|
double nine posted:weird, I remembered book Vulkan having reinvented himself as a god of cars/motorway accidents. I'm probably just mixing them up. Wasn't there an implied new god specifically of highways, and enjoying all the blood sacrifice that happens on them?
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 15:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 00:40 |
|
|
Yeah, there is a New God of the Interstate system that doesn't appear in the book. Vulcan also doesn't appear, and his "coming to America" is only hinted at by a passing mention of pre-Columbian coinage found in the Ohio River Valley. Vulcan gets mentioned in relation to a town Gaiman recounts as being in Tennessee; a steel town with a statue of Vulcan and a higher than average accident rate. The families are paid off, because its determined that's more profitable than upping safety (which presumably would drain sacrifices away from Vulcan.) Also in the list of "mentioned, not really appearing" is "The Invisible Hand," a new god of capitalism that doesn't like to get involved and in the book opts to stay neutral. This god may have made a very brief appearance during in the shot from "Head Full of Snow" when a top-hatted silhouette can be briefly seen on the security camera footage.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 15:18
|
|
|
ZorajitZorajit posted:Also in the list of "mentioned, not really appearing" is "The Invisible Hand," a new god of capitalism that doesn't like to get involved and in the book opts to stay neutral. This god may have made a very brief appearance during in the shot from "Head Full of Snow" when a top-hatted silhouette can be briefly seen on the security camera footage. It isn't one; the Intangibles are the gods of market forces, and it makes a certain sense that they are plural because orthodox economics can be a bit religious and dogmatic 
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 15:56
|
|
|
Yeah there are Gods we don't see at all that are definitely things to be aware of. Wednesday is obviously terrified of the Highway God and makes Shadow take the back roads. Also, he only uses phones when absolutely needed; I can only imagine how much more powerful Telephone has gotten since the book was written-cell phones were only just starting to take off at the time as common objects, now smartphones are in constant use.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 16:11
|
|
|
The line blurs a bit with smartphones though since most of what they do probably falls under Tech Boy's portfolio, with the social media connections and all. Is it relevant that Tech Boy's MO for attacking his enemies is setting a horde of faceless goons on his enemies? Surely it is.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 16:56
|
|
|
My Lovely Horse posted:The line blurs a bit with smartphones though since most of what they do probably falls under Tech Boy's portfolio, with the social media connections and all. Well yeah, where do you think Anonymous sits in the house of worship?
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 17:09
|
|
|
My Lovely Horse posted:Is it relevant that Tech Boy's MO for attacking his enemies is setting a horde of faceless goons on his enemies? Surely it is. My first thought was that they were designed to match Twitter's egg avatars.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 17:13
|
|
|
It's interesting to think that in this setting, there may well be "new" gods that are already on their way out, seeing as how 19th and early 20th century values have largely gone from widespread to ridiculed. Mr. W. M. Burden living in a flat in Manchester with his wife, Britney Anna. Mr. Krasnyi, who immigrated from Russia, drinks a lot of vodka, and still calls everyone "comrade." Baron von Kultur living on stipend in Vienna, and his estranged brother who runs with a neonazi gang in Dresden. Is there an Enlightenment Jesus out there somewhere looking forlornly on all the more popular, younger Jesuses, or maybe a decrepit Cathar Jesus working as a prof of medieval comparative religion. Maybe all the european Jesuses work together to counter the decline of christianity there. Turkish Allah pulling a coup on the spirit of Ataturk?
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 18:48
|
|
|
Maybe flying a little close to fanfiction here, but what about a Spirit of the Millenium? A Lisa Frank-attired raver that grew out of 60s futurism, 80s mall-pop, 90s exuberance, and was at ground zero on 9/11. There was all kinds of stuff plastered with 2000, and untextured CGI bubbles that eventually decayed into 200X New Year's Eve costume glasses. Maybe a soft spot for the neo-pagan revivalists. And now absolutely stamped out by Startup TechBoy and Vulcan's Gun Fetishists (pun intended.)
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 18:56
|
|
|
That's veering quite close to Warren Ellis' Jenny Sparks, the spirit of the 20th century, who is the manifestation of electricity. Not that someone shouldn't make Authority and, while we're at it, Planetary shows.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 19:01
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:It's interesting to think that in this setting, there may well be "new" gods that are already on their way out It's not quite along the lines of your suggestions, but the book does mention some new gods with short-lived popularity. I think railroads was one of them.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 19:10
|
|
|
Zeus could rebrand himself as the God of Electricity and instead of throwing lightning bolts as spears he throws fluorescent light bulbs edit: did the book ever address when there were overlapping gods? Such as, how do Zeus, Thor and Raiden split responsibilities? Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 20:27 on May 31, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 20:11
|
|
|
If someone who worships Zeus prays for a storm, maybe that storm comes. If someone who worships Thor does the same, maybe the same. The gods as seen in AG don't have divine domains and responsibilities so much as they have worshippers who believe they do.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 20:56
|
|
|
I don't think overlapping domains were addressed, nor do they need to be, you get worship by people believing in you -- not the other way around. As for electricity, do people really worship it the way they worship media or guns? It's a utility, maybe even reverently regarded than water -- at least people in Flint, MI don't have to fight for electricity (I'm well aware this isn't the case everywhere, just illustrating a point.) So, being a thunder god might not be worth much. As for Thor and Raiden, well, the latter is probably on the cosplay and fighting game circuit. And the latter might have some renewed interest from white supremacists and Marvel fanboys (and the overlap thereof.)
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 20:59
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG-I8UnX1wk I feel kind of dumb for not picking up on this myself, but the Coming to America animation is relevant to the episode because Wednesday is being offered a subservient position in a stronger tribe, and unlike Atsula or Nunyunnini, Wednesday is unwilling to sacrifice his position to let his followers survive. Of course, that's also a feint because you book readers already know the whole thing is a con Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 21:05 on May 31, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 21:00
|
|
|
ZorajitZorajit posted:As for electricity, do people really worship it the way they worship media or guns? I could see it being a recent washed-up deity. We don't give it much thought in our daily lives anymore, but people were loving enchanted when electricity hit the scene.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 21:15
|
|
|
They've cast five Jesus already and I doubt it would happen this season but I'd love to see Eastern Orthodox Jesus.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 21:19
|
|
|
precision posted:They've cast five Jesus already and I doubt it would happen this season but I'd love to see Eastern Orthodox Jesus. I want a spinoff action comedy starring a squad of them. Also, maybe there's a talking head god of conservative talk shows who goes around TOTALLY DESTROYING liberal atheist professors, and he's friends with whichever Jesus owns guns and considers America his chosen people.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 21:39
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:I want a spinoff action comedy starring a squad of them. As I think someone said earlier itt, or maybe the other one, it would be completely amazing if Media channeled Alex Jones for an episode
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 21:45
|
|
|
I know it's not going to happen, but Supply Side Jesus would have been so perfect for this show http://imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 21:57
|
|
|
Steve Yun posted:I know it's not going to happen, but Supply Side Jesus would have been so perfect for this show I kind of assumed White Jesus would be at least partially this.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 22:12
|
|
|
A thing with the new gods that hasn't been explained (and I think it won't) is that they are not personalities, they are manifestations brought by the indirect devotion. When you watch Netflix, you are worshiping Media; using SA is worship to the Technical Boy and so on and so forth. This is what makes the new gods so "new" and powerful - they are really a New Thing, in the sense that they are not personifications, but rather, emergent entities. Which also could explain why Wednesday said that the old gods gave something back; the new ones don't provide anything per se because they are not expected to. If everyone thought the god of technology should smite the gently caress out of trolls, it would probably do so, but instead, in absence of expectation, it just assume traits of the domain as is instead of actively trying to work with it.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 22:30
|
|
|
Steve Yun posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG-I8UnX1wk The tale of Nunyunnini gives us a lot of expository and thematic information. The story is essentially about a foreign god who shepherds their followers across a great journey, to find a promised land. When at last they arrive, the god acquiesces to the fact that while their people have a future here, they do not - strong in their own land, here their only adherents are a small, desperate tribe; the only way their chosen can survive is if their high priestess is sacrificed to the dominant local god, and her people given to the new god as followers (the 'great price' alluded to in Atsula's vision). This is, presumably, how the conflicts between gods played out in this antique age. If we're to take the short literally (itself another question, as the animated format disconnects it from objective reality and is told from the POV of an unreliable narrator, besides), the gods of prehistory literally walked the earth among their faithful. Tribute and their accompanying boons were exchanged at an extremely personal level, and a god's divine puissance could be measured in the number of bodies that assembled around it. Let's call these the Ancient Gods, to differentiate them from the other general 'factions' presented in the story. Then religion starts getting more organized, populations start expanding, and worship becomes a more indirect affair. Sacrifice is still often made in blood and treasure, but their recipients are more increasingly abstracted as idols, concepts, or strangers at the crossroads. Here we have the Old Gods, as AG presents them to us. Like Nunyunnini, they were brought to this strange new continent and eventually abandoned. Their notions of devotion still appear to be largely based on deeds and offerings, but not in as personal a context as prehistoric deities may have. They crave belief and followers so that they'll once again have a purpose (Anubis and Czernobog), an audience to captivate (Anansi), recognition (The Djinn), or even the more 'old-school' norm of mortals fawning at their feet (Bilquis and Zorya). The New Gods, a they're identified, are even further removed from their worshipers - again, mostly due to the changing structure of human population and communication. None of them appear to desire so much as a conversation with any adherent mortal; to them, all the people are is page views (The Technical Boy), butts in seats (Media), or neatly-indexed files (Mr. World). As to Nunyunnini being an analogue for Wednesday, there's some parallels but also some significant differences. While Nunyunnini essentially sacrificed themselves to realize the dream of their people (Coming to America), Wednesday's origin is almost the exact opposite. His followers didn't carry him to the new world to guide and protect them - they made him in likeness there, out of desperation. And when he finally, perhaps begrudgingly, gave them salvation only after they murder and mutilate each other, they literally discard him on their way out. Nunyunnini's relationship to their followers is inherently compassionate, but we actually have very little inkling what Wednesday's relationship with 'the little people is'. His manifestation as a con man, who only seems to deceive or steal from the working-class (service desk employee, cops, folks making weekend bank deposits) indicates that his view of the common folk is very dim, indeed.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 22:35
|
|
|
dead comedy forums posted:A thing with the new gods that hasn't been explained (and I think it won't) is that they are not personalities, they are manifestations brought by the indirect devotion. When you watch Netflix, you are worshiping Media; using SA is worship to the Technical Boy and so on and so forth. In a way the new gods are smiting their people's enemies, too. At least the Odin guidance satellite and the promise to use it against North Korea implies that, say, the Iraq War news frenzy and subsequent military tech buildup and move in from US corporations would be pretty fuckin great for Media, Mr. World (if that were really who he was), and Technical Boy, and that they can possibly influence such things to happen. They're just sort of detached. They don't care to actively cultivate belief like the old gods have to nowadays because they don't need to. Technical Boy doesn't need priests blessing precision missiles, the american people are just so into spending billions on fighter jets to precision bomb our enemies that he's already got enough sacrifice even though no one knows his name, or at least no one thinks they do. What really makes them different is that they are concepts and not distinct entities. Thor gets nothing from belief in Zeus even though they're fulfilling a lot of the same needs for their ancient worshippers. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 23:19 on May 31, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 31, 2017 23:16
|
|
|
Wow, the Nunyunnini story in the book is pretty different. Atsula is forbidden from entering the New World for blaspheming against Nunyunnini, much like Moses being forbidden from the promised land for disobeying God. The tribe entering America are the first humans there. Nunyunnini isn't some kind-hearted god who sacrifices himself to save his people, he's very matter-of-fact. Go here and you live, stay here and you die. Don't like my commands? Fine, you'll die before you reach the new world. There's no deal with a Buffalo god or anything, the tribe makes all these promises of worshipping Nunyunnini forever, but within a couple generations they neglect him and their kids pick out new gods based on animals they see in America. Nunyunnini dies from neglect, not self-sacrifice.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 08:33
|
|
|
Atsula's story was one of my favorite Coming to America stories in the book. I'm still not sure I like what they did with it in the show. Thematically it does fit in with the rest of the episode though.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 12:50
|
|
|
If they went through with the offer and launched the Odin satellite , wouldn't that have just created a Korean Odin, leaving American Odin still around? Or is it mentioned in the book that the American Gods believe they are the real ones and don't know about the versions in the old countries?
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 14:07
|
|
|
Okay, that morgue scene. Here's the song playing in the morgue. It doesn't show up on Shazam or SoundHound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvAoSikNbsc What is up with the employee there. He's browsing google image for shetland ponies. I wanted to laugh but I wasn't sure why it was so funny.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 17:42
|
|
|
Steve Yun posted:Okay, that morgue scene. I couldn't pick out the song either, though it sounds familiar. My co-worker and I spent about half an hour looking at pictures of hairless cats yesterday, I totally got where morgue guy was coming from
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 17:48
|
|
|
Macdeo Lurjtux posted:If they went through with the offer and launched the Odin satellite , wouldn't that have just created a Korean Odin, leaving American Odin still around? Or is it mentioned in the book that the American Gods believe they are the real ones and don't know about the versions in the old countries? i would imagine the us army would dicksuck about how epic and ftw the missile sattelite is, like they do with all military technology.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 19:22
|
|
|
Steve Yun posted:What is up with the employee there. He's browsing google image for shetland ponies. I wanted to laugh but I wasn't sure why it was so funny. I had a very similar reaction.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 19:36
|
|
|
It's funny because you're expecting something scandalous but nah, guy just likes horses.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 19:45
|
|
|
Normal Adult Human posted:i would imagine the us army would dicksuck about how epic and ftw the missile sattelite is, like they do with all military technology. I thought about that, but if it just gives Wednesday more power in America then it wouldn't exactly work as a way to get him out of the New Gods hair or even exile him as Wednesday claimed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 20:05
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:It's funny because you're expecting something scandalous but nah, guy just likes horses. Exactly. It's a completely ordinary, mundane thing for a person bored at work to be wasting their time on, and there's literally nothing weird about it. If anything, that's exactly why it's funny.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 20:05
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:It's funny because you're expecting something scandalous but nah, guy just likes horses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_orCijfCO-c
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 20:41
|
|
|
Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I thought about that, but if it just gives Wednesday more power in America then it wouldn't exactly work as a way to get him out of the New Gods hair or even exile him as Wednesday claimed. It would have made him a vassal: he gets the worship World/Media provide, rather than trying to gather his own and making trouble. So he gets out of their hair by becoming subservient and living off the dole.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 21:29
|
|
|
Macdeo Lurjtux posted:If they went through with the offer and launched the Odin satellite , wouldn't that have just created a Korean Odin, leaving American Odin still around? Or is it mentioned in the book that the American Gods believe they are the real ones and don't know about the versions in the old countries? It would have created Korean Odin and probably killed American Odin into obscurity. Which is exactly what the new gods wanted. The book isn't clear about the rules but the ending makes it seem like that's how it would work.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 22:35
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:It would have created Korean Odin and probably killed American Odin into obscurity. Which is exactly what the new gods wanted. My understanding: Mr Wednesday would be rebranded as the American Odin, they'd figure out some way to go to war with North Korea and blow them up. North Korea dies. The Odin satellite gets all this praise for being an awesome missile satellite and therefore American Odin gets power again, but subservient to Mr World, Media and Technical Boy since he will be operating as a tool of American globalism and needing Media and Technical Boy for PR. Why would a Korean Odin arise from this?
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 22:45
|
|
|
Steve Yun posted:My understanding: Mr Wednesday would be rebranded as the American Odin, they'd figure out some way to go to war with North Korea and blow them up. North Korea dies. The Odin satellite gets all this praise for being an awesome missile satellite and therefore American Odin gets power again, but subservient to Mr World, Media and Technical Boy since he will be operating as a tool of American globalism and needing Media and Technical Boy for PR. Well, a Korean Odin might arise in the sense that the American Gods-verse Japan might have a Little Boy and Fat Man due to the sheer influence the bomb had on Japanese post-war culture. But yeah, the impression I got is that the New Gods offer was for American Odin to get worship from Americans as a manifestation of American military might, in a manner that is firmly under the control of Media and Technical Boy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 23:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 00:40 |
|
|
Steve Yun posted:My understanding: Mr Wednesday would be rebranded as the American Odin, they'd figure out some way to go to war with North Korea and blow them up. North Korea dies. The Odin satellite gets all this praise for being an awesome missile satellite and therefore American Odin gets power again, but subservient to Mr World, Media and Technical Boy since he will be operating as a tool of American globalism and needing Media and Technical Boy for PR. The atom bomb arguably had a bigger impact on Japanese culture than American culture. I think they wanted him out, because Wednesday calls it "exile". Its not exile unless he has to leave. American worship under the new gods isn't exile. But the way you guys are reading it is valid too.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2017 23:35
|
|