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Which Thread Title shall we name this new thread? This poll is closed. |
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| Independence Day 2: Resturgeonce |
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44 | 21.36% |
| ScotPol - Unclustering this gently caress |
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19 | 9.22% |
| Trainspotting 2: Independence is my heroin |
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9 | 4.37% |
| Indyref II: Boris hosed a Dead Country |
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14 | 6.80% |
| ScotPol: Wings over Bullshit |
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8 | 3.88% |
| Independence 2: Cameron Lied, UK Died |
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24 | 11.65% |
| Scotpol IV: I Vow To Flee My Country |
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14 | 6.80% |
| ScotPol - A twice in a generation thread |
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17 | 8.25% |
| ScotPol - Where Everything's hosed Up and the Referendums Don't Matter |
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15 | 7.28% |
| ScotPol Thread: Dependence Referendum Incoming |
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2 | 0.97% |
| Indyref II: The Scottish Insturgeoncy |
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10 | 4.85% |
| ScotPol Thread: Act of European Union |
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5 | 2.43% |
| ScotPol - Like Game of Thrones only we wish we would all die |
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25 | 12.14% |
| Total: | 206 votes | ||
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Now you all... You all should be ashamed of yourselves, for real.
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Jun 9, 2017 06:28
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Don't think you'll find any tory voters in here tho??
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Jun 9, 2017 06:35
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Well that was quite an election, and hopefully it has fired a rocket up the arse of the SNP leadership.
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Jun 9, 2017 06:35
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hakimashou posted:Now you all... I feel like this is what it's like to be England when they vote wrong which is mostly always. loving werid yet understandable.
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Jun 9, 2017 06:48
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Extreme0 posted:I feel like this is what it's like to be England when they vote wrong which is mostly always. Same actually. Any seat I have lived in recently stayed SNP at least, though I really hoped for ENL. But someone really needs to have words with certain parts of the country. I remember dancing round the kitchen in 97 when we got rid of all the bastards and I don't like them worming their way back.
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Jun 9, 2017 06:52
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keep punching joe posted:Well that was quite an election, and hopefully it has fired a rocket up the arse of the SNP leadership. This really, the SNP campaign was pathetic, no real policies or anything. Just vote for us to not get the Torys and thats terrible.
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Jun 9, 2017 07:53
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https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/status/873050334553284608
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Jun 9, 2017 09:02
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Aramoro posted:This really, the SNP campaign was pathetic, no real policies or anything. Just vote for us to not get the Torys and thats terrible. The campaign by every party in Scotland was pathetic. Maybe some individual candidates did a better job of it but it was either "We're not the Tories" or "We're not the Nats".
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Jun 9, 2017 09:51
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forkboy84 posted:The campaign by every party in Scotland was pathetic. Maybe some individual candidates did a better job of it but it was either "We're not the Tories" or "We're not the Nats". Though Labour and Tory could at least fallback on the fact that they wre campaigning nationally and had policies in their manifesto to talk about. It really feels like the SNP fumbled this election by not campaigning over anything that people care about. They said it was an election about independence but that goes no where if your opponents are actually talking about welfare spending, NHS budgets and immigration.
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Jun 9, 2017 10:19
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keep punching joe posted:Well that was quite an election, and hopefully it has fired a rocket up the arse of the SNP leadership. You mean the Scottish Labour leadership. Because that's who's voting SNP now, the Scottish Labour voters who abandoned the party. Someone in the UKMT accused Scottish Labour of treating Scotland like its fiefdom, an appendage to be ignored in policy because it could be counted on for votes anyway. This is essentially true, and it worked for a long time because the SNP were splitting the Scottish Tory vote. But when Sturgeon got her "glorious 56" result on the back of promising to work for Scotland after the Indyref and hoovered up the Labour voters, she made the mistake of doing the same thing. She thought that the overwhelming support her party had in Westminster and Holyrood was her strong mandate to campaign for a second Indyref, even though a failure would bury the issue and the party forever. The Tories in the party didn't want that - they want to rule a kingdom, not a fiefdom - and so they reverted to type. Scottish Labour were still stabbing Corbyn, so the Labour voters didn't want to return home in the same way. So: if you want someone to blame for last night's result, Kezia Dugdale is a good start. But if you want to discuss why the Tories gained seats, it was not the result of Scottish Labour taking votes from the SNP; it was the SNP taking votes from Labour. If Dugdale wasn't poo poo and had managed to recover half the SNP votes in the constituencies taken by the Conservatives, the Tories would not now be able to form a government even with DUP support. But if Sturgeon wasn't poo poo and hadn't unified the right, they wouldn't be able to form a government at all.
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Jun 9, 2017 11:38
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Jedit posted:So: if you want someone to blame for last night's result, Kezia Dugdale is a good start. But if you want to discuss why the Tories gained seats, it was not the result of Scottish Labour taking votes from the SNP; it was the SNP taking votes from Labour. If Dugdale wasn't poo poo and had managed to recover half the SNP votes in the constituencies taken by the Conservatives, the Tories would not now be able to form a government even with DUP support. But if Sturgeon wasn't poo poo and hadn't unified the right, they wouldn't be able to form a government at all. I don't get this argument at all. Looking at the results, Labour finished 3rd in every Tory-gained constituency. Even if Labour took literally half the SNP votes in all of them, they would only have been able to gain 3, and all very tight: Ayr, Carrick & Cumnock (and even then only by a couple of hundred votes), Renfrewshire East (only by around ~1500 votes) and Stirling (by less than 1000 votes).
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Jun 9, 2017 13:11
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Basically, in the inevitable next general election which will be called within a year because the coalition with the DUP is going to break down hard, both Scottish Labour and the SNP need to completely refocus their efforts. SNP need to ditch any notions for Indyref 2 and Scottish Labour need to stop being so useless and incompetent to the point they were actually telling voters to vote Tory over the SNP. Kezia Dugdale especially needs to get the boot and replaced with those loyal to Corbyn. Then they need to campaign hard, so hard to win over those who were disenfranchised with both parties and instead of fighting each other over independence, instead turn the knives to the Tories and what they've done and what they're going to do. Scotland going Tory can be recovered from. I'm pissed that it happened and disgusted that people I know have voted Tory and are the reason I now have a Tory MP. But it's not irreversible.
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Jun 9, 2017 15:13
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Niric posted:I don't get this argument at all. Looking at the results, Labour finished 3rd in every Tory-gained constituency. Even if Labour took literally half the SNP votes in all of them, they would only have been able to gain 3, and all very tight: Ayr, Carrick & Cumnock (and even then only by a couple of hundred votes), Renfrewshire East (only by around ~1500 votes) and Stirling (by less than 1000 votes). Kensington is still to declare, and there's fewer than 50 votes in it. If it falls to Labour the Tory/DUP alliance will have a functioning majority of 2. So three constituencies is all it would take.
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Jun 9, 2017 15:59
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I had people today claiming that Labour voters were to blame for SNP seats going to Tories, even when Lab vote was pretty stable and there was a clear swing from SNP to Tories. Biggest problem is people putting head in the sand and not accepting reality about what happened on election night. 2 issues which might come up: EVEL - the new Scottish Tory MPs will be limited in what they can vote on, what about the DUP too? I think the Tories would have a greater majority for English only issues though so may not impact anything. MPs under investigation - how many of the Tories re-elected were ones who were under investigation for 2015s expenses. I haven't seen it broken down anywhere, but the more of those there are the bigger the potential for early by-elections.
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Jun 9, 2017 18:57
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I'd be interested to see some polls in how voters changed in Scotland at some point - someone in the UK thread mentioned the possibility of Lab -> Tory (no-referendum soft labour voters) movement being cancelled out by SNP -> lab (lefty soft-Yes voters in favour of Corbynism) to some extent, which is an interesting hypothesis. Also waiting to see if Kezia gets pushed aside in favour of a less-hostile-to-Corbyn leader, as apparently Labour gains in Scotland were less than in England and that might have been a factor. e: oh and while I'm stealing things from the UK thread this post by Alertrelic was good imo and may be a good read for those passing non-scots wondering what the deal is with scotland: Alertrelic posted:
Angepain fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jun 9, 2017 |
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Jun 9, 2017 19:05
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Angepain posted:I'd be interested to see some polls in how voters changed in Scotland at some point - someone in the UK thread mentioned the possibility of Lab -> Tory (no-referendum soft labour voters) movement being cancelled out by SNP -> lab (lefty soft-Yes voters in favour of Corbynism) to some extent, which is an interesting hypothesis. Here's the first poll I've found which looks at this in one direction, as part of my grim fascination with what happened to the SNP: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/GE-post-vote-poll-Full-tables.pdf (warning: 161 page pdf). Relevant table is on page 8 - of the 2015 SNP voters polled (n=625), 80% stayed with SNP, 12% went Labour, 6% Tory and 2% Lib Dem. Not sure what the margin of error on that would be but it looks like the SNP was losing votes in both directions. e: no breakdown yet of where Scottish Labour voters went, though. Angepain fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Jun 10, 2017 |
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Jun 10, 2017 13:54
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also yess how did I miss this https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/873058110822203392
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Jun 10, 2017 14:42
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Where did this (false) meme that Labour told it's supporters to vote conservative appear from? I'm seeing all the nats on my twitter repeating it.
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Jun 10, 2017 15:04
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Kezia should go, but is there a better option available? They have to be Scottish MP or MSP (right?) that's at very least soft (most likely hardcore) Unionist, be left wing enough to pick up the Corbyn vote while also making it through whatever the leadership process -I imagine is designed to be as stacked against left wing candidates as the national ones were. Tons of their MPs and I must imagine all of their MSPs would have been campaigning on anti-Corbyn stuff at very least until after the manifesto surge this election. Your options have gotta be pretty loving limited, and they'll be massively outnumber by people closer to Kezia.
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Jun 10, 2017 15:10
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mediadave posted:Where did this (false) meme that Labour told it's supporters to vote conservative appear from? I'm seeing all the nats on my twitter repeating it. I believe mainly from this article: Leggsy posted:https://stv.tv/news/politics/1390070-unionist-parties-working-against-snp-in-key-seats/ Which as far as I can tell, pretty much says nothing of substance other than *shock horror* some parties may not campaign as hard for seats they're less competitive in, and then spends the rest of the wordcount waggling it's eyebrows suggestively
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Jun 10, 2017 15:11
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CoolCab posted:Kezia should go, but is there a better option available? Jezza Corbae. gently caress the dumb rule book. London dictatorship over trashfire Scottish Labour until they get their poo poo together. You can punch every Nat who goes on about branch party too.
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Jun 10, 2017 15:15
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You will never get someone good enough to lead Scottish Labour that isn't 100% literally Gordon Brown. The Scottish Tories differentiate themselves, SNP is obviously different, but I'm struggling to see why anyone would rather be a Labour MSP than a Labour MP for a Scottish constituency. If you're talented you'd rather move up, and the UK Labour Party is "up" from ScotLab. Edit: no wait it's SPL versus Premier League, that's the analogy Hoops fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Jun 10, 2017 |
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Jun 10, 2017 16:53
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Why does who leads Scottish Labour matter when you're deciding who to vote for in Westminster elections anyway? I don't think I've ever pondered my feelings towards Carwyn Jones when making my vote for my MP even if the ballot paper does say Llafur. You can still vote SNP candidates for your MSP. I tend to vote Plaid in Assembly elections.
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Jun 10, 2017 17:00
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Hoops posted:I'm struggling to see why anyone would rather be a Labour MSP than a Labour MP for a Scottish constituency. If you're talented you'd rather move up, and the UK Labour Party is "up" from ScotLab. The main reason would be that they could potentially be FM which is probably a great deal more interesting than Westminster lobby fodder.
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Jun 10, 2017 18:22
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Re. possible replacements, Neil Findlay or Alex Rowley would be good calls. Findlay ran Jezza's original leadership campaign in Scotland after coming second to Murphy in the Scottish leadership contest before last. Rowley is current deputy.
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Jun 10, 2017 19:05
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Hoops posted:The Scottish Tories differentiate themselves, SNP is obviously different, but I'm struggling to see why anyone would rather be a Labour MSP than a Labour MP for a Scottish constituency. If you're talented you'd rather move up, and the UK Labour Party is "up" from ScotLab. See also: why the SNP came to power in Holyrood in the first place. Boy I sure can't wait to vote for charisma factory Iain Gray for First Minister
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Jun 10, 2017 19:30
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Acaila posted:Re. possible replacements, Neil Findlay or Alex Rowley would be good calls. The problem all these people have, but especially Findlay, is that they are still loving fanatical in the "SNP BAD INDEPENDENCE BAD" mindset, & I'm sorry but Labour need to accept that plenty of left wing people are pro-independence & be more welcoming to them. They can stay unionist broadly but the way they do it is loving intolerable.
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Jun 10, 2017 19:30
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Richard Leonard sometimes gets talked up a bit too but he's not really that experienced. With 3 new Corbyn supporting MPs, though, that's 3 more unrealistic potential leadership candidates! Yay!
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Jun 10, 2017 19:34
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Angepain posted:See also: why the SNP came to power in Holyrood in the first place. Boy I sure can't wait to vote for charisma factory Iain Gray for First Minister Who?
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Jun 10, 2017 19:36
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cargohills posted:Richard Leonard sometimes gets talked up a bit too but he's not really that experienced. With 3 new Corbyn supporting MPs, though, that's 3 more unrealistic potential leadership candidates! Yay! There is almost no way that the Scottish Labour leader doesn't sit at Holyrood. I know technically it's allowed but it seems unlikely.
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Jun 10, 2017 19:42
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forkboy84 posted:The problem all these people have, but especially Findlay, is that they are still loving fanatical in the "SNP BAD INDEPENDENCE BAD" mindset, & I'm sorry but Labour need to accept that plenty of left wing people are pro-independence & be more welcoming to them. They can stay unionist broadly but the way they do it is loving intolerable. Yeah Neil Findlay was a bit mean during the indyref. Alex Rowley seems a bit more....open minded shall we say? According to mutual friends anyway. I totally agree with you anyway, it's just that nobody seems keen to actually step away from that attitude.
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Jun 10, 2017 19:47
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Leggsy posted:Who? As soon as I made that post I lost all memory of who I was referring to, so I can't help you sorry forkboy84 posted:There is almost no way that the Scottish Labour leader doesn't sit at Holyrood. I know technically it's allowed but it seems unlikely. Jim Murphy managed it, for some definition of "managed"
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Jun 10, 2017 19:48
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Angepain posted:As soon as I made that post I lost all memory of who I was referring to, so I can't help you sorry Somehow I forgot about Jim. Hmmm. That went well though
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Jun 10, 2017 19:53
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The mean streak in me is a bit disappointed that Kez hasn't been one of the line of prominent Labour Corbyn critics that have been made to eat crow on TV yet, but I suppose there will be time.
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Jun 10, 2017 20:30
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Did Jim not promise to run for Holyrood but lose his Westminster seat before he could?
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Jun 10, 2017 22:02
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forkboy84 posted:The problem all these people have, but especially Findlay, is that they are still loving fanatical in the "SNP BAD INDEPENDENCE BAD" mindset, & I'm sorry but Labour need to accept that plenty of left wing people are pro-independence & be more welcoming to them. They can stay unionist broadly but the way they do it is loving intolerable. Yeah this is a key issue. I think, especially for people like Findlay, its actually about being a long-term party loyalist and an expression of tribalism rather than a particular attraction to British nationalism, but its still toxic. They also need to sort a message on tuition fees and sever themselves from some of Labour's past mistakes. Fresh faces would be very helpful, but they are in short supply at Holyrood. I don't think Scottish Labour needs to be waving saltires, simply not talking about independence as if it was some sort of armageddon scenario would be a start. Apart from anything, it undermines the key argument that austerity is a political choice rather than a budgetary necessity. Indyref2 is absolutely dead, for the time being (I was definitely wrong to say calling it was a good move by Sturgeon, though she didn't have much choice from the perspective of a centrist europhile). Let the Tories and SNP fight out the constitutional battle, seize the future and rise above Scotland's parochial constitutional focus with a UK-wide, socialist message. Labour could sweep the central belt again, some of those SNP majorities are tiny.
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Jun 10, 2017 22:16
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Acaila posted:Yeah Neil Findlay was a bit mean during the indyref. I'd agree with that. Alex Rowley tends to handle it a wee bit better (and his social media presence is more professional, although that might partly be out of necessity as Deputy Leader). Acaila posted:Did Jim not promise to run for Holyrood but lose his Westminster seat before he could? Yep! Didn't Alex Salmond lead the SNP as an MP for a while, btw? I'd agree that it's a bad idea though.
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Jun 10, 2017 23:32
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Yes, but I think same as Spud, he had to promise to seek election to Holyrood ASAP.
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Jun 11, 2017 01:44
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Was the status of your migrant-partisan settled? He had a bit of a meltdown on election night in the big UK thread and I suggested maybe he could become Catalonian or perhaps Basque or an Irish Republican.
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Jun 11, 2017 04:41
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| # ? May 10, 2024 13:29 |
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Herald article showing that perhaps senior ScotLab figures have sussed out that harping on about independence does more harm than good? Sadly I'm not sure that particular memo has made it all the way to Kez's door yet.
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Jun 11, 2017 18:38
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