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Combat Pretzel posted:What advantages would TB have over USB3.1? Unless there's way less CPU overhead, I don't see any quick adoption. More stringent cable certification, at the cost of, well, *cost*. USB 3.1 Type C has been a royal clusterfuck.
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Jun 1, 2017 23:49
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Combat Pretzel posted:What advantages would TB have over USB3.1? Unless there's way less CPU overhead, I don't see any quick adoption. Bandwidth and daisy-chaining are the big ones. USB 3.1 is 10Gbps, while TB 3 is 40Gbps, so it's a much more useful protocol when you're talking about using it for monitors (USB 3.1 taps out at 4k@30Hz, for example, while TB3 can in theory push dual 4k@60Hz monitors) or other super-high bandwidth applications. You can daisy-chain up to 6 items off a single port, which again is nice when you're talking monitors or stacks of drives or whatever. As a fun "you'll probably never use it but it's cool" point, as a peer-to-peer protocol, you could theoretically plug two computers together via TB3 ports and get a direct 40Gbps link between them. All that aside, the most obvious use for TB3 is monitors, since it has enough bandwidth to be useful, can carry power, and can daisy chain, potentially allowing people to clean up a lot of the wires mess that lives behind a lot of our systems.
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Jun 2, 2017 00:06
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The 40GBit link interested me in the past, but given all the hoops you had to jump through back then just to get TB3, I ditched the idea. Meanwhile I have 10GbE SFP+ between my workstation and NAS instead.
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Jun 2, 2017 00:49
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I have FireWire audio gear that has sat around for a while now. I was really excited when this news hit the other day. High licensing costs killed that too.
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Jun 2, 2017 00:51
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wait, isnt usb 3.1 type c just a physical layer, and tb a protocol?
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Jun 2, 2017 01:21
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Combat Pretzel posted:The 40GBit link interested me in the past, but given all the hoops you had to jump through back then just to get TB3, I ditched the idea. Meanwhile I have 10GbE SFP+ between my workstation and NAS instead. I was going to suggest Corning's thunderbolt fiber optic cable for long runs, but they're TB2 20Gbps. But you can get 200' cables for only $1000.
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Jun 2, 2017 02:17
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SlayVus posted:I was going to suggest Corning's thunderbolt fiber optic cable for long runs, but they're TB2 20Gbps. But you can get 200' cables for only $1000. How bad is the latency? Could you run one through a wall to a compatible TV with USB attached too? VR-level good? A reliable long-distance single cable would be p. popular for VR, or even just clean PC-free living rooms actually. How about a bit of an armored jacket on it while we're imagining a $1000 cable? wireless VR is Coming Soon™ but it's not there yet Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 2, 2017 02:21
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Paul MaudDib posted:How bad is the latency? Putting TB into the chipset was something Intel should've done years ago if they really wanted TB to take off IMO. As it is now USB3 has had time to mature and get cheaper and it can meet the needs of most people well enough. Even 10Gbe ethernet is starting to approach reasonable prices for the NIC's and NAS's, 10Gbe routers still need to come down lots though. Maybe TB will take off now but I'm not optimistic about it, Firewireitis is tough thing to beat once your stuff is infected with it.
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Jun 2, 2017 03:14
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:Dunno what the latency is for the 100'+ cables but in general TB is going to have much lower latency than USB3 no matter what. OK article on TB vs USB3 here. QDR Infiniband is also approaching affordability (~$50/adapter) if you can afford the data cables. Direct DMA to another PC at 32 gbps should do the trick. 10GbE is a little more expensive per adapter but your per-foot costs are way down, and you can't do DMA. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 2, 2017 03:15
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Paul MaudDib posted:How bad is the latency? Could you run one through a wall to a compatible TV with USB attached too? VR-level good? just lol if you think I'm going to get a scrub-tier $1k cable to carry my VR. I'm going Monster for $2k
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Jun 2, 2017 03:53
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Paul MaudDib posted:How bad is the latency? Could you run one through a wall to a compatible TV with USB attached too? VR-level good? Problem with the fiber optic cable is that both sides must be powered. Since it uses light to carry data and all. So a VR headset would still need a power cable or you're going to carry and 5-10 lbs battery pack on your back.
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Jun 2, 2017 04:11
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SlayVus posted:Problem with the fiber optic cable is that both sides must be powered. Since it uses light to carry data and all. So a VR headset would still need a power cable or you're going to carry and 5-10 lbs battery pack on your back. Unless you know something I don't, that seems like a massive overstatement. VR headsets don't have a whole lot of upstream data flow--positioning updates, sure, but that's more a low-bandwidth/low-latency thing more than something that would keep an optical transceiver turned on all the time. And even if it did, I can't imagine it taking that much power; a lot of the SFF optical adapters are specced out at <750mW at 3.3V, meaning even a standard cellphone battery at 3000mAh would be able to power it for a gently caress-off long time. Obviously you've got whatever other electronics are involved in the headset, too, but the point is that throwing an optical connect on the headset isn't going to be a substantial power load. Though you're right about needing some sort of battery pack (though 5lbs seems way too much--that's more than an entire laptop with an 8+hr battery life weighs), as I imagine the power draw of the screens have to be fairly substantial for a "mobile" device like that.
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Jun 2, 2017 04:51
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Paul MaudDib posted:QDR Infiniband is also approaching affordability (~$50/adapter) if you can afford the data cables. Paul MaudDib posted:10GbE is a little more expensive per adapter but your per-foot costs are way down, and you can't do DMA. And yeah those 10Gbe per foot costs are way down and its not too hard to whip up your own custom cables for in wall running either. Did my whole house with Cat6A a while back. 1000' of in wall rated cable was around $300 and it was surprising easy to do for the most part since I didn't have to deal with many external walls. Biggest issue turned out to be running the drain but that was mostly due to the way the house was built and where I had to put the router. Keystones take longer to do than Cat6/5e but even screwing around, going slow, and watching youtubes I got around 20 drops done in a couple of hours and I'm no pro. 100' Infiniband cables tend to run ~$1K last I looked, and they still seem to going by a quick google (well $1200+ but I didn't look long so not the best price but stiiiill), I don't think it really makes sense to talk about it as an option at all for home or even many prosumer use cases. Server and data center stuff is a different story but Infiniband was pretty much designed for that sort of thing from the get go anyways so that is an of course.
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Jun 2, 2017 05:21
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SlayVus posted:Problem with the fiber optic cable is that both sides must be powered. Since it uses light to carry data and all. So a VR headset would still need a power cable or you're going to carry and 5-10 lbs battery pack on your back. So make it a combined fiber optic + power + charging cable?
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Jun 2, 2017 09:48
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Ika posted:So make it a combined fiber optic + power + charging cable? Somewhere an engineer just woke up early in a cold sweat and doesn't know why.
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Jun 2, 2017 10:00
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Fiber is great for heaps of data but has relatively poor durability/flexibility compared to copper/metal cables= that poo poo is gonna break FAST in a VR rig where you move around a lot. edit:\/\/\/\/\/\/ Is that rule good for static or dynamic stress loads or both? I pretty much never deal with FO so I don't much about it other than "don't loving bend it ever". PC LOAD LETTER fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Jun 2, 2017 |
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Jun 2, 2017 10:13
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:Fiber is great for heaps of data but has relatively poor durability/flexibility compared to copper/metal cables= that poo poo is gonna break FAST in a VR rig where you move around a lot. Rule of thumb: if the curvature exceeds that of a medium sized plate your fibers are gonna bust.
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Jun 2, 2017 10:18
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FWIW the next Vive looks like it'll be wireless in early 2018 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1A9t6J3GME
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Jun 2, 2017 10:40
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Regarding TB3, just keep in mind that 40Gbps is only for cables <=50cm. I thought it was 20cm, but this site says 0.5m. 0.5m (1.65ft) TB 3 (40Gbps) USB-C Cable – Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C Compatible 1m (3.3ft) TB 3 (20Gbps) USB-C Cable – Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C Compatible 2m (6.6ft) TB 3 (20Gbps) USB-C Cable – Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C Compatible Maybe some of the proprietary trickery Apple uses can be used by other vendors, though.
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Jun 2, 2017 12:12
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Ika posted:So make it a combined fiber optic + power + charging cable? If you replace fiber optic with copper you've literally got what TB3 is intended for. Admittedly, I don't think anyone's doing copper TB cables longer than 3m, so you still can't shove the PC into a closet on the other side of the house, but potentially you could do a PC -> optical -> power injector/converter box -> copper -> headset. The converters already exist (they're integrated into the active optical cables already), so it'd just be a case of making a small power-injector box to go along with it. Unsure what it would do to latency, though. Boiled Water posted:Rule of thumb: if the curvature exceeds that of a medium sized plate your fibers are gonna bust. I thought one of the benefits of the latest few classes of TB optical cables was massively increased durability compared to traditional fiber? Some of Corning's stuff advertises "zero bend" cabling and basically says you can tie the stuff in knots without ill effect. I mean, I'd imagine it's never going to be as durable as anything copper (unless you throw a pretty hefty jacket around it), but it would seem the current stuff puts the most likely point of failure back on the connector bits rather than the bulk cable itself.
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Jun 2, 2017 13:12
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyz2gkyIoXI 10C/20T 7900X @ 4,5 Ghz on using a questionable air cooler with a fan leaning against it Cinebench R15: 2419 MT, 198 ST 85°C (assuming that seven segment LED display actually shows the temperature.) A stock 7700K performs about the same in R15 single threaded. i7-6950X @ 4.5 Ghz scored 2327 cb so we're looking at ~4% IPC improvement over Broadwell-E. The guy over at anandtech with other reliable leaks also mentioned Turbo clocks: quote:Core i9-7900X: 4.3/4.3/4.1/4.1/4.1/4.1/4.0/4.0/4.0/4.0 (TB 2.0) / 4.5 (TB 3.0) Not bad for 10 cores. My impression is that overclocking any of these HEDT CPUs will definitely be limited by thermals and require delidding/watercooling
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Jun 2, 2017 17:10
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Boiled Water posted:Rule of thumb: if the curvature exceeds that of a medium sized plate your fibers are gonna bust. bend radius for 50micron is like 5cm so not nearly as bad as it used to be. a fairly stiff pvc shield is probably sufficient for consumer use but I don't really see the point when copper could handle those short runs fine
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Jun 2, 2017 18:21
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Boiled Water posted:Rule of thumb: if the curvature exceeds that of a medium sized plate your fibers are gonna bust.
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Jun 2, 2017 18:55
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Bend insensitive fiber is a thing
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Jun 2, 2017 20:04
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:Fiber is great for heaps of data but has relatively poor durability/flexibility compared to copper/metal cables= that poo poo is gonna break FAST in a VR rig where you move around a lot. DrDork posted:I thought one of the benefits of the latest few classes of TB optical cables was massively increased durability compared to traditional fiber? Some of Corning's stuff advertises "zero bend" cabling and basically says you can tie the stuff in knots without ill effect. I mean, I'd imagine it's never going to be as durable as anything copper (unless you throw a pretty hefty jacket around it), but it would seem the current stuff puts the most likely point of failure back on the connector bits rather than the bulk cable itself. The Linus Tech Tips "optically cabled VR headset" video does indicate that optical cable can be quite durable.
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Jun 2, 2017 20:08
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Saukkis posted:The Linus Tech Tips "optically cabled VR headset" video does indicate that optical cable can be quite durable. Fiber is more durable than copper esp single mode that has been clad correctly Its just marginally more expensive for cable and insanely expensive for the lasers at the ends
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Jun 2, 2017 20:20
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jun 2, 2017 20:35
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The fiber optic thunderbolt cables are ridiculously expensive in part because they have embedded media converters at each end of the cable
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Jun 2, 2017 20:49
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sincx posted:How did Toslink get so cheap/ubiquitous? Crappy laser diode like in a DVD player, doesn't need to blink super fast or with very many colors, so you get the 3.1 mbit/sec toslink for the low low price of like 17 cents. The most modern, high spec example is only 150mbit/sec, which is well within the range allowable with a simple single color red laser diode. Basically trivial to do using stuff that's been around in commodity pricing for decades.
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Jun 2, 2017 21:07
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Methylethylaldehyde posted:Crappy laser diode like in a DVD player, doesn't need to blink super fast or with very many colors, so you get the 3.1 mbit/sec toslink for the low low price of like 17 cents. The most modern, high spec example is only 150mbit/sec, which is well within the range allowable with a simple single color red laser diode. Basically trivial to do using stuff that's been around in commodity pricing for decades. And plastic cable
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Jun 2, 2017 21:07
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Malcolm XML posted:And plastic cable True, but even the fancy glass fiber ones are like $20 or so. The plastic ones are so cheap they're included on even the crappiest tier products.
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Jun 2, 2017 21:13
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Saukkis posted:The Linus Tech Tips "optically cabled VR headset" video does indicate that optical cable can be quite durable. It does seem to have much more durability than other data FO cables from what I've heard of before but calling it "quite durable" is a mistake IMO. edit: Guru3D has some interesting information on the launch socket 2066 i7's and i9's. The thing that stands out to me is that even with water cooling they're saying the mobo venders tend to only get around 4.3Ghz on all cores when overclocking the 8C/16T and 10C/20T parts. The turbo speeds of 4.5Ghz is only for 2 cores aren't even being met, which is hardly bad performance at all of course. But I'd though they'd have done better than that since Sky Lake and Kaby Lake overclock much better than Haswell. Maybe they're heat limited by the cheap rear end IHS Intel is using? Watercooling can't really do a whole lot to fix that by itself. Redoing the IHS with good thermal paste might become a requirement for those chips. Or maybe they just don't overclock very well no matter what you do. PC LOAD LETTER fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Jun 3, 2017 |
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Jun 3, 2017 03:10
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Now if hell would freeze over, Intel would chop 200$ off the 12C one, if the cheap 16C Threadripper pricing would prove true. Given that the X399 mainboards are supposedly expensive as gently caress, you'd probably get a performance equivalent system for the same price then. Assuming the TIM stuff doesn't gently caress that part over, because signs start to point that way.
Combat Pretzel fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Jun 3, 2017 |
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Jun 3, 2017 13:55
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The TIM issue really bothers me because there are already many people complaining that their older CPUs (i.e. i7-4790K) are running much hotter than they used to. More often than not it's due to the TIM between Die and IHS drying out and losing thermal conductivity over time. I've observed similar behaviour in Apple notebooks (rMBP, MBA) where CPUs stopped turboing or started throttling after 3-4 years of use. My 2013 15" rMBP throttled to 1.3 Ghz under load. "Repasting" completely solved the issue and made it run like brand new, pinned to 3.0-3.2 Ghz on all cores. Of course the average user would just go out and buy a new one because the old one feels slow. New gen MBPs have the chips and heatsink attached to the other side of the PCB so one would have to remove the whole logic board to repaste the machine. Planned obsolescence if I've ever seen it. I don't expect SL-X to overclock at all without removing the IHS, so that means I'd have to void the warranty and potentially kill the CPU right of the box.
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Jun 3, 2017 15:32
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lolwat... If you want RAID-1/10 or RAID-5 on that VROC poo poo, you need to buy a dongle to unlock it?
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Jun 4, 2017 00:24
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Jun 4, 2017 01:06
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Intel still doesn't realize that AMD is a threat and that no one wants their lovely softraid when every major OS has a much better softraid implementation nowadays.
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Jun 4, 2017 01:12
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Kazinsal posted:Intel still doesn't realize that AMD is a threat and that no one wants their lovely softraid when every major OS has a much better softraid implementation nowadays. Maybe that's the point: Intel is trying to strongly suggest that you make better choices with your data (and your life in general) and pursue better softRAID options than their own.
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Jun 4, 2017 01:27
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sincx posted:And apparent RAID 1/10 is $99 and RAID 5 is $199 or $299. It almost feels like intel finally lost the plot due to no competition and thought they could start building a walled garden of hardware and try to fence people in
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Jun 4, 2017 01:41
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Weren't people bitching that they were paying for the useless gpu on die and now Intel fuses it off and hands the tap over people bitch? (kbl-x is stupid but not because Intel didn't listen) X299 is a clusterfuck long live threadripper I guess
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Jun 4, 2017 01:57
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