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morallyobjected posted:Rinoa is nowhere as bad as Irvine, insofar as Irvine has no characterisation at all other than "hits on girls and is incompetent" a theory was pointed out to me recently, and that theory is that the reason irvine is choking at the assassination part is because he remembers that edea is his orphanage mom and is just making stuff up so that he doesn't have to do it. i don't know if that really holds since he actually...does shoot at her. and it looks like it was going to be a headshot too. maybe he was trying to miss on purpose idk.
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May 30, 2017 21:09
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GulagDolls posted:a theory was pointed out to me recently, and that theory is that the reason irvine is choking at the assassination part is because he remembers that edea is his orphanage mom and is just making stuff up so that he doesn't have to do it. It's also one of the rare times that a character uses an in-game ability to save themselves. Nobody seems to have a Phoenix Down or a Protect spell available when characters canonically die or become seriously injured, but Edea was prepared so I'll give her props for that.
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May 30, 2017 21:10
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Taking it back to the conversation about tonal shifts, I think the relationship between Sazh and Vanille does this well. While they're off journeying by themselves on the Sunleth Waterscape and Nautilus it's pretty light-hearted (even humourous), very surprising considering that their future is looking pretty grim. Their arc climaxes in a dark place with Sazh finding out that Vanille is responsible for the fate of his son, which is especially tragic because out of the main six Sazh and Vanille are the ones that have the closest thing to a friendship and that their journey so far has been almost pleasant and fun.
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May 30, 2017 21:12
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Coughing Hobo posted:Well yeah, but that's metal as hell. FFXIII didn't have that going for it. metal is for kids with adhd
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May 30, 2017 21:13
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GulagDolls posted:a theory was pointed out to me recently, and that theory is that the reason irvine is choking at the assassination part is because he remembers that edea is his orphanage mom and is just making stuff up so that he doesn't have to do it. I don't think it's so much a theory as it's pretty much what the game foreshadows. Irvine knows who Edea is, but hides it since four of the kids he knew from the ORPHANAGE don't recognize him or whatever. He definitely makes the shot, so it's not that he's nervous about the pressure, just that killing your mother figure is kiiiiiinda difficult to do for some reason. Also she probably would've died if they didn't close the gate on her first to alert her. I don't know why the gate had to be the trigger for the shot rather than the shot the trigger for closing the gate.
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May 30, 2017 21:13
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I always thought that the reason why they forgot about the orphanage being due to the use of Junction and GF was really interesting and compelling. Of course, they instantly resolve it with "GF gives me the power to protect people so I'm using it" but the idea was cool.
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May 30, 2017 21:16
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Irvine is a womanizing traitor and that's all there is to his character. He doesn't grow, he doesn't accomplish anything, he is a waste of pixels and text. I seriously can't think of a worse character in the history of Final Fantasy. There's nothing redeeming about him whatsoever. Can't even use gameplay argument because everyone controls the same in VIII. outside of Limits and his Limits aren't amazing as far as I recall.
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May 30, 2017 21:18
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NikkolasKing posted:Irvine is a womanizing traitor and that's all there is to his character. He doesn't grow, he doesn't accomplish anything, he is a waste of pixels and text. Irvine has one of the most damaging limit breaks in the game due to the way it works. If you spam Fast Shot you can deal something like 120,000 damage in a limit break. Edit: I believe he's eclipsed only by Squall and Zell, excluding The End, though I may be misremembering. Admittedly Zell beats everyone else combined. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:24 on May 30, 2017 |
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May 30, 2017 21:19
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corn in the bible posted:metal is for kids with adhd Iron deficiency is a very serious thing.
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May 30, 2017 21:19
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yeah i was just wondering why he takes the shot at all. i guess at that point though, it's kind of obvious that edea has gone totally bonkers. i forgot about all the stuff she does at the parade. apparently there's also a piece of dialogue where he says "i didn't want to fight matron back then" or something like that, but I can't find the script. still, going for the headshot in that light is pretty ruthless
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May 30, 2017 21:19
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NikkolasKing posted:Irvine is a womanizing traitor and that's all there is to his character. He doesn't grow, he doesn't accomplish anything, he is a waste of pixels and text. He's my least favorite in the game, also. He had the one good moment with him remembering the orphanage experience but after that, he just kinda disappears for me. Edit: SHOT is a good Limit Break if you have some of the special, rare ammo. Does a lot of damage.
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May 30, 2017 21:20
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some traitors arent even cool enough to hit on girls
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May 30, 2017 21:26
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GulagDolls posted:some traitors arent even cool enough to hit on girls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKtiLHCbjHU
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May 30, 2017 21:29
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I was maybe 50% joking. Irvine is definitely a boring one-note character but I mostly mentioned him to emphasize how boring and one-note I found Rinoa to be e: srsly tho wtf was up with all the NORG bullshit (and just the Shumi people overall, they played basically zero role in any aspect of the plot whatsoever except for NORG) Snow Cone Capone fucked around with this message at 21:38 on May 30, 2017 |
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May 30, 2017 21:34
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Mega64 posted:I don't think it's so much a theory as it's pretty much what the game foreshadows. Irvine knows who Edea is, but hides it since four of the kids he knew from the ORPHANAGE don't recognize him or whatever. He definitely makes the shot, so it's not that he's nervous about the pressure, just that killing your mother figure is kiiiiiinda difficult to do for some reason. Irvine knew exactly who Edea was because he didn't junction with a GF until meeting with the party in Galbadia. Junctioning a GF causes memory loss and I believe that was explained in the in game guide at some point or another. It also gets explained during the orphanage scenes.
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May 30, 2017 21:38
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Vargatron posted:Irvine knew exactly who Edea was because he didn't junction with a GF until meeting with the party in Galbadia. Junctioning a GF causes memory loss and I believe that was explained in the in game guide at some point or another. It also gets explained during the orphanage scenes. Yeah, the reason Selphie doesn't remember is because she
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May 30, 2017 21:40
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Vargatron posted:Irvine knew exactly who Edea was because he didn't junction with a GF until meeting with the party in Galbadia. Junctioning a GF causes memory loss and I believe that was explained in the in game guide at some point or another. It also gets explained during the orphanage scenes. I want to say it gets mentioned really early on in the game too, doesn't it? Either in one of the tutorials you can access from the console at the very start in the classroom, or at some point on the way to/inside Ifrit's cave.
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May 30, 2017 21:44
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Also I think there was a subplot in there about the Garden staff not telling the students the memory loss side effects of GF junctioning and that was an ethical dilemma. Or maybe I misremembered that.
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May 30, 2017 21:44
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NikkolasKing posted:Irvine is a womanizing traitor and that's all there is to his character. He doesn't grow, he doesn't accomplish anything, he is a waste of pixels and text. this but squall  ImpAtom posted:Edit: I believe he's eclipsed only by Squall and Zell, excluding The End, though I may be misremembering. Admittedly Zell beats everyone else combined. zell is miles away the best, but for some reason i feel like wishing star hits more times than lionheart? but because it's unreliable and you might get angelo search, squall + any limit will average out to being better than anything on-demand from rinoa. Fur20 fucked around with this message at 21:47 on May 30, 2017 |
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May 30, 2017 21:45
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The White Dragon posted:this but squall Squall has a perfect hit rate and the highest damage limit break that isn't Zell!
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May 30, 2017 21:46
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Kelp Me! posted:I was maybe 50% joking. Irvine is definitely a boring one-note character but I mostly mentioned him to emphasize how boring and one-note I found Rinoa to be when a red fox gets too greedy they turn into a blog of yellow sealant foam wearing a robe. i think there must be some yokai background im missing
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May 30, 2017 21:46
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GulagDolls posted:when a red fox gets too greedy they turn into a blog of yellow sealant foam wearing a robe. i think there must be some yokai background im missing It's the opposite, weirdly, IIRC. Shumi turn into Moomba, not vice-versa.
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May 30, 2017 21:47
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GulagDolls posted:when a red fox gets too greedy they turn into a blog of yellow sealant foam wearing a robe. i think there must be some yokai background im missing I thought it was the opposite and the Shumi all want to turn into moombas Vargatron posted:Also I think there was a subplot in there about the Garden staff not telling the students the memory loss side effects of GF junctioning and that was an ethical dilemma. I think you're right and it may have been handwaved away as part of the dumb "actually NORG was the real evil mastermind behind training teenagers to be mercenaries" thing
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May 30, 2017 21:48
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GulagDolls posted:when a red fox gets too greedy they turn into a blog of yellow sealant foam wearing a robe. i think there must be some yokai background im missing you have it backwards where moombas are the perfect form of shumis, but as far as i'm aware, there's no japanese lore behind it. it's just 
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May 30, 2017 21:48
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ImpAtom posted:It's the opposite, weirdly, IIRC. Shumi turn into Moomba, not vice-versa. Is your AV an upside down version of Fister Roboto's? Did I miss something funny in the FFXIV thread?
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May 30, 2017 21:49
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Kelp Me! posted:Is your AV an upside down version of Fister Roboto's? Did I miss something funny in the FFXIV thread? Someone bought everyone in the thread a Riker avatar for some reason. I miss my old one but when I tried to buy it back they just re-bought it so welp. 
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May 30, 2017 21:50
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Kelp Me! posted:I thought it was the opposite and the Shumi all want to turn into moombas There was the sidequest you could take to the Shumi village, but there really wasn't a ton of context.
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May 30, 2017 22:03
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too many shumi lore experts on these forums in the japanese version fujin just had like, a single character in her text boxes yeah? was there any kind of equivalent to her YELLING all her dialogue or was the yelling just added for funsies
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May 30, 2017 22:05
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GulagDolls posted:too many shumi lore experts on these forums Her dialogue is just supposed to be short and terse and sound a little odd. The all-caps was their attempt to convey that. It's not something easy to convey so I don't blame them.
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May 30, 2017 22:08
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Harrow posted:Did I miss something there? I've rewatched that whole sequence a couple of times since I finished FF13 and I still can't figure out at what point "if we kill Orphan, we'll be doing exactly what the fal'Cie want and dooming Cocoon" turns into "let's kill Orphan and save the world!" Do you mean after Bart 2 at the end of Oerba, or after Orphan 1? On the former, them going back to Cocoon to get involved in the poo poo with Eden + beyond was because Dysley forced their hand. He put the resurrected Cid, previously leader of the Calvary (aka the anti-fal'Cie guys), into the role of the new Primarch. Then Dysley told the Calvary that Cid's strings were being pulled by Orphan and that Orphan was behind all the pulse poo poo too. Calvary would see this betrayal and manipulation and they'd be spurred into attacking Orphan, which Lightning's crew fear might spring up the Creator anyways. After fighting Bart 2, Lightning's crew basically decide this: they want to kill Dysley/Bart to stop his fuckery of the people of Cocoon/Calvary, knowing that it might spur Orphan's appearance, and if so try to convince all the other humans not to touch Orphan. That's when they go to Eden. It's complicated, maybe overly so, but there is a logic to it at least. If you mean after Orphan 1, that's when things get messy. There's no real confirmation of things as far as I can see, but let me try to say what I think they were going for: During the fights between Bart 3/Orphan 1, both guys pretty much tell you that humans have dangerous powers to change fate. Orphan literally says "you guys can achieve the impossible. Your power is beyond measure. That's why we make you guys l'Cie and use you like tools to achieve our goals." Then everyone but Fang and Vanille get turned into cie'th, then magically recover to normal and their brands become white (which can signify either their focus being gone or a shift in their focus). The party says they had visions of saving Cocoon. Then they talk about how they have the power to save everything and do what they want. This is only my ~speculation~ here, but it looks to me like everything in the above paragraph made them think they really had the power to magically save everything. Kind of like a "well poo poo, if we survived that, maybe we really can do anything!"-high. And with that feeling behind them, and maybe thinking that not becoming Ragnarok would make everything okay, they fought Orphan 2 thinking they could save everything. Yeah it barely makes sense, and even among the plenty of complicated things in FNC this isn't really clarified anywhere why they thought fighting Orphan 2 would work out despite knowing already Orphan powers everything. It just looks like one of the several rushed cut scenes in the game. It's here to loosely explain how there are 3 boss fights at the end and they didn't piece it altogether very well. 
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May 30, 2017 22:13
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All you really need to know is that these guys are a bunch of gently caress-ups with regards to that whole Fighting Fate thing so Caius had to come in and show them how it's done.
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May 30, 2017 22:17
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I always thought GFs causing memory loss was a dumb "how do we write us out of this dilemma" cop-out in FF8. Irvine was a boring cliche ladies man, but I loved his limit break the best.
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May 30, 2017 23:26
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Irvine was a guy who tried to be a ladies' man but failed hard at it. The bigger mystery is why is NORG so loving fat
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May 31, 2017 00:09
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Mega64 posted:Irvine was a guy who tried to be a ladies' man but failed hard at it. hot dogs norg starts the fight with only 20% of his health if you choose this option  
Help Im Alive fucked around with this message at 00:20 on May 31, 2017 |
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May 31, 2017 00:12
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Is that true I have no idea when it comes to FF8
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May 31, 2017 00:21
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Mega64 posted:Irvine was a guy who tried to be a ladies' man but failed hard at it. Capitalism. FFVII had a scathing critique of it that carried over into FFVIII and Xenogears. NORG was a guy who only cared about money and it literally made him fat and ugly.
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May 31, 2017 00:25
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Sakurazuka posted:Is that true Yes. That is actual dialogue.
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May 31, 2017 00:49
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Kelp Me! posted:s Final Fantasy 8 suffered from a lack of direction. It's clear that the first half of the game is As Intended, a fairly tightly-paced military drama about teenage mercenaries. Galbadia is the villain but it could easily have been tweaked to allow opportunities to fight other nations in the world. Given the presence of Moombas and Shumi, and Galbadia's attitude towards them in the prison, I suspect that racism was going to be a larger subplot or element to the story, but it was hijacked by the later elements. I mean, FF8 is basically four stories in one: SEED, teenage mercenaries, maintaining optimism in the face of grim war (largely embodied by Selphie, so quickly dropped that after Dollet the game shifts pacing entirely) The rebellion needs help overthrowing the evil empire Evil witch wants to destroy the world Nebbish journalist somehow blunders into becoming president of Space Mountain. It's basic coherence is kind of impressive given how much they were trying to chew with one bite.
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May 31, 2017 00:54
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Eh. Final Fantasy 8 has an overaching theme about aging and memory that is pretty present throughout, both in terms of memories lingering, memories being lost and the impact those memories have. Each of the plot beats basically just boils down to that and a lot of stuff is lost in translation. Ultimecia's entire motivation for example is exactly Squall's big outburst: she doesn't want to be forgotten or lost and she wants to fuse time so that she is the only thing in existence and everyone will be forced to remember her forever. In the Japanese version her final dialogue has a LOT more taunting about memories, it's pretty hamfisted and absent from the US version. If you look at the overaching plot it actually has a strong central theme that brings all the seemingly disparate plot elements together. It's just both badly translated and not well executed.
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May 31, 2017 01:47
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8-Bit Scholar posted:Final Fantasy 8 suffered from a lack of direction. It's clear that the first half of the game is As Intended, a fairly tightly-paced military drama about teenage mercenaries. Galbadia is the villain but it could easily have been tweaked to allow opportunities to fight other nations in the world. Given the presence of Moombas and Shumi, and Galbadia's attitude towards them in the prison, I suspect that racism was going to be a larger subplot or element to the story, but it was hijacked by the later elements. Eh some of that is a bit of a stretch, the Shumi are basically absent from 99% of the game. Considering the Moombas are little furry dudes that don't really talk I don't buy the racism subplot angle, it's just the bad guys being mean to the furry animals. In addition to what ImpAtom said, which I agree with 100%, those 4 stories are really pretty closely tied in in almost every way. Even at the base level, the teen mercs are thrown into the grim war against the evil empire. To do that, they ally with the rebellion against the evil empire. The evil empire is being manipulated by the evil witch to destroy the world. Laguna's arc doesn't directly tie in at the time, but I think it's really great and not that confusing that they did the whole past flashbacks that slowly made more sense as the game went on and built up to a great reunion that was also plot-relevant.
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May 31, 2017 02:01
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