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Dr. Tim Whatley posted:I loved that Kevin's heart thing proved there was nothing supernatural in the show at all.
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Jun 5, 2017 23:54
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JethroMcB posted:Did you read the big Vulture piece? It sounds like HBO did give them a relatively healthy budget, all things considered (Nora's wig in the finale cost $10k, the LADR machine set was $100k, they built all of Grace's ranch exclusively for the production and had to dismantle it when they were done, etc.) Probably could have saved some if they didn't shoot in Australia, but I think that was worth it for the change of scenery. I was going off an article earlier in the season. http://www.vulture.com/2017/04/leftovers-theme-song-why-its-different-for-every-episode.html quote:“The pragmatic reality was that there was no money to do a new opening title sequence — we did two less episodes [this season],” Lindelof said, indicating that budget considerations were already tight going into the final season. Feels like if you had to drop a bunch of series regulars, cut 2 episodes, and couldn't afford a new intro, maybe the budget wasn't as big as it should have been.
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Jun 6, 2017 00:11
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I was pretty ambiguous on the episode until the speech at the end. When she said the part about the other world losing 98% and her family being the lucky ones, that hit me pretty hard, because regardless of whether it happened or not, it's definitely true (unless they all died horribly and painfully I guess). Overall I missed a lot of the other parts of the show that wasn't just Kevin and Nora, but still a very daring, satisfying end to the show, it's definitely up there as some of the best tv ever for me.
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Jun 6, 2017 00:16
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The Dave posted:1. The people that went over got what they wanted, and didn't feel like they had to try and come back. #1 is probably the best counter-argument, and I've been thinking about it since watching the episode. They didn't send a ton of people through, just those who had no attachment left to the 98% world and wanted to go to their departed. So of course they wouldn't come back; they all left specifically for that purpose, not to investigate. #2 has some really huge implications. Immediately there'd be infrastructure collapse without enough people to maintain it. Nuclear plant meltdowns, plane crashes, derailments, sewer system issues, total gridlock, farms totally breaking down, etc. There was a show that aired a while back (pre-Leftovers) on Discovery or some channel like that which explored what would happen if 100% of all people disappeared one day. Reduce that to 98% and most of that probably still happens, but the 2% left would have to scramble to prevent disasters everywhere or the world would basically be hosed, so the first few months/years would be a TON of damage control. Meanwhile everyone's all screwed up in the head from nearly everyone they cared about disappearing, and the town of Jarden, Texas is a sudden ghost town instead of "Miracle". Good luck maintaining order and not giving up after that. Those 2% remaining would probably see a lot more suicides and reckless behavior per capita than the 98% world. On the plus side, overpopulation won't be an issue for thousands of years, resources are in abundance, carbon emissions are way down, and skilled labor isn't just valuable - it's absolutely vital. I'd imagine most countries would break down and form a central world government, considering most world leaders and their cabinets would be gone too. Who's the US president in the line of succession? It'd be like Battlestar Galactica where everyone was killed in the initial attack so the Secretary of Education became next in line. Come to think of it, replacing departure with death, that's basically what BSG was about. There really is a lot of material to mine in this concept.
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Jun 6, 2017 00:25
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That was a really good ending, the show ended up being a reverse Lost lol
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Jun 6, 2017 00:27
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I wonder if in the other world the town of Jarden has some kind of special meaning because literally everybody disappeared from it.
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Jun 6, 2017 01:40
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What would be Nora's motivation for lying about crossing over and then back again? I mean in a setting where people spontaneously popped into a different reality and one character has been to the afterlife twice I don't think 'it's a logistical impossibility because of my bullet point list' is really the right way to approach it.
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Jun 6, 2017 02:32
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Pocket Billiards posted:What would be Nora's motivation for lying about crossing over and then back again? Kevin was right that they needed a lie in order to reconnect and move forward after so long apart, but his wasn't the right lie. Her lie (if it was a lie) allowed her to express the truth, while pushing past the questions of why she didn't go to Matt's funeral, or why she didn't contact Kevin, or why she didn't love her children enough to do absolutely anything to find them again. Even if she didn't literally cross over to the other side she was right that if she did somehow find her kids surviving together after seven years they would have already moved on. Believing that they could be some place happy, even without her, could let her finally let go. When I first watched the episode I didn't really question her story at all, except for feeling surprised that the writers would go there (to the question of where the departures went) at all. But in retrospect so much of the episode is themed around lying, from the nun's sexcapades to Nora saying "I never lie" at the beginning which itself is a huge lie. That entire plotline was based on the lie she told herself and everyone else, that she planned to expose the LADR project as a fraud. And Laurie being alive after an entire episode leading up to her implied suicide is, to me, a clue not to trust what we don't actually see. We don't actually see Nora's story. Lord Krangdar fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 02:46
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I think she was lying, but I did find it weird that she included a bunch of specific details about her journey that weren't at all required to tell the story (if you were making it up).
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Jun 6, 2017 02:56
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Everyone who thinks she was lying are making good points. I'm still going to believe she was telling the truth though because that makes a better story  The thing I like most about this ending is that it is a good ending whether she was lying or not. Both are equally satisfying to me, but if I knew which it was for sure it would be less satisfying.
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Jun 6, 2017 03:10
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Lord Krangdar posted:But in retrospect so much of the episode is themed around lying, from the nun's sexcapades to Nora saying "I never lie" at the beginning which itself is a huge lie. For a second in that confrontation I thought the nun was going to say "Nah, we just did mouth and hand stuff."
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Jun 6, 2017 03:13
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I thought for sure Kevin had some operation or got his mind wiped to get away from the whole messianic label but really liked how the episode played out. The moment of confusion and not knowing if you were watching a parallel world or what was fun. whether Nora was lying or not, the whole story was a great flip on the show's perspective and pretty devastating. To think the people on the other side suffered a greater lost but moved on from it, while the loss here was less overall but the world is still messed up. ~it turns out we were the leftovers the whole time~ Great ending, definitely one of the best. Canadian Surf Club fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 03:18
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Eccleston is so loving good in this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtsKnZNLFWA
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Jun 6, 2017 03:22
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Jose Valasquez posted:Everyone who thinks she was lying are making good points. I'm okay with believing Nora's story and am just going with it and ending it there.
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Jun 6, 2017 03:22
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Pocket Billiards posted:What would be Nora's motivation for lying about crossing over and then back again?
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Jun 6, 2017 03:31
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oliwan posted:Just saw it and lmao what a joke. Hi I'm a loving dumbass watched a show I hated for multiple episode so I could complain on an Internet forum for REASONS (also I have a PhD in literature [I'm better than you and my opinions are more valid])
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Jun 6, 2017 03:51
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Would she really leave her kids to come back to this universe and live as a hermit? I mean I get her husband moved on but I'm sure her kids would like to have her around. That's why it feels like a lie to me.
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Jun 6, 2017 03:58
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The Dave posted:Eccleston is so loving good in this. He was a really great gecko 
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Jun 6, 2017 04:31
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Jose Valasquez posted:Both are equally satisfying to me, but if I knew which it was for sure it would be less satisfying. There's a third possibility! She could have been lying but still by chance be right about where the departures went and how her kids are doing.
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Jun 6, 2017 06:48
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fullroundaction posted:I think she was lying, but I did find it weird that she included a bunch of specific details about her journey that weren't at all required to tell the story (if you were making it up). Adding in extra details is a thing people do when they're lying though. See: the poo poo that didn't happen thread.
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Jun 6, 2017 07:05
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I don't think there's any way that doctor wouldn't have had the idea or wherewithal to build the reverse machine in however many years he'd been there. I also think the fact that she was there sending pigeons and mentioning that they don't fly very far is a callback to the false promises of that original pigeon cult
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Jun 6, 2017 07:27
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Boris Galerkin posted:Adding in extra details is a thing people do when they're lying though. See: the poo poo that didn't happen thread. That and looking over to the side and around the room when they're thinking up the next details, which she was also doing.
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Jun 6, 2017 07:28
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Boris Galerkin posted:Adding in extra details is a thing people do when they're lying though. See: the poo poo that didn't happen thread. Nora: So I looked up the doctor, and that doctor's name... was Albert Einstein.
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Jun 6, 2017 07:54
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All textual evidence points to Nora lying - it never even crossed my mind that she was telling the truth. The nun literally goes "IT MAKES FOR A BETTER STORY." A reading in which the story is "true" in the sense that it actually happened, is insincere. This besides the fact that Nora's story makes no sense (it's far too easy a cop out, and if it were true, people would have gone back and forth). The whole point is that it's such an absurd story, but Kevin still "believes" her. edit: also, the episode is literally called 'the book of Nora' oliwan fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 10:53
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:Nora: So I looked up the doctor, and that doctor's name... was Albert Einstein. The Leftovers Season 3: And Everyone Stood Up and Clapped
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Jun 6, 2017 11:04
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I mean, in a kind reading the finale (and by extension, the season) is a postmodern meditation on truth, fiction and the nature of storytelling, but ehhh, it's no Paul Auster.
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Jun 6, 2017 11:47
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sticklefifer posted:The Leftovers Season 3: And Everyone Stood Up and Clapped And that goat was a marine bear.
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Jun 6, 2017 12:43
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:I think The Leftovers....might be the best show HBO has ever produced? It's definitely all time top three overall. Swap "humanity" for HBO, go with "is" instead of might be, and I'd agree.
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Jun 6, 2017 12:57
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Bulky Bartokomous posted:Swap "humanity" for HBO, go with "is" instead of might be, and I'd agree. It's no paul auster 
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Jun 6, 2017 13:24
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The power of The Leftovers finale, in addition to being wondrous, is that most "ambiguous" endings are clearly arced, written, and shot so there's only one clearly "correct" answer (The Sopranos, Tony clearly lives; Inception, he's in the real world; Blade Runner, Deckard's clearly a Replicant), but for this series "Nora is lying" and "Nora is telling the truth" are two equally correct and valid interpretations for different reasons, on top of more in-between interpretations (it didn't literally happen to Nora but she's being emotionally honest/she believes that it happened). Ambiguity is really, really hard to write, especially ambiguity-as-ending, because writer perception and interpretation usually influences the perspective taken at least subconsciously, so giving at least three valid interpretations of the ending is really, really impressive.
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Jun 6, 2017 15:55
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lol dude, the finale isn't even trying to go for ambiguity -- it's super obvious that Nora's is lying, that's the whole point, and it makes the finale so much better for it. The thematics, the plot, the whole narrative works towards this climactic scene with Nora's story, and none of it works if you take Nora's story at face value. If they wanted to make it ambiguous, they would've at least filmed or showed part of the story she tells. "Nora went to the other place and came back" is going to be the new "they were all dead all along" of retarded interpretations. edit: I skipped this post but yeah it's good: Lord Krangdar posted:Kevin was right that they needed a lie in order to reconnect and move forward after so long apart, but his wasn't the right lie. Her lie (if it was a lie) allowed her to express the truth, while pushing past the questions of why she didn't go to Matt's funeral, or why she didn't contact Kevin, or why she didn't love her children enough to do absolutely anything to find them again. Even if she didn't literally cross over to the other side she was right that if she did somehow find her kids surviving together after seven years they would have already moved on. Believing that they could be some place happy, even without her, could let her finally let go. oliwan fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 16:24
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Inception, he's in the real world; Blade Runner, Deckard's clearly a Replicant
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Jun 6, 2017 16:29
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oliwan posted:I mean, in a kind reading the finale (and by extension, the season) is a postmodern meditation on truth, fiction and the nature of storytelling, but ehhh, it's no Paul Auster. oliwan posted:lol dude, the finale isn't even trying to go for ambiguity -- it's super obvious that Nora's is lying, that's the whole point, and it makes the finale so much better for it. The thematics, the plot, the whole narrative works towards this climactic scene with Nora's story, and none of it works if you take Nora's story at face value. If they wanted to make it ambiguous, they would've at least filmed or showed part of the story she tells. You suck
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Jun 6, 2017 16:29
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Raxivace posted:Neither of those things are clear in those movies. No, especially not in the director's cut of Blade Runner.
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Jun 6, 2017 16:31
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If Nora lied then what did Matt say to everyone? There is no way he could have kept that a secret for so long
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Jun 6, 2017 16:39
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Lindlof wanted to film Nora's slide but couldn't fit it into the budget
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Jun 6, 2017 16:39
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Poppyseed Poundcake posted:If Nora lied then what did Matt say to everyone? There is no way he could have kept that a secret for so long E: never mind oliwan fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 16:44
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This was a great ride and a great thread. Oliwan I hope you continue to find TV shows you find so moronic and poorly written. I'm sure for an individual with such a refined palate and discriminating tastes you will have no difficulties in that regard. It clearly gives you great joy. Keep up the good fight against peasants like us. Maybe if we are lucky we can someday enjoy your fiction when people recognize true talent like yours and abandon phonies and hacks like Lindelof and Perrota.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:05
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It makes no sense that it's real. Imagine you're a respected professor and scientist. You think you've figured out the physics for why 2% of the population just disappeared and then you secure funding somehow to build a machine using your research. You decide to test it out personally and poof you go. Now let's assume it's real and you arrive in another world, another reality. Your first thought should rightly be "holy poo poo, it worked." Your next thoughts should be: "I need to do more tests. Where am I? Can I go back? How is this possible? How can I explain this? Can I take things back with me?" The fact that this professor seemingly just farted around in this world that lost 98% of its population, knowing full well that he just came from a place that lost 2% of the population, and hasn't done fuckall to understand this better or build another machine to test out things like "can I send a message across" is just not really acceptable to me.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:10
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That was loving beautiful. Yeah, I choose to believe Nora. Hearing that the original plan was to film her adventure lends credence to it in my mind. Maybe she lied but I don't care, it's a nicer story. I loved this show. I loved the finale. The thread was... eh okay. That PhD poster will probably never understand that even if he's 100% honest about how much he's disliking this show, he's still a troll, so I don't know why anyone keeps saying it. But now I am too so whatever. That episode was just lovely and I feel fulfilled by the ending.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:13
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