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aware of dog posted:Generally it seems that when Americans talk about Socialism what they really mean Nordic-style generous welfare programs and policies, not like, state ownership of the means of production. yeah when americans say socialism they mean social democracy. sanders is a new deal democrat.
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Jun 9, 2017 15:54
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Yeah but even social democracy is, like, universal. The NHS doesn't have a sign on the door that says no blacks no irish.
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Jun 9, 2017 15:55
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah but even social democracy is, like, universal. The NHS doesn't have a sign on the door that says no blacks no irish. Again, there's piles of tries in the US to create a social democratic system that excludes minorities. That's half the point of the original New Deal, which gave scraps to decent people and lots of make-work to disposable whites. And shockingly, you saw support for social democracy disappear among these people as soon as the system got extended to actually deserving people. It's only come back into vogue for them now that their tenuous position on the economic ladder is affected again. I don't see why this is hard for you to understand. UKIP is basically the same thing in the UK.
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Jun 9, 2017 16:04
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah but even social democracy is, like, universal. The NHS doesn't have a sign on the door that says no blacks no irish. Remember that the alt-right literally wants to create a white ethnostate. Richard Spencer wants a  peaceful ethnic cleansing of the country. It's not just that they don't want to share government benefits with non-whites, they want a nation without non-whites period.E: ^^^ also that
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Jun 9, 2017 16:05
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah but even social democracy is, like, universal. The NHS doesn't have a sign on the door that says no blacks no irish. the new deal left black people behind. it's why affirmative action is necessary.
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Jun 9, 2017 16:07
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rkajdi posted:Again, there's piles of tries in the US to create a social democratic system that excludes minorities. That's half the point of the original New Deal, which gave scraps to decent people and lots of make-work to disposable whites. And shockingly, you saw support for social democracy disappear among these people as soon as the system got extended to actually deserving people. It's only come back into vogue for them now that their tenuous position on the economic ladder is affected again. UKIP are libertarian nutters with a xenophobic bent. I suppose the BNP might theoretically have been that but they're also literal nazis so I wouldn't really call them socialist because I assume their socialism is just a front for fascism. It's just... it's really hard for me to understand the use of the word socialism or social democracy or anything like that because no implementation of those I've experienced has come with the rider "except no black people". They're explicitly universalist because that's the motivation that created them, they were created in response to internationalist communist agitation as an appeasement. The words just mean really different things to me I guess. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jun 9, 2017 |
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Jun 9, 2017 16:07
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OwlFancier posted:UKIP are libertarian nutters with a xenophobic bent. You are right, I confused the two in my head. BNP is what I meant. And I actually wouldn't doubt they'd be all about helping give the EDL-types and ultras a leg up in the economy, since that's their literal voter base. Nationalist Socialism is exactly what fascism is. And I'm not saying it as a knock on Socialism, since there's a shot at having a decent society out of it so long as it doesn't end up being some White Worker's Paradise socially conservative hellhole.
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Jun 9, 2017 16:14
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rkajdi posted:You are right, I confused the two in my head. BNP is what I meant. And I actually wouldn't doubt they'd be all about helping give the EDL-types and ultras a leg up in the economy, since that's their literal voter base. Nationalist Socialism is exactly what fascism is. And I'm not saying it as a knock on Socialism, since there's a shot at having a decent society out of it so long as it doesn't end up being some White Worker's Paradise socially conservative hellhole. Ehhhhh, I dunno about that. Fascism has not historically been especially socialist. There was socialist rhetoric employed in the early days of the Nazis but they didn't actually act on it, eventually it just became plain old autocracy. That's part of why I get confused, nazism and socialism aren't really related, socialism doesn't have to be autocratic and nazism isn't at all bound to being socialist. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Jun 9, 2017 |
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Jun 9, 2017 16:17
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Thunderf00t is apparently a good example of someone with Left Wing or at least Centrist economic views who is also very obviously against feminism and social justice. It's what I've heard, anyway. I know he hates Trump and was against Brexit. Pissed off a ton of his fanbase.
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Jun 9, 2017 16:22
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These people don't want actually socialism. They just want the spoils of getting on the ground floor of a rising autocratic party
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Jun 9, 2017 16:24
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OwlFancier posted:Ehhhhh, I dunno about that. Fascism has not historically been especially socialist. There was socialist rhetoric employed in the early days of the Nazis but they didn't actually act on it, eventually it just became plain old autocracy. If they'd won instead of the Hitler faction then Nazi Germany would have been a very different place in terms of economics and militarism, but they'd still have the 'National Rebirth' which would not work out well if you were gay or Jewish or made 'degenerate art'. It would have probably ended up more like the Arab Socialist Ba'ath states or how some of the African Popular Socialist states ended up. And I think that's the key thing to bear in mind, you can be a socialist economically and still be a complete dick. 
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Jun 9, 2017 16:31
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rkajdi posted:The actual answer there is most of the people complaining about X Studies classes in the US never had actually attended one. I've only had one class that could fit in that category (an honors class on Islam) was pretty non-offensive and covered some basic stuff about early history and thinkers in the Islamic world. In the cases where I've seen this it tends to be 90% white fragility from college students getting these ideas thrown at them for the first time and maybe 10% coming from having lovely professors in the 101 classes that do have some unfortunate personal hang-ups that they are trying to express through their ideology (it doesn't help that in some departments the 101/intro/mostly-taken-by-nonmajors classes tend to be assigned to professors who aren't the most respected among their peers).
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Jun 9, 2017 16:41
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Guavanaut posted:That's because they murdered or drove into exile the entire left wing of their party. The Nazi left (which ordinarily sounds like a phrase only PJW would say while holding back tears) were socialist about nationalized industries and workers' revolution and cradle to grave social care. They were also terrible people about almost everything else. I found this after one of BadMouse's recent videos responding to Sargon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRD93HSEj9o I would have called myself a Marxist as a teenager and the school of Marxism I found to be most prevalent was Leninism or Trotskyism. Certainly seemed to be the favored ideology of the more popular online stuff, like WSWS. I had no idea Stalinists or Tankies were even a real thing for a long time because why would anyone support the paranoid dictator who hijacked the "glorious and pure revolution?" NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jun 9, 2017 |
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Jun 9, 2017 16:44
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Guavanaut posted:That's because they murdered or drove into exile the entire left wing of their party. The Nazi left (which ordinarily sounds like a phrase only PJW would say while holding back tears) were socialist about nationalized industries and workers' revolution and cradle to grave social care. They were also terrible people about almost everything else. Oh aye you can have autocratic dickhead socialism and the Nazis could have gone economically left but it's still hard to understand what is meant when people use nazi, national socialist, and socialist kind of interchangeably because they mean a lot of different things.
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Jun 9, 2017 16:50
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NikkolasKing posted:I found this after one of BadMouse's recent videos responding to Sargon: Because communism cannot fail.
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Jun 9, 2017 17:39
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aware of dog posted:Generally it seems that when Americans talk about Socialism what they really mean Nordic-style generous welfare programs and policies, not like, state ownership of the means of production. No one in Norway knows the true meaning of socialism either based on personal experience.
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Jun 9, 2017 17:50
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After celebrating the hung parliament, I immediately whipped out my phone and got on twitter to see what Sargon had to say. don't cry for me, I'm already dead
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Jun 9, 2017 18:05
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Calico Heart posted:After celebrating the hung parliament, I immediately whipped out my phone and got on twitter to see what Sargon had to say. ...and? What did that fount of wisdom have to say?
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Jun 9, 2017 18:19
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Samovar posted:...and? What did that fount of wisdom have to say? He hasn't put his video up yet. I feel certain it'll be complaining about cucks or foriegn people ruining his pasty white Britain, maybe with a dash of "Took 'Er Jerbs/Wimmun".
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Jun 9, 2017 18:29
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OwlFancier posted:Oh aye you can have autocratic dickhead socialism and the Nazis could have gone economically left but it's still hard to understand what is meant when people use nazi, national socialist, and socialist kind of interchangeably because they mean a lot of different things.  " that it almost seems like baiting to acknowledge it.But discussing in good faith you can argue that there was real Socialism in the early Nazi party, at least as real as within Scandinavian Socialism and the British Labour movement and the Farmer-Labor movement, without that implying that either socialism is bad or being a Nazi apologist. Unfortunately there's no shortage of people doing either, which muddies the debate. Calico Heart posted:After celebrating the hung parliament, I immediately whipped out my phone and got on twitter to see what Sargon had to say.
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Jun 9, 2017 18:29
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He's blaming the woman involved.
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Jun 9, 2017 18:40
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:He's blaming the woman involved. I mean, that's actually 100% correct in this instance, it's a toss up as to who did more to help Labour, May or Corbyn.
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Jun 9, 2017 18:45
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:He's blaming the woman involved. So Teresa May? I hate to agree with Sargon on anything, but May seems like she bungled this pretty badly. The whole thing comes off an an unforced error on the part of the Tories. I just worry that Labour is going to become poo poo itself since it seems to have absorbed the UKIP chud voters. Populism of any sort is bad for minority groups, on top of being poo poo for people with actual educations.
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Jun 9, 2017 18:46
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rkajdi posted:So Teresa May? I hate to agree with Sargon on anything, but May seems like she bungled this pretty badly. The whole thing comes off an an unforced error on the part of the Tories. Unlikely, recall that a lot of kippers were Labour before UKIP existed. Socialism, as Guavanaut pointed out, isn't always super nice, but the Labour party as a whole has become firmly liberal in a lot of its social thinking over the years, and that's no bad thing. Also the kippers tend not to be so politically active, just voters.
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Jun 9, 2017 18:48
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OwlFancier posted:Unlikely, recall that a lot of kippers were Labour before UKIP existed. Socialism, as Guavanaut pointed out, isn't always super nice, but the Labour party as a whole has become firmly liberal in a lot of its social thinking over the years, and that's no bad thing. You have dramatically more faith in lower class whites than I do. Maybe the UK has a higher class of rural chud than the US does, but judging by Sargon I'm sort of doubting the difference is anything beyond accent. EDIT: For reference I somewhat agree with Gauvanaut here. The issue has been pre-modern populists vs. modern people in the US for awhile now. The left has never been free of this-- remember what side of Scopes the rural ignorati like Williams Jenning Bryan came down on. Or for a modern example, how the left has been unsable to stamp out their end of the anti-vaxx/crunchy movement. rkajdi fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jun 9, 2017 |
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Jun 9, 2017 18:54
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OwlFancier posted:I mean, that's actually 100% correct in this instance, it's a toss up as to who did more to help Labour, May or Corbyn. Sure. But it's pretty obvious he didn't have a problem with the human rights tweet until she lost and poo poo like that
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Jun 9, 2017 18:54
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:Sure. But it's pretty obvious he didn't have a problem with the human rights tweet until she lost and poo poo like that Heh, didn't even see this tweet before now. Was May trying to throw the election? Or do the Tories not even care how awful they sound?
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Jun 9, 2017 19:02
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rkajdi posted:Heh, didn't even see this tweet before now. Was May trying to throw the election? Or do the Tories not even care how awful they sound? The latter.
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Jun 9, 2017 19:14
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Tories were certain they'd win a big majority. The country were certain they'd win a big majority. Britain's awful garbage press is always on their side. Corbyn was a terrorist loving pacifist anarchist communist stalinist antisemite according to all but two newspapers and half his own party. When Tories think they can't lose, the mask slips. When they're scared, it's "the party of real choice" and "we need to present a positive future for Britain". When they're not, it's "gently caress the brain damaged olds, gently caress foxes, gently caress the internet, gently caress your human rights."
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Jun 9, 2017 19:22
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Guavanaut posted:Tories were certain they'd win a big majority. The country were certain they'd win a big majority. Britain's awful garbage press is always on their side. Corbyn was a terrorist loving pacifist anarchist communist stalinist antisemite according to all but two newspapers and half his own party. I thought Corbyn's wing of the party had an anti-semitism problem, or there was at least discussed to have one in the press. Not super-surprising, since populists all over the West seem to be cut from a common cloth. But I'm also always skeptical of anybody who rails against "elites" (i.e. anyone with post-HS education), because it's impossible to understate how dumb and awful the common man in the West is. quote:When Tories think they can't lose, the mask slips. When they're scared, it's "the party of real choice" and "we need to present a positive future for Britain". When they're not, it's "gently caress the brain damaged olds, gently caress foxes, gently caress the internet, gently caress your human rights." So I guess they really like the GOP. I usually gave European mainstream politics a bit of an overall leftward vibe, meaning your conservatives tend to be less right than ours. About the only one of these positions the GOP wouldn't be for is fox hunting, and that's only because I don't think they understand what it involves.
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Jun 9, 2017 19:37
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rkajdi posted:I thought Corbyn's wing of the party had an anti-semitism problem, or there was at least discussed to have one in the press. It's the traditional Israel Vs. Palestine media debacle instead of the 2016 'White makes Right'-style anti-semitism. My point is that you probably shouldn't read too much into it.
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Jun 9, 2017 19:41
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rkajdi posted:
More that we don't really have foxes over here. Now wolves and coyotes (human or the fury kind) they're down with hunting.
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Jun 9, 2017 19:45
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MiddleOne posted:It's the traditional Israel Vs. Palestine media debacle instead of the 2016 'White makes Right'-style anti-semitism. My point is that you probably shouldn't read too much into it. You say that, but everything I've seen from the far left with their "cosmopolitan, nationless capital" conspiracy just comes off as the Protocols of Zion with the serial numbers filed off. Now, it could just be Lizard People style broke-brained screeching ala David Iche, but I personally don't feel like rolling the dice with that. Skex posted:More that we don't really have foxes over here. Now wolves and coyotes (human or the fury kind) they're down with hunting. This is sort of what I was trying to say. Though given most of the hunters I know, the horses and dogs might put the whole thing out of their price range. I legit couldn't believe people actually were still doing that kind of thing for sport in a supposedly civilized country. Trophy hunting is crude enough, but even the guy hunting a buck for its rack still wants the venison and isn't interested in having dogs rip apart his prey for him.
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Jun 9, 2017 20:00
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rkajdi posted:You say that, but everything I've seen from the far left with their "cosmopolitan, nationless capital" conspiracy What are you talking about? You're confusing the studied and well-known social phenomena of globalization with the conspiracy theory of globalism. 
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Jun 9, 2017 20:05
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rkajdi posted:I thought Corbyn's wing of the party had an anti-semitism problem, or there was at least discussed to have one in the press. Not super-surprising, since populists all over the West seem to be cut from a common cloth. But I'm also always skeptical of anybody who rails against "elites" (i.e. anyone with post-HS education), because it's impossible to understate how dumb and awful the common man in the West is. Outside of that it's mostly I-P stuff, not alt-right 'edgy' gas the Jews stuff. quote:So I guess they really like the GOP. I usually gave European mainstream politics a bit of an overall leftward vibe, meaning your conservatives tend to be less right than ours. About the only one of these positions the GOP wouldn't be for is fox hunting, and that's only because I don't think they understand what it involves.
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Jun 9, 2017 20:06
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MiddleOne posted:What are you talking about? You're confusing the studied and well-known social phenomena of globalization with the conspiracy theory of globalism. No I'm not. Fighting globalization is just as crazy and nativist as fighting globalism. And I've seen discussion about cosmopolitan capital (i.e. people smart enough not to not act like life begins and ends at your citizenship) from the populist left in general without a hint of irony. At best, it's a quarter step away from winging about the Rothschilds, and both are rooted in some broke brained idea that are owed something for being born in West instead of a developing country.
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Jun 9, 2017 20:18
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I have literally never read anyone supporting a global capital who wasn't also a conspiracy nut.
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Jun 9, 2017 20:26
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rkajdi posted:No I'm not. Fighting globalization is just as crazy and nativist as fighting globalism Opposing supranational institutions having a neoliberal and free-market oriented mandate is comparable with fighting a literal 1930's nazi conspiracy cabal in your mind....?  Socialists tend to oppose the current iteration of globalization because many of its goals (especially regarding pro-west trade policy, the environment and capital controls) are incompatible with creating a creating a strong state. This is largely the fault of the IMF and World Bank's ideological mandate and the WTO's repeated failure's at creating international free trade. MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jun 9, 2017 |
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Jun 9, 2017 20:48
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Corbyn rules and is not an anti-Semite, wait why do we even have to state this
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Jun 9, 2017 20:54
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Ta-Nehisi Coates has some writing about how moving to France made him realize that people can be economically socialist and still be very racist and nativist, which can be very odd to someone from the US.
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Jun 9, 2017 21:04
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