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RagnarokAngel posted:Do people feel the same about religious organizations marching? Even the ones that are pro-LGBT now probably weren't in the past. i personally feel that way if it's the self serving "hey sorry for the other christians but we're cool" and tbh i trust lgbt religious people far more than i do straight religious people to tell me they're "with it" so in that sense yea i feel the similarly
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Jun 12, 2017 03:02
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Senju Kannon posted:i personally feel that way if it's the self serving "hey sorry for the other christians but we're cool" YEah, same. There are actually a lot of churches in my state that fully welcome queer people. Hell one of the speakers at the Hartford rally today was a black transmale preacher who said we have to take the microphones away from the Ellens and NPHs of the world. Honestly a good portion of the rally was Queer history and I really wanna know more. Especially int he early 90's when activism became more white.
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Jun 12, 2017 03:10
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BigRed0427 posted:SO is a gun company sponsoring DC PRide or something? Lockheed Martin is local to DC. And yeah this is basically "We don't fire our LGBTQ employees!" level of support.
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Jun 12, 2017 03:23
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Cirvot posted:Yes, because hating and excluding LGBTQ people that choose the profession today is cool for the crimes commited by their (probably cis het) predecessors. Yeah I'm really not cool with the idea of inherited guilt by association, regardless of the group to whom it's being applied.
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Jun 12, 2017 03:35
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The police as an organisation are still hella guilty by themselves, no association needed.
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Jun 12, 2017 03:36
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Cops will have to do better than a lame 'mea culpa' if they want forgiveness for their many crimes. Full stop. They have their blue shield. They're taught their blue shield. They enjoy the many benefits of their blue shield. Enjoy it, and go march somewhere else. You maintain 'security' at our whim, not yours. You want your dick sucked at PRIDE? take the uniform off and show your heart, pathetic trash. Or don't. I don't care and many others also don't care
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Jun 12, 2017 03:46
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So I feel conflicted here because I think the whole argument about "are cops guilty for joining a terrible organisation even if they themselves personally haven't done anything wrong?" Is important and very pertinent to queer issues. But everytime D&D has a cop threads it goes very badly and I don't want this thread closed.
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Jun 12, 2017 03:48
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If a cop doesn't actively stop people who do bad things, then they aren't a good person. They're an accessory, either during or after the act, and in civilian terms that makes them just as guilty as if they shot the unarmed suspect themselves.
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Jun 12, 2017 03:57
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I don't want to poo poo on cops more than deserved, but for GLBTQ people there is no mechanism to come to justice. There never has been and there still isn't. Even in big cities with a GLBT liaison. The outreach has to come from police. We want it. They don't give a gently caress. They see a dollar sign not related to terrorism and they balk. Some cities like Dallas do try, and they fail. Because even the cops that do care value the blue shield over civil service.
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Jun 12, 2017 04:08
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My first and last thought: No, I don't think queer/trans police officers should be welcome at pride, to say nothing of their cishet coworkers. It's not about history or politics either, but about power. Police officers are empowered, to serve and protect the interests of the state. (Polis + Man = Man of The City, thanks Terry Pratchett). When an LGBT+ person joins a toxic, harmful, and above all else powerful group, they are accessing empowerment at other's expense. (And, often this privilege comes from other parts of their intersectional identities: I don't see many Black Trans Disabled Women police officers, do you?) To that end, it's wrong for LGBT+ people to sell out other LGBT+ people in their own self interest, no matter the form it takes. I'm also against, say, queers for Trump or trans=exclusionary lesbians, or whoever.
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Jun 12, 2017 04:38
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RagnarokAngel posted:Do people feel the same about religious organizations marching? Even the ones that are pro-LGBT now probably weren't in the past. If the Episcopalians want to march then I'm down with it. They picked their LGBTQ members over their conservative ones, and it cost them. And I think that kind of gets to the heart of the problem with corporations and police as well. Acceptance of the queer community is/was an ethical issue, and you don't get any points for taking a stand when it's all but settled, and you aren't actually taking one when you're ignoring the ongoing abuse of your institution against the community. You're the group with the political and social capitol. Stick your drat neck out for us or stop pretending you're any kind of ally.
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Jun 12, 2017 05:07
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Senju Kannon posted:If a cop doesn't actively stop people who do bad things, then they aren't a good person. They're an accessory, either during or after the act, and in civilian terms that makes them just as guilty as if they shot the unarmed suspect themselves. At an Auckland pride parade a couple of years ago some private security fractured a Maori trans women's arm because she was protesting police/corrections being in the parade. Happened right in front of cops, who of course did nothing to stop it.
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Jun 12, 2017 05:31
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I spent years working with dozens of folks who were/are cops. Not all police officers are bastards; just the majority of them. If cops don't want me to have this opinion, then maybe they should stop being assholes?
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Jun 12, 2017 15:34
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*sigh* Turns out you can't post a memorial pic on Pulse to Facebook or twitter without rear end in a top hat telling me I need to be angry about Muslims.
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Jun 12, 2017 15:38
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Thalantos posted:I spent years working with dozens of folks who were/are cops. This. I live in Denmark which is some claim has the best police force in the world( as concerns treating citizens well), and every other guy you meet is an rear end in a top hat with a power trip. Back when I dyed my hair loud colours and wore a leather jacket, they'd often just stop me to shove me against a wall or punch me. During less gay-friendly administrations, gay couples were harassed as well. Being a cop means entering a structure of blind obedience to your superiours, as well as lying to cover human rights abuses because that's the organizational culture that still persists today. You can enter as an idealist, unaware of these problems, but either you get with the program or are forced out. I can only imagine how lovely they are in America, but I wouldn't presume to know.
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Jun 12, 2017 15:55
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Tias posted:This. I live in Denmark which is some claim has the best police force in the world( as concerns treating citizens well), and every other guy you meet is an rear end in a top hat with a power trip. Back when I dyed my hair loud colours and wore a leather jacket, they'd often just stop me to shove me against a wall or punch me. During less gay-friendly administrations, gay couples were harassed as well. If you want to learn about the police as an institution in America there are many many great articles which cover that subject Corruption/Abuse of Power https://theintercept.com/2016/10/06/corrupt-chicago-police-were-taxing-drug-dealers-and-targeting-their-rivals/ http://projects.buffalonews.com/abusing-the-law/index.html Violence as the only answer http://www.motherjones.com/media/2017/03/police-shootings-black-lives-matter-history-timeline/ http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/07/police-shootings-traffic-stops-excessive-fines/ Institution https://medium.com/@Brookings/the-crisis-in-american-policing-26877fb63dd4 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/26/opinion/police-violence-american-epidemic-american-consent.html?mcubz=0 http://theconversation.com/americas-police-culture-has-a-masculinity-problem-62666 Are some good ones. It is a topic that unsurprisingly over the last 3 years has exploded. EDIT: I realize this may be offtopic and many of the articles do not directly contain LGBT+ content, if this is inappropriate for this thread I can remove it.
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Jun 12, 2017 16:15
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One of my few positive brushes with a cops (well he was a police student) was at an end of semester party at a friend's like 12 years ago, he was half drunk and basically retelling all the poo poo they do to make you suspicious of everyone, doubly so for racial and sexual minorities. He basically spent the whole night explaining this poo poo and how police students like him were basically used on the regular as cop infiltrators during student protests and he felt like poo poo about it (that was in the aftermath of one of Quebec's regularly scheduled student strikes). The twist here being that he'd literally decided to drop out and switch to a technical degree in carpentry the month before. So yeah that's my one good cop story. The system eats idealists and turns them into either accomplices or martyrs. Does anyone here remember Adrian Schoolcraft? He was put in solitary at Jamaica's mental health ward because he decided to be a NYPD whistleblower after years of harassment.
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Jun 12, 2017 16:17
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BigRed0427 posted:*sigh* Turns out you can't post a memorial pic on Pulse to Facebook or twitter without rear end in a top hat telling me I need to be angry about Muslims. Because I'm sure some Muslim somewhere, sometime, had a lovely opinion about LGBT folks, I don't know how much sympathy you'll get, based on the last couple pages.
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Jun 12, 2017 21:19
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joat mon posted:Because I'm sure some Muslim somewhere, sometime, had a lovely opinion about LGBT folks, I don't know how much sympathy you'll get, based on the last couple pages. ??????
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Jun 12, 2017 21:21
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joat mon posted:Because I'm sure some Muslim somewhere, sometime, had a lovely opinion about LGBT folks, I don't know how much sympathy you'll get, based on the last couple pages. REally? I have to put up with this here too? gently caress You.
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Jun 12, 2017 21:29
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BigRed0427 posted:REally? I have to put up with this here too? gently caress You. No, I agree with you that having to be angry about Muslims is stupid. But the same pages where "gently caress corporation floats in pride parades, gently caress allowing cops to attend in uniform, gently caress allowing politicians to campaign there unless their record on gay rights is SPOTLESS, and gently caress any straight tourist that isn't respectful" is cheered and religion gets (albeit more gently) tossed in too, your sentiment of compassion and toleration felt unfortunately out of place at the moment.
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Jun 12, 2017 21:37
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just when you think you're out
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Jun 12, 2017 21:38
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joat mon posted:No, I agree with you that having to be angry about Muslims is stupid. Oh, sorry about that. It's mostly coming from people who don't give one solid gently caress about us. They just want another reason to hate Muslims.
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Jun 12, 2017 21:40
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joat mon posted:No, I agree with you that having to be angry about Muslims is stupid. what the gently caress is wrong with you? religions are massive entities organized of individuals with differing philosophies. corporations and police forces are unified entities that act unilaterally from the policy laid out by their leadership. it's entirely different. nobody's kicking Unitarian Universalists out of pride parades because their relationship to, say, holy rollers is basically a tiny amount of shared vocabulary. Meanwhile, police as an institution have centuries of of history of using their power to maintain the status quo even when that status quo is the creation of underclasses of human beings based on their sex or skin color. This is a common feature of all police departments nearly uniformly. Even in "liberal bastions" like New York, Chicago, San Francisco, and so on, police have long track records of beating up and killing black people and queer people to this very day. meanwhile the vast majority of muslims mostly want to live their lives in peace and leave others in peace.
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Jun 12, 2017 21:57
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Cerepol posted:If you want to learn about the police as an institution in America there are many many great articles which cover that subject This is good stuff, though you may want to post it in the Prison thread instead! Following that one, I've had my fill of the US criminal justice system 
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Jun 12, 2017 22:01
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I'll support police marching in Pride events when the police protect the LGBT community.
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Jun 12, 2017 22:01
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joat mon posted:No, I agree with you that having to be angry about Muslims is stupid. Cops aren't a marginalized minority, stop it.
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Jun 12, 2017 22:13
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How would yall feel about a catholic float at pride?
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Jun 12, 2017 22:24
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Id personally be okay with it since the american catholic community is generally less assholish than rome, as long as they don't do the cop/corporation thing of trying to promote the vatican brand and how much Pope Francis loves gay people now
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Jun 12, 2017 22:28
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Control Volume posted:How would yall feel about a catholic float at pride? well since it'd either be most holy redeemer (though probably not since the current bishop out there has been on their rear end looking for a way to make them get in line with the american bishops) or something put together by dignity usa or new ways ministry (lgbt catholic organizations) i wouldn't have an issue with it. cause idk if straight lay catholics would try to make a pride float, and i certainly know 99 dioceses/parishes out of 100 would be either unwilling or otherwise unable to make a float
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Jun 12, 2017 22:57
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Control Volume posted:How would yall feel about a catholic float at pride? Same way I'd feel about a Saudi float, which is that hell will freeze over before it happens in the first place so it's kind of a pointless rhetorical question. It still doesn't justify rampant islamophobia as a reaction to the pulse shooting. It's still not really comparable to pinkwashing the popo or corps.
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Jun 12, 2017 23:00
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Control Volume posted:How would yall feel about a catholic float at pride? I'd be ok with catholic PEOPLE marching, but probably be against an official catholic church float. Control Volume posted:Id personally be okay with it since the american catholic community is generally less assholish than rome There is a strain of American Catholicism that is just as bad as the worst evangelicals. Remember Bill Donohue?
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Jun 12, 2017 23:33
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Even if most Muslims have strongly negative views of LGBTQ people, which may or may not be the case, the vast majority of them are not going to kill people or support killing people, and have no relation whatsoever to the kind of person who would commit an atrocity like the Pulse shooting, so attacking Muslims or Islam as a result of that is Not Good. All police officers benefit from the power structures which oppress LGBTQ people (and people of color), and their organizations are inherently complicit in that oppression, which makes that situation completely different.
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Jun 12, 2017 23:52
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And Rick Santorum. I know that in the US, there are catholics who don't care in the slightest about the pope. To me, the church still has blood on their hands for what they did during the AIDS crisis. And even today catholic hospitals refuse service to trans people, and adoption agencies do everything in their power to spite gay couples. And the occasional casual conflation of pedophiles with gay people still bounces around, though that usually stays confined to the lunatics. I'm not blind to the fact that purity tests are dumb, and to expect a massive and bureaucratic organization like the Catholic church to make changes over a generation or 2 is not possible. All I would demand for some level of enfranchisement in PRIDE is for them to have an office within the church dedicated toward affecting slow and steady changes to dismantle their institutional bigotry. Right now we get dehumanized, and even the liberal diocese are mostly silent. It's contrary to the spirit of PRIDE. E: Oh, and catholic schools fire gay staff and kick out gay students. Bethamphetamine fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Jun 13, 2017 |
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Jun 13, 2017 00:08
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also the usccb refuses to hire me and that is incredibly transphobic  (the funny thing is it might actually be, hard to tell on that one lmao)
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Jun 13, 2017 00:19
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That would be because the top never really stopped being lovely about it. The pope was, as a cardinal, a lot more conservative than he generally lets on now. I forget whether it was him or Benedict but recently enough an italian priest was defrocked for marrying a trans woman in a church. Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Jun 13, 2017 |
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Jun 13, 2017 00:22
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You don't like the war industry or police brutality? Turns out you were the real bigots all along, gays!
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Jun 13, 2017 08:36
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I'm not being flippant that I think police should only march in Pride parades if they protect the LGBT community. By and large, they don't, so why the gently caress should the LGBT community support them or indicate that they're welcome?
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Jun 13, 2017 14:36
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Control Volume posted:How would yall feel about a catholic float at pride? Nope. At least not until the Pope speaks ex cathedra on all flavors of the LGBTQ community being welcome and accepted as they are.
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Jun 13, 2017 15:02
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Cythereal posted:I'm not being flippant that I think police should only march in Pride parades if they protect the LGBT community. By and large, they don't, so why the gently caress should the LGBT community support them or indicate that they're welcome? Are we talking police marching in uniform or police being allowed out of uniform? If the latter, congrats on volunteering to interrogate and perform background checks.
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Jun 13, 2017 22:30
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