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Airpower goons, I've got something you may be able to help me with. I'm planning to visit the Moscow area in late September and would like to get out to the Central Air Force Museum in Monino. But I've been getting conflicting reports about whether it's still open. Some sources are saying it was closed early last year. Others are saying it's still open but may close soon. Knowledgeable goons, is the Monino Musuem still open? And if so, when can it be visited? Bacarruda fucked around with this message at 13:27 on May 31, 2017 |
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May 31, 2017 13:21
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Anyone who's ever dealt with any kind of industrial high-pressure steam system before will immediately understand why the Navy wants to get away from steam cats. They're hilariously heavy, large, maintenance and operational-manning intensive, dangerous motherfuckers (to the flight crews and to the ships' crews.) I have former coworkers that worked the cats and arresting gear on USS Kitty Hawk, and not just no, but gently caress NO. They're a safety-critical system, so the inspection and maintenance requirements are just absurd. Also, gently caress live steam, and triple-gently caress live steam at sea. That is the stuff of nightmares.
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May 31, 2017 14:40
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Yeah, that's another good point, steam is loving terrifying when poo poo goes wrong. It's been seventy years so we are pretty good at operating steam catspults but it's time to move the gently caress on. CATOBAR operations are hard enough that the brits just said " gently caress it give us the gimped f35" instead of installing it, but that's another debate.
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May 31, 2017 15:19
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Bacarruda posted:Airpower goons, I've got something you may be able to help me with. I've heard similar about the tank museum at Kubinka. In that case, they seem to be moving much of the armor a couple of miles east to a huge new "Patriot's Park". The new place seems to have a large aircraft contingent as well. Perhaps they are consolidating Monino and Kubinka together? I was going to e-mail one of the professional tour companies for status, but not book with them.
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May 31, 2017 15:42
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I've always wondered why they don't use a gently caress-off huge electric motor with a bunch of cables and pulleys to launch aircraft instead of steam. There has got to be a fairly obvious reason why it's not in use, but to my limited knowledge it seems like it would be a good idea. You could have a linear increase in speed instead of a sudden jerk, and reliability should also be pretty high as well. Also it would seem like the space occupied by such a setup would be much less than current steam systems. Anyone want to let me in on the secret?
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May 31, 2017 16:16
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MrYenko posted:Anyone who's ever dealt with any kind of industrial high-pressure steam system before will immediately understand why the Navy wants to get away from steam cats. They're hilariously heavy, large, maintenance and operational-manning intensive, dangerous motherfuckers (to the flight crews and to the ships' crews.) I have former coworkers that worked the cats and arresting gear on USS Kitty Hawk, and not just no, but gently caress NO. They're a safety-critical system, so the inspection and maintenance requirements are just absurd. Steam has a ton of useful properties and applications, but yeah, I'm pretty glad I don't work on ships. Please do stick it in every commercial building* though, please!  *Except mine.
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May 31, 2017 16:20
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Blistex posted:I've always wondered why they don't use a gently caress-off huge electric motor with a bunch of cables and pulleys to launch aircraft instead of steam. There has got to be a fairly obvious reason why it's not in use, but to my limited knowledge it seems like it would be a good idea. You could have a linear increase in speed instead of a sudden jerk, and reliability should also be pretty high as well. Also it would seem like the space occupied by such a setup would be much less than current steam systems. So um... What exactly do you think EMALs consists of? 
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May 31, 2017 16:22
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MrYenko posted:Anyone who's ever dealt with any kind of industrial high-pressure steam system before will immediately understand why the Navy wants to get away from steam cats. They're hilariously heavy, large, maintenance and operational-manning intensive, dangerous motherfuckers (to the flight crews and to the ships' crews.) I have former coworkers that worked the cats and arresting gear on USS Kitty Hawk, and not just no, but gently caress NO. They're a safety-critical system, so the inspection and maintenance requirements are just absurd. High pressure steam is scary as hell and I'm convinced if I ever die at work it'll be from an ancient 1 inch tube snapping on a 900lb steam line gauge. With all this talk of long runs of pipe though, being completely unfamiliar with carrier setups, how do they deal with water hammer? Do they keep all the pipes up to pressure and temperature in between deck ops? Or does some poor schmuck have to turn a couple valves/push some buttons to drain the condensate first?
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May 31, 2017 16:23
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SeaborneClink posted:So um... What exactly do you think EMALs consists of? A linear induction motor.
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May 31, 2017 16:23
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winnydpu posted:I've heard similar about the tank museum at Kubinka. In that case, they seem to be moving much of the armor a couple of miles east to a huge new "Patriot's Park". The new place seems to have a large aircraft contingent as well. Perhaps they are consolidating Monino and Kubinka together? drat, I was planning on seeing Kubinka, too. So everything's a giant clusterfuck at the moment, then?
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May 31, 2017 16:37
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Blistex posted:I've always wondered why they don't use a gently caress-off huge electric motor with a bunch of cables and pulleys to launch aircraft instead of steam. There has got to be a fairly obvious reason why it's not in use, but to my limited knowledge it seems like it would be a good idea. You could have a linear increase in speed instead of a sudden jerk, and reliability should also be pretty high as well. Also it would seem like the space occupied by such a setup would be much less than current steam systems. That's...what EMALS is. It's a linear induction motor.
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May 31, 2017 16:38
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SeaborneClink posted:So um... What exactly do you think EMALs consists of? Uhhh, what do you think EMALS consists of? Phanatic posted:That's...what EMALS is. It's a linear induction motor. Holy poo poo, do was have some very literal people in this thread... When someone says "electric motor" 99 out of 100 times they mean something like this.  Not linear induction motors which is currently installed in the Ford and is currently a clusterfuck. \/ Yes, but instead of spooling, more like a single loop like a ski lift. (cue a sperglord saying gondolas would never launch an F-35) Blistex fucked around with this message at 16:44 on May 31, 2017 |
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May 31, 2017 16:38
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I think he's talking about using something more like a winch that rapidly spools in a cable that's attached to the carriage, instead of a linear induction motor to move the carriage along a rail. My cheeky answer is that spooling a cable that big that fast is going to wear it out fast as poo poo and be it's own sort of problems (and just imagine the cable snapping mid launch)
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May 31, 2017 16:41
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Blistex posted:I've always wondered why they don't use a gently caress-off huge electric motor with a bunch of cables and pulleys to launch aircraft instead of steam. There has got to be a fairly obvious reason why it's not in use, but to my limited knowledge it seems like it would be a good idea. You could have a linear increase in speed instead of a sudden jerk, and reliability should also be pretty high as well. Also it would seem like the space occupied by such a setup would be much less than current steam systems.
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May 31, 2017 16:47
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evil_bunnY posted:That's a bunch more failure points (cables, bearings, brakes, etc). And if you can modulate around the system elasticities with a pulley system (which introduces more, BTW) you can do it with a direct drive, pending hard physics limiting factors. OK, this was the sort of answer I was looking for. Thanks.
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May 31, 2017 16:51
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Blistex posted:\/ Yes, but instead of spooling, more like a single loop like a ski lift. (cue a sperglord saying gondolas would never launch an F-35) Cable's a giant point of failure. If it's a biplane you're launching off your battleship, a cable's probably okay, but a cable strong enough to launch real aircraft at the rate and reliability required is impractical, which is why no catapults since then have relied on towing the airplane along on a cable. You're trying to generate linear motion, so an electric motor that creates a rotary moment and coupling that into a linear moment isn't winning you much in the way of simplicity of design. You really *can't* get much simpler than a linear induction motor. As for the risks of steam, *anything* capable of hurling a 20-ton aircraft into the air is going to have interesting and dangerous failure modes, and steam's a mature system we have a century-plus institutional knowledge of (plus it's a nuclear ship so getting rid of steam catapults != getting rid of steam). Yeah, in theory a LIM should be really reliable, but for some reason it's not working out that way in practice.
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May 31, 2017 16:55
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NM, misread
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May 31, 2017 16:56
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MrYenko posted:Also, gently caress live steam, and triple-gently caress live steam at sea. That is the stuff of nightmares. Steam Line Rupture -> Do your immediate actions then die with dignity, hoping that people in other spaces deal with the rest. Avynte posted:High pressure steam is scary as hell and I'm convinced if I ever die at work it'll be from an ancient 1 inch tube snapping on a 900lb steam line gauge. Ships have constant watchteams, mechanics doing the roving and reading the gauges (and frequent checks for chlorides). When your ramp up for deck ops you crack a bypass valve and let the system come up to temp, blow down all your condensate traps a few times (by hand), and then open the main steam stops. There are dozens of poor schmucks who are in positions to do this.
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May 31, 2017 17:00
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M_Gargantua posted:Steam Line Rupture -> Do your immediate actions then die with dignity, hoping that people in other spaces deal with the rest.
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May 31, 2017 17:00
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Hopefully hypoxia gets you first. It'll still be incredibly uncomfortable as you boil alive but it'll be over in a minute or two rather than hours or days. Steam is scary, scary stuff but it's so very handy for some things.
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May 31, 2017 17:14
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welp, I should hit refresh more.
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May 31, 2017 17:43
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drzrma posted:Hopefully hypoxia gets you first. It'll still be incredibly uncomfortable as you boil alive but it'll be over in a minute or two rather than hours or days. Steam is scary, scary stuff but it's so very handy for some things. Now I'm curious to see injury stats from carriers. Who gets injured/killed more often, guys working on/around the steam lines for the catapults to launch aircraft off the deck, or the guys working to launch aircraft off the deck?
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May 31, 2017 17:45
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evil_bunnY posted:That's a bunch more failure points (cables, bearings, brakes, etc). And if you can modulate around the system elasticities with a pulley system (which introduces more, BTW) you can do it with a direct drive, pending hard physics limiting factors. I've been hanging from a mile long cable thick enough to hold a ~10 tons of weight and I can attest to the fact that cables are elastic as gently caress it's a wild ride when the platform you're on goes through some stiction and slows down and gives the cable a chance to just stretch out as it's still being wound up, and you wind up bouncing up and down for a minute as the system damps itself back out. fake edit: the cable in question 
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May 31, 2017 17:52
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Just reading that made me queasy.
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May 31, 2017 18:09
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Phanatic posted:Now I'm curious to see injury stats from carriers. Who gets injured/killed more often, guys working on/around the steam lines for the catapults to launch aircraft off the deck, or the guys working to launch aircraft off the deck? Pretty sure it's people on the flight deck, there's a loving  image somewhere of a guy who got hit in the face with the wingtip of a launching Hornet after standing up at exactly the wrong moment, ironically trying to stop a newbie from doing something dangerous.Spoilers: he did not survive.
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May 31, 2017 18:10
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US Navy cable snap back safety video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGH_GUbdTeQ You can watch the line wreck some mannequins around 3:20. e: Also a failed arrestor wire incident - real people injured, but nothing visually gruesome. One dude even manages to escape by twice jumping over the snapping line. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OxMox2Kdxs PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 18:57 on May 31, 2017 |
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May 31, 2017 18:49
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Bacarruda posted:So everything's a giant clusterfuck at the moment, then?
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May 31, 2017 20:17
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ftfy
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May 31, 2017 20:24
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I wouldn't be surprised if steam work caused more minor injuries (burned hand on a hot pipe), but flight deck work definitely seems more hazardous for major injuries or fatalities. There are a lot of ways a flight deck can kill you.
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May 31, 2017 20:35
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Wingnut Ninja posted:I wouldn't be surprised if steam work caused more minor injuries (burned hand on a hot pipe), but flight deck work definitely seems more hazardous for major injuries or fatalities. There are a lot of ways a flight deck can kill you. When a steam system fails, it fails hard. A high pressure steam leak is terrifying - I once had the search system described to me as "wave a broom in front of you while walking very slowly. When the end falls off, you've found the leak."
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May 31, 2017 21:44
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Yeah. There may be fewer ways to kill you, but when one is high pressure steam outside the system, that's plenty for a life of nightmares.
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May 31, 2017 22:01
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Sure, but anecdotally those kind of catastrophic accidents seem to happen less often than flight deck mishaps. Whereas hot pipes are loving everywhere.
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May 31, 2017 22:02
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Public Service Announcement: The 3 foot tall Lego Saturn V comes out tomorrow, you know you want it: https://shop.lego.com/en-US/LEGO-NASA-Apollo-Saturn-V-21309
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May 31, 2017 23:01
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Russian Navy fired some cruise missiles into Syria.
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May 31, 2017 23:10
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Smiling Jack posted:Yeah, that's another good point, steam is loving terrifying when poo poo goes wrong. It's been seventy years so we are pretty good at operating steam catspults but it's time to move the gently caress on. Not operations, but the expense of fitting them despite the design in theory allowing for it, but that would have been EMALS sooo. Steam catapults are literally a Royal Navy invention along with angled flight decks.
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May 31, 2017 23:11
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Shooting Blanks posted:When a steam system fails, it fails hard. A high pressure steam leak is terrifying - I once had the search system described to me as "wave a broom in front of you while walking very slowly. When the end falls off, you've found the leak." Here's my question: What is it that allows steam pipes to develop (apparently) pin hole leaks that will create an invisible pressure cutting blade? I've heard this before about how hosed up those can be. How do you end up with high pressure gas blasting through a small gap like that without the whole thing just grenading? To my uneducated mind that's the sort of situation that should probably be a very small, very violent leak for about a millisecond after which it erodes the break, things start fracturing quickly, until it becomes two very large pipe-shaped leaks on either end of a rapidly expanding cloud of used-to-be-pipe shrapnel.
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May 31, 2017 23:14
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Not quite cold war but kinda airpower and gently caress it I run Barter Town: Vulcan Aerospace just unveiled their new mega-plane for launching space rockets from. It's loving ginormous. LIke, loving insane. Howard Hughes level  Actually, more than that, because it's got a wingspan 65 feet longer than the Spruce Goose  
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May 31, 2017 23:33
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has anyone started calling it the carbon condor yet
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May 31, 2017 23:43
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feedmegin posted:Not operations, but the expense of fitting them despite the design in theory allowing for it, but that would have been EMALS sooo. Contributing factor is that that's a conventional carrier, so if they want steam they have to install an electrically-driven steam generator. Brits love electric kettles but that's a real complication.
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May 31, 2017 23:50
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Blistex posted:(cue a sperglord saying gondolas would never launch an F-35) that's never stopped navy planes from launching gondolas.
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