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TBeats posted:(They also offered to pay him for what he already did.) Okay, that's a fair point. He could have taken the money and gone to Saul Goodman YOU BELONG ON TV another small business owner in ABQ.
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Jun 6, 2017 13:36
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gently caress chuck, absolute piece of poo poo rear end hole, hope he rots in hell
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Jun 6, 2017 13:51
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Pepe Silvia Browne posted:In that scenario, what are you giving me for free? Because Jimmy gave those guys a commercial and airtime for free already. If I eat a free sample at Costco and like it, should I buy a 30-pack of the product? If I take a free week of spotify premium should I agree to pay for a year of it?
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Jun 6, 2017 13:53
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:If I eat a free sample at Costco and like it, should I buy a 30-pack of the product? If I take a free week of spotify premium should I agree to pay for a year of it? In Costco's case, yes
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Jun 6, 2017 13:56
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:If I eat a free sample at Costco and agree beforehand to buy a 30-pack of the product if like it, should I buy a 30-pack of the product after I have eaten it and admitted to liking it? FTFY. And again, you're acting as if the only type of obligation that exists is a legal one. You could agree to that with the free sample giver, eat the sample, and then walk away. You're legally allowed to do so. Just don't be surprised when you piss off the sample giver working on commission that you just hustled.
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Jun 6, 2017 14:02
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Pepe Silvia Browne posted:FTFY. And again, you're acting as if the only type of obligation that exists is a legal one. You could agree to that with the free sample giver, eat the sample, and then walk away. You're legally allowed to do so. Just don't be surprised when you piss off the sample giver working on commission that you just hustled. You're not obligated to continue getting ripped off if you didn't sign anything.
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Jun 6, 2017 14:04
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I'm a firm believer that verbal agreements should be honored, but if you're running a business or are a lawyer you better get everything in writing.
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Jun 6, 2017 14:12
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TBeats posted:You're not obligated to continue getting ripped off if you didn't sign anything. "Continue" implies that they were already ripped off somehow. They got a free commercial, free airtime, and saw an increase in business. The only person who's gotten ripped off at that point is Jimmy. It's not like they're getting a "rare" JFK half-dollar that turns out to only be worth 50-cents. They got the product that they were expecting to get AND were happy with it. Are they overpaying? Sure, but I'm not realistically sure by how much after they go to the trouble of hiring their own UNM film students and organizing the shoot.
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Jun 6, 2017 14:12
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Verbal agreements between 2 businesses are usually legally binding. Why jimmy didn't press that is unexplained.
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Jun 6, 2017 14:13
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Pepe Silvia Browne posted:"Continue" implies that they were already ripped off somehow. They got a free commercial, free airtime, and saw an increase in business. The only person who's gotten ripped off at that point is Jimmy. It's not like they're getting a "rare" JFK half-dollar that turns out to only be worth 50-cents. They got the product that they were expecting to get AND were happy with it. Are they overpaying? Sure, but I'm not realistically sure by how much after they go to the trouble of hiring their own UNM film students and organizing the shoot. They offered to pay for that free stuff. You aren't obligated to start getting ripped off either. Don't be pedantic. Just because I do something nice for you doesn't give me free reign to rip you off just because you started out ignorant.
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Jun 6, 2017 14:15
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TBeats posted:They offered to pay for that free stuff. I'm not being pedantic, I'm trying to get you to understand where I'm coming from. And I already admitted that them offering to pay for the original commercial was a fair point. My point is this: Don't agree to a deal if you're not prepared to follow through with it. Because there might be consequences, legal or otherwise, from breaking that agreement. Keeping one's word is just a good practice in general. If you don't know all the details, don't agree to it. If it seems too good to be true, don't agree to it. I'm not saying that Jimmy is in "the right" by Slip-and-Falling them or even when upselling them on the Elite Package. But can you see how they might be in "the wrong" by refusing or trying to change the deal after they already agreed to it? Pepe Silvia Browne fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 14:18
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TBeats posted:(They also offered to pay him for what he already did.) My recollection is that they rescinded the offer when Jimmy explained to them that Saul Goodman Productions owned the commercial instead of them (meaning they couldn't just steal his work and air it directly.) In this situation the brothers are being capitalists of the stupid variety, of course it should be reasonable for the production crew and director are going to need to take a cut to justify their labor. The show has established that Jimmy has a talent for making memorable and effective ads, and this skill should be compensated for its value. However, Jimmy has a used car salesman air about him while trying to upsell them, so it's not unreasonable for them to assume that the 6500 is a bit of a ripoff. If Jimmy hadn't slipped, however, they probably would have found out that wrangling some film students to make an ad on your own is a little more difficult than Jimmy makes it look. Of course, the correct thing for Jimmy to do was to walk away instead of taking another shortcut. e: on the whole 'binding vs nonbinding verbal contract' thing, even if you took it as binding the agreement was "if you're impressed you'll sign on for the whole package" and the brothers could easily say "look, we're somewhat impressed but not $6500 dollars impressed". FreeKillB fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 14:22
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FreeKillB posted:My recollection is that they rescinded the offer when Jimmy explained to them that Saul Goodman Productions owned the commercial instead of them (meaning they couldn't just steal his work and air it directly.) Okay. Semantics. They offered to BUY the work he already did. Sheesh. They offered him compensation for the work he did. They didn't want to get ripped off. When he wouldn't budge, they said they would do it themselves. They were pretty fair through the whole thing even if they were jerks about it. I know we all like Saul, but he's most definitely the bad guy here. boop the snoot fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 14:23
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Their offer only covered the raw cost of airtime and covered absolutely nothing in the way of production expenses or labor costs. It's better than nothing perhaps in the half a loaf sense but it's still a pittance, ESPECIALLY if you interpret it as them paying him means that they have perpetual distribution rights to the commercial. (In the conversation they seem to think they already have these rights, and they immediately revoke their offer when Jimmy corrects them.) Saul is definitely not the bad guy here, up to the moment he decides to pull a Slipping Jimmy. e:VVV I agree that they're under absolutely no obligation to give Jimmy further business on his terms. However, Jimmy did put his talent and time into creating that ad for them, and the entire conversation shows that they don't really consider his creative input to be valuable at all. This doesn't mean they're committing fraud, but they are assholes. This is roughly analogous to the situation of artists working for 'exposure' instead of for an appropriate compensation. FreeKillB fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 14:32
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If you think the guitar dudes were morally obligated to agree to Jimmy's ripoff then I hope to god you're either in jail or never get to run a business or be responsible for anyone. They were dumb to fall for the initial lure but they're neither morally or legally on the hook to buy what he's selling. If your product can be shown to be a scam via cursory 2003 googling then it's a goddam scam. They were skeptical, gave him a chance, and remained skeptical. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 14:34
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:If I eat a free sample at Costco and like it, should I buy a 30-pack of the product? If I take a free week of spotify premium should I agree to pay for a year of it? If someone comes to you offering a service for free on the proviso that you pay them a finders fee if it works, you owe them a loving finders fee when it turns out to be fantastic. On top of that guitar store dickheads only offer to pay for the AIRTIME for the first commercial. Jimmy's time as director/producer, the crew that had to get paid, not to mention all that equipment rental, is apparently worthless in your bizarro reality. You did something like this to someone in real life, didn't you?
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Jun 6, 2017 14:39
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hiddenmovement posted:If someone comes to you offering a service for free on the proviso that you pay them a finders fee if it works, you owe them a loving finders fee when it turns out to be fantastic. What qualifies "it works"? They saw what Jimmy did, did their research, and decided that it wasn't worth the price he was charging. Jimmy McGill the character is aware that he's a huckster, that's one of the driving forces behind the show. He cons people and he likes it, but is also a pretty good guy otherwise. He lies to clients on the phone. He lies by omission. He's not scum of the earth but he's not someone you'd want to do business with. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 14:43
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No, they realized they had him over a barrel and could gently caress him.quote:What qualifies "it works"? I dunno buddy, that depends what your definition of 'is' is. But for reals, you don't tip do you?
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Jun 6, 2017 14:45
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hiddenmovement posted:No, they realized they had him over a barrel and could gently caress him. I literally work for tips 
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Jun 6, 2017 14:46
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:What qualifies "it works"? The fact that they willingly admit that it's brought in more business and that customers are mentioning the commercial. The show would not have had the characters explicitly state these things if the audience wasn't meant to take away the point that "the commercial Jimmy made worked." E: This is an important point too: FreeKillB posted:However, Jimmy did put his talent and time into creating that ad for them, and the entire conversation shows that they don't really consider his creative input to be valuable at all. This doesn't mean they're committing fraud, but they are assholes. This is roughly analogous to the situation of artists working for 'exposure' instead of for an appropriate compensation. Pepe Silvia Browne fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 14:47
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Pepe Silvia Browne posted:The fact that they willingly admit that it's brought in more business and that customers are mentioning the commercial. The show would not have had the characters explicitly state these things if the audience wasn't meant to take away the point that "the commercial Jimmy made worked." Did it bring in enough business to make 6 more one-time commercials according to Jimmy's shady proposition? You can declare a store-wide BOGO sale and declare it a success because people come in, that doesn't mean it helps the business or the people working there. This kinda reminds me of Shameless. Every main character is kind of an rear end in a top hat but they're still likeable, because everyone has motivations to do what they do and everyone has lines they will or won't cross, for whatever reason. That's what makes compelling characters. They're grey. You can side with Jimmy and still think he needs to stop pulling cons. Kim does. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 14:48
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My read is that they thought that Jimmy's 'elite package' was probably going to be worth it up to the second that they called the station and discovered the cost of airtime, at which point they turned on Jimmy on a dime.
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Jun 6, 2017 14:51
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I'm glad someone in the show brought up the insanity of making 7 separate commercials. I get that Jimmy wanted to get rid of his airtime really quickly, but he would have been much better off with finding 7 separate businesses, shooting one commercial, giving them one free airing in his slot, and then setting them up with the station to buy more airtime. That's a lot less shady than "Ok, now we shoot 7 more commercials and air each one exactly one time for no reason."
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Jun 6, 2017 15:07
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Cojawfee posted:I'm glad someone in the show brought up the insanity of making 7 separate commercials. I get that Jimmy wanted to get rid of his airtime really quickly, but he would have been much better off with finding 7 separate businesses, shooting one commercial, giving them one free airing in his slot, and then setting them up with the station to buy more airtime. That's a lot less shady than "Ok, now we shoot 7 more commercials and air each one exactly one time for no reason." Yeah, I really didn't understand this either. He has hustle and a legit skill for making effective commercials. Instead, he could have found 6 or maybe even 5 businesses willing to pay and charged something like $1,200 for a commercial, one free air, and rights to do whatever they want with the commercial after that. Seems reasonable to me, especially if he has a couple positive testimonials and completed commercials to shop around town. The music store bros. vs. Jimmy argument is getting a bit tired, but fwiw I totally agree that the brothers were being just as lovely as Jimmy, if not more so. His production team, script writing, directing, and production are worth nothing, even when the results have been proven?? gently caress you both identically.
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Jun 6, 2017 15:15
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timp posted:Yeah, I really didn't understand this either. He has hustle and a legit skill for making effective commercials. Instead, he could have found 6 or maybe even 5 businesses willing to pay and charged something like $1,200 for a commercial, one free air, and rights to do whatever they want with the commercial after that. Seems reasonable to me, especially if he has a couple positive testimonials and completed commercials to shop around town. They (his team and skills) are worth something, but lose value when they do a cursory examination and realize he's a con artist. He's selling a "crew" and instead is paying students under the table. He's obfuscating how hard it is to buy air time and pretending to offer a huge bargain. He's passing off last-minute, questionable university studio work as having a professional editing team. He's, at best, lying by omission. And when they refuse he scams them harder. A "nigerian prince" who's really good at playing stocks and is related to the last sultan of sokoto is still a scam artist.
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Jun 6, 2017 15:24
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timp posted:The music store bros. vs. Jimmy argument is getting a bit tired Agreed, let's get back to talking about how loving sick Nacho's pill bottle tossing skills are. (Seriously though, that scene was amazing from start to finish and Nacho has officially graduated from Mike's school of elaborate schemes)
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Jun 6, 2017 15:25
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I can't wait to hear Vince Gilligan talk about how beautiful the pill bottle shot was. The DP, bless his heart, he's the best in the biz I tell you. And the wonderful people who own that Michoacana, truly the most welcoming people of all time.
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Jun 6, 2017 15:34
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hiddenmovement posted:Plus, it's the insurance for one man, not the entire firm, and he's not been hit with a malpractice suit or a conduct charge by the bar, so the grounds the insurer has to ramp the premiums up on a long time customer with a flawless record seems pretty shakey. Even if they do ramp the premiums up, so what? Just eat it, he's rich as hell. The sneak peak for next week is a meeting between Hamlin, Chuck, and the insurance company. They want to double the premiums on every lawyer in the firm. The fight between Chuck and Jimmy is going to end up taking down all of HHM 
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Jun 6, 2017 15:42
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Cojawfee posted:I can't wait to hear Vince Gilligan talk about how beautiful the pill bottle shot was. The DP, bless his heart, he's the best in the biz I tell you. And the wonderful people who own that Michoacana, truly the most welcoming people of all time. And, y'know, Mark Margolis is just the sweetest guy.
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Jun 6, 2017 15:46
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If they even get to that scene after spending 45 minutes talking to the caterer about their job or whatever.
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Jun 6, 2017 15:58
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One handy little detail in this episode that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the revelation in the flashback that Jimmy's "stealing from the till" that got Chuck so worked up was an Indian penny here and a buffalo nickel there as opposed to some sort of business/family-destroying thievery. Jimmy's not innocent, but his aw shucks gee whiz dad is more to blame than he is. Of course he could've just been bullshitting Marco or whatever but I saw as a really nice, subtle resolution of an uncertain plot point. loving amazing episode. Tree Dude posted:If they even get to that scene after spending 45 minutes talking to the caterer about their job or whatever. I thought that stuff with the casting director a couple of weeks ago was really interesting but to each their own. Karmine fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Jun 6, 2017 |
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Jun 6, 2017 16:19
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Karmine posted:One handy little detail in this episode that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the revelation in the flashback that Jimmy's "stealing from the till" that got Chuck so worked up was an Indian penny here and a buffalo nickel there as opposed to some sort of business/family-destroying thievery. Jimmy's not innocent, but his aw shucks gee whiz dad is more to blame than he is. He's previously been shown to finch whole bills?
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Jun 6, 2017 16:26
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:He's previously been shown to finch whole bills? I don't remember that but if so fair enough nevermind
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Jun 6, 2017 16:27
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idgi
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Jun 6, 2017 17:38
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I'll have to go back to be sure but I think when we do see him take bills from the til it seemed more a reaction to his Dad's tendency to be bullied. More of a punishment to his dad then Jimmy stealing for his own benefit. I could be recalling that incorrectly and it's certainly possible there are other times he had sticky fingers but I thought it was a good way to show Jimmy's moral compass from a young age.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:39
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That pill switching scene was tense as gently caress. I was afraid that they would keep bringing people in to interrupt Nacho, but thankfully it was just that one bearded dude. I wonder if it turns out that the cook noticed something, but he seems to be part of the ambiance rather than a character that can affect the plot.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:42
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ChesterJT posted:idgi That's the Gene's shoebox of relics from his old life as Saul from the first episode. It's the same Band-Aid tin he was keeping the coins in that we saw in this episode.
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Jun 6, 2017 17:42
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Is the cook part of the cartel, or is he more like the laundry workers? (Aware of what goes on, but not involved aside from being discreet workers?)
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Jun 6, 2017 17:57
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Good eye, really cool.
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Jun 6, 2017 18:24
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maskenfreiheit posted:Is the cook part of the cartel, or is he more like the laundry workers? (Aware of what goes on, but not involved aside from being discreet workers?) We don't know, but there's also the third option of him being strongarmed into it like Hector wants to do to Nacho's dad. As minor a character as he is, it's a question worth asking. Christ for all I know he could be an undercover cop. I'm now weirdly hoping that he becomes a pivotal part of some sort of storyline or plot twist because we know nothing about him.
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Jun 6, 2017 18:35
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