry it on a vehicle you can carry something with more punch than a rifle caliber machinegun. Water cooled guns still exist for anti-air autocannons, where you need very high rates of fire and very long bursts of fire, air cooling will not cut it. Thump! posted:Changing an M2 barrel is about a 30 second process or so, you just unscrew it, pull it out and screw a fresh one in. With the heavy barrels they use now, IIRC there isn't a need to do combat swaps for the barrels like you would for a 240 or 249. That quick change barrel is relatively recent, they used not to be terribly field swappable, the older guns had to be headspaced after a barrel change. The M2A1 added that quick swap capability less that 10 years ago.
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May 29, 2017 15:14
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A more stupid MG question: are M2s still in production? I once read somewhere that we're still riding WW2 stocks.
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May 29, 2017 15:40
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IIRC most of the M2s got uptaded to M2A1 recently, and yes it is still in production, it is sold internationally to basically every Western country.
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May 29, 2017 15:51
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Kafouille posted:Water cooled guns still exist for anti-air autocannons, where you need very high rates of fire and very long bursts of fire, air cooling will not cut it. The closest thing I've found are WW2 AA machine guns: 
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May 29, 2017 15:54
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JcDent posted:A more stupid MG question: are M2s still in production? I once read somewhere that we're still riding WW2 stocks. They are still making new production M2A1s, as far as I know. But they're mostly upgrading existing M2s. However, there are guns in service still from WW2 and even older, with one of the oldest being something like 90 years old.
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May 29, 2017 15:59
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mlmp08 posted:They are still making new production M2A1s, as far as I know. But they're mostly upgrading existing M2s. However, there are guns in service still from WW2 and even older, with one of the oldest being something like 90 years old. It kinda fucks my mind how something made almost a century ago is still in use and is still as effective as the day it was produced...
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May 29, 2017 16:00
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Water-cooled systems make more sense when weight is less of a factor than it is for infantry mobility: 
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May 29, 2017 16:06
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Wrap the barrel in bacon, you'll know when its too hot. The Ted Cruz method.
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May 29, 2017 16:35
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Doesn't hold a candle to Chicken Cheese with Diesel https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3498320&userid=25431#post409791801
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May 29, 2017 17:11
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Kafouille posted:It is indeed just a matter of tracking how many times you reloaded/belts expended, and changing the barrel every X reloads most of the time. What do you do with the spare now burning hot barrel, find a safe place in the grass to stick it and hope you remember it later?
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May 29, 2017 17:25
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Thump! posted:Changing an M2 barrel is about a 30 second process or so, you just unscrew it, pull it out and screw a fresh one in. Don't you have to headspace it afterwards?
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May 29, 2017 17:31
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Flappy Bert posted:What do you do with the spare now burning hot barrel, find a safe place in the grass to stick it and hope you remember it later? Depends on the time, place, and nation, but usually you have some form of canvas sack, leather container, asbestos pouch that you could put it in or on, or just leave it on the ground to cool off.
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May 29, 2017 17:31
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Phanatic posted:Don't you have to headspace it afterwards? Not on the M2A1. A good and relatively recent upgrade. I'm betting you still have to headspace it in non-combat environments out of an abundance of caution and because old fogeys from before the upgrade write the safety regs.
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May 29, 2017 17:32
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Greggster posted:It kinda fucks my mind how something made almost a century ago is still in use and is still as effective as the day it was produced... IIRC they replaced the M2HB on American vehicles at one point, then next upgrade cycle they changed back because the replacement turned out to be inferior.
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May 29, 2017 17:44
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For about 20 years, every pom cycle the army would list into replacement or heavy crew served weapon as required capability upgrade. Industry would try and create something and it would be tested and it always ended up not just making the upgrade requirements, but in most cases being inferior to the M2. I think they finally gave up on the most recent cycle and have just conceded the M2 will live forever. I am guessing eventually someone will come up with some sort of crew served weapon that can deliver guided rounds and targeted high explosive in a cost-efficient manner but no one has yet
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May 29, 2017 17:49
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Greggster posted:It kinda fucks my mind how something made almost a century ago is still in use and is still as effective as the day it was produced... Welcome to mature technology. It's likely that the B-52 will end up in service for 100 years. The AK-47 has been around for 70 years. Pretty much every modern airliner owes its shape more or less to a design that's 63 years old at this point. For these kinds of technologies there simply isn't that much improvement to be made over the basic design - revolutionary designs past that point tend to run cost-prohibitive like supersonic transports and/or have big problems that offset their advantages like caseless ammunition. bewbies posted:For about 20 years, every pom cycle the army would list into replacement or heavy crew served weapon as required capability upgrade. Industry would try and create something and it would be tested and it always ended up not just making the upgrade requirements, but in most cases being inferior to the M2. I think they finally gave up on the most recent cycle and have just conceded the M2 will live forever. Would that even replace the M2? It's not like the US military doesn't already use Mark-19's and M2s at the same time.
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May 29, 2017 17:57
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What level are machine guns at in the modern US military? I know that you have SAWs at the platoon (?) level, but where are the M2 gunners, and where and how are they deployed?
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May 29, 2017 18:01
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MikeCrotch posted:Welcome to mature technology. It's likely that the B-52 will end up in service for 100 years. The AK-47 has been around for 70 years. Pretty much every modern airliner owes its shape more or less to a design that's 63 years old at this point. For these kinds of technologies there simply isn't that much improvement to be made over the basic design - revolutionary designs past that point tend to run cost-prohibitive like supersonic transports and/or have big problems that offset their advantages like caseless ammunition. The AK-47 was replaced several times over. IIRC the most recent AK Adesigns share nothing with the original, but they retain the shape for the sake of the brand.
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May 29, 2017 18:11
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zoux posted:What level are machine guns at in the modern US military? I know that you have SAWs at the platoon (?) level, but where are the M2 gunners, and where and how are they deployed? I don't think you're going to run into dismounted heavy machine guns before the heavy weapons company, which is a battalion-level asset.
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May 29, 2017 18:18
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zoux posted:What level are machine guns at in the modern US military? I know that you have SAWs at the platoon (?) level, but where are the M2 gunners, and where and how are they deployed? heavy machine guns are in an infantry battalion's weapons co with 81/120mm mortars, and tows/javalins. medium machine guns are in an infantry company's weapons platoon with 60mm mortars and smaws/javalins(for the marines). the medium machine guns and smaws/javs support the line platoons directly. in the marines, some of the machineguns and tows/javs from weapons form a combined anti armor team(caat) for anti-armor duties, screening the battalion or to provide qrf(depends on what type of war is being fought) and some are tasked out to the line company's to provide direct support.
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May 29, 2017 18:20
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I thought SAWs, the clue being in the name, were deployed at the squad level, being what the automatic rifleman would carry. AFAIK they fill the same role as the Bren/BAR while the M240 is more like the .30 cal thing the Americans used in WW2 that I can never remember the designation for, as it fires a full size rifle round.
OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:30 on May 29, 2017 |
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May 29, 2017 18:28
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zoux posted:What level are machine guns at in the modern US military? I know that you have SAWs at the platoon (?) level, but where are the M2 gunners, and where and how are they deployed? People who know infantry have already posted, but basically any old vehicle is the wildcard of "that poo poo might have an M2/M240 on it" when it comes to the US military. And SAWs get issued to POG units.
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May 29, 2017 18:30
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In the US Army, M249s are (were? Have they replaced them yet?) assigned at the fire team level, which means each squad gets at least two SAWs.
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May 29, 2017 18:33
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MrYenko posted:In the US Army, M249s are (were? Have they replaced them yet?) assigned at the fire team level, which means each squad gets at least two SAWs. How many guys in a squad? And it's five squads to a platoon right?
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May 29, 2017 18:34
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zoux posted:How many guys in a squad? About a dozen. Fireteam is four people ideally so a nominal strength squad is three teams of four and the squad leader. For America at least, everyone kind of does it differently. The UK operates on a two-team section with three sections in a platoon. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:38 on May 29, 2017 |
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May 29, 2017 18:35
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Flappy Bert posted:What do you do with the spare now burning hot barrel, find a safe place in the grass to stick it and hope you remember it later? That would one of the jobs of the assistant gunner, and yeah you'd stick them near the gun until they have cooled enough to be put back in either the gun or your pack.
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May 29, 2017 18:35
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zoux posted:How many guys in a squad? And it's five squads to a platoon right? US is (mostly) on the triangle system. Three fire teams in a squad. Three squads in a platoon. Three line platoons in a company. Three line companies in a battalion. Three battalions in a regiment. All sorts of extra specialized things added on like the battalion weapons company
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May 29, 2017 18:39
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So a platoon is going to have six SAW gunners? drat.
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May 29, 2017 18:46
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Ensign Expendable posted:The AK-47 was replaced several times over. IIRC the most recent AK Adesigns share nothing with the original, but they retain the shape for the sake of the brand. In terms of basic operation, the latest AKs are basically the same as the 1947 design. Other than furniture, the changes are mostly small ones like adding or removing holes or cuts or putting rivets in different spots. I think the first AK-74 prototypes were even just caliber conversions of the AKM design. The M1911 is another timeless design. Browning's slide design pretty much set the standard for pistols for the foreseeable future and the design has passed 100 years old with no sign of dropping popularity. Evidence has even found guns with original M1911 parts from World War I being used all the way through Desert Storm, as the guns in service by that point were a mishmash of different manufacturers and years put together into working pistols.
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May 29, 2017 19:01
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zoux posted:So a platoon is going to have six SAW gunners? drat. Nine, assuming optimal strength. Unless, I guess, one of your fireteams is carrying light anti tank instead of their automatic rifle or something.
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May 29, 2017 19:15
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chitoryu12 posted:The M1911 is another timeless design. Browning's slide design pretty much set the standard for pistols for the foreseeable future and the design has passed 100 years old with no sign of dropping popularity. Evidence has even found guns with original M1911 parts from World War I being used all the way through Desert Storm, as the guns in service by that point were a mishmash of different manufacturers and years put together into working pistols. John Browning was a smart, smart man. The Hi-Power is still in active production (by seven different companies) and is in regular service with first-world military and police forces, the short-recoil action is almost universal in semiautomatic handguns, the Winchester 94 in .30-30 has probably taken more deer in the USA than all other calibers combined, his semiautomatic shotgun was in production for 100 years starting in 1898 and sold millions of units. I don't think there's a category of firearms he wasn't hugely influential on except revolvers.
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May 29, 2017 19:55
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I'm doing some other stuff this weekend and I have the TV on to TCM, it's their memorial weekend war movie marathon. Talking about accuracy in "Where Eagles Dare": Richard Burton and Clint Eastwood survey the Fortress-schloss that they have to break into; then a helicopter flies overhead and lands there. The German heavy exits the helicopter, and the top German is all "it looks dangerous." German Heavy is all "not so bad".
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May 29, 2017 20:15
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The Lone Badger posted:Stupid machinegun question: How do the operators know when it's too hot and they need to change the barrel? Do they just keep mental track of how many belts they've fired in the last fifteen minutes? Is there a little pop-up indicator? Does the loader have one of those infrared thermometers to point at the barrel? They just feel it I think
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May 29, 2017 20:18
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Phanatic posted:John Browning was a smart, smart man. The Hi-Power is still in active production (by seven different companies) and is in regular service with first-world military and police forces, the short-recoil action is almost universal in semiautomatic handguns, the Winchester 94 in .30-30 has probably taken more deer in the USA than all other calibers combined, his semiautomatic shotgun was in production for 100 years starting in 1898 and sold millions of units. I don't think there's a category of firearms he wasn't hugely influential on except revolvers. John Browning was extremely influential on revolvers, in that no military bothers using them anymore 
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May 29, 2017 20:56
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