|
Read my article asking why democrats don't just FIGHT and destroy the GOP's horcruxes instead of ALLOWING this bill that will pass without a single blue vote Wow, this is much more fun than grappling with the fact that a ton of people in this country don't give a poo poo about accessible health care or human life and are welcoming the onset of fascism and racist Kleptocracy with open arms. Spiritus Nox fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Jun 13, 2017 |
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 17:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 19:09 |
|
|
I believe paste is on my fake (in this case, deliberately misleadingly partisan, designed to induce rage and indignation) news list.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 17:40
|
|
|
Spiritus Nox posted:I'm really tired of people declaring that the problem is dems abiding by the rules and not that a huge portion of the electorate is actively evil. These morons are just as dumb add the tea partiers who were pissed that the repubs didn't blow up the country or something to prevent the aca from being passed. Turns out elections matter, crazy I know. Honestly the resistance provided by the democrats so far has been extremely good but Bernie bros are crybaby children who will never be happy 
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 17:42
|
|
|
Spiritus Nox posted:I'm really tired of people declaring that the problem is dems abiding by the rules and not that a huge portion of the electorate is actively evil. Isn't the problem that they are playing by the rules when the evil guys are not? This is like the sheep and the wolves trying to co-operate.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 17:48
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:Isn't the problem that they are playing by the rules when the evil guys are not? This is like the sheep and the wolves trying to co-operate. no that is not the problem
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 17:49
|
|
|
evilweasel posted:no that is not the problem Ok wise guy how are you going to make evil people nice?
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 17:52
|
|
|
BarbarianElephant posted:Ok wise guy how are you going to make evil people nice? hope enough of them come to their senses that democrats have enough power to block republican stuff after 2018 and win back the presidency in 2020, then crush them there aren't rules democrats can break that will get them additional power when they hold none of the elected branches of government
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 17:55
|
|
|
There is nothing that the democrats in the senate can do to prevent the AHCA if McConnel has 50 votes. They can delay poo poo and drag their heels, but there's nothing that can stop it. The ACA is gone. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:00
|
|
|
far more important for Senate Democrats to preserve their precious Posting Energies than to be seen visibly fighting for something, indeed, anything. any day now all that stored-up political capital's gonna get spent. aaaaany day now.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:12
|
|
|
Ze Pollack posted:far more important for Senate Democrats to preserve their precious Posting Energies than to be seen visibly fighting for something, indeed, anything. so you would have them throw a fit for what purpose? They're going to delay the bill a trivial amount of time at most. It's not about saving up political capital. It's about being realistic. There's not a god damned thing they can do, so instead they must be pragmatic and work where they can.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:14
|
|
|
The senate democrats could all just stay home and not show up and the same bills are going to pass regardless. There is nothing they can do. They cannot effectively stall anything. So would you rather them cry and do nothing or actually do their job and influence the legislation that they can?
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:16
|
|
|
Mr. Nice! posted:so you would have them throw a fit for what purpose? They're going to delay the bill a trivial amount of time at most. It's not about saving up political capital. It's about being realistic. There's not a god damned thing they can do, so instead they must be pragmatic and work where they can. the purpose is to demonstrate that in the eyes of Senate Democrats, there are things worth delaying, because one week longer is that many more lives saved, and that many more chances for something to leak that makes someone decommit. this will prove the democratic party is pragmatic. the purpose is to demonstrate that as far as the Democratic Party is concerned, this is not a game, this is people's lives saved, and if they are going to be defeated by Republicans they are at least going to go down swinging. this will prove the democratic party is moral. the purpose is to demonstrate that the Democratic Party will act on a single goddamn thing it claims to believe. this will prove the democratic party deserves to continue to exist.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:19
|
|
|
Ze Pollack posted:the purpose is to demonstrate that in the eyes of Senate Democrats, there are things worth delaying, because one week longer it won't delay things by a week, or any amount of time at all, and if it did they would do it as they already said this is a stupid argument by stupid people who didn't even read the stupid article all the way through (like the writer themself)
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:23
|
|
|
It's not going to last a week. It's going to delay it by minutes. They have zero ways to effectively delay the bill at all. If McConnel has 50 votes, the democrats have two options: throw a fit that does nothing, refuse to participate in senate business and get zero say in any legislation, and get called out by every media outlet for it OR continue working on legislation where they have input instead. If they're pushing the bill, they have the votes. If they have the votes, 49 democrats cannot do a loving thing. They can grandstand all day, but there's nothing that can be done to delay or prevent it. Not even a week. And if they're putting the bill to a vote, no amount of town halls are going to change the minds of the people voting yes. The only thing that you, me, or anyone else can do is try to influence the 2018 elections.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:24
|
|
|
evilweasel posted:it won't delay things by a week, or any amount of time at all, and if it did they would do it as they already said for someone insistent on the pragmatic value of curling up into a whimpering ball to die quietly, you sure make a lot of noise
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:25
|
|
|
I recall seeing Bernie doing a filibuster long long ago that went on for 9 hours. I didn't follow him very closely until recent years, but that moment stuck with me and if someone would ask what I thought about him, I'd usually give a thumbs up. Which is to say, there's definitely some room for a Senate Dem here to make a name for themselves by being obstructionist in whatever way they can. Overall though; quote:far more important for Senate Democrats to preserve their precious Posting Energies than to be seen visibly fighting for something, indeed, anything I think this is super lazy thinking. The Dem's have no power at the moment, so no one has cameras on them. That doesn't mean they aren't posting, making statements, or doing outreach. Just because you personally don't see it in your facebook feed or in headlines, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Now if you're being critical of em' because they aren't doing a sit in, you should look at Wisconsin in 2010 where the Dem Senators literally fled the state to delay a vote on a bill that killed Unions in the state. That ended with them coming back, the bill getting passed, and the Republican super majority retaining power to the present day. I hope at least one Dem manages to satisfy the base that wants them to be more 'visible opposition'. But I can't help worry that such efforts would still go unnoticed and under reported.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:26
|
|
|
Mr. Nice! posted:It's not going to last a week. It's going to delay it by minutes. They have zero ways to effectively delay the bill at all. If McConnel has 50 votes, the democrats have two options: throw a fit that does nothing, refuse to participate in senate business and get zero say in any legislation, and get called out by every media outlet for it OR continue working on legislation where they have input instead. goodness. called out by every media outlet for throwing a fit about Republicans trying to kick millions of people off health insurance. i can see how there's no potential political benefits to doing that, certainly.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:26
|
|
|
So, pray tell, how do the democrats in the senate delay this bill? What makes you think that any republican is not going to vote yes on a trillion dollar tax cut for the 1%? If the turtle has 50 votes - how do you stop it? What should they do, in your mind, that would be effective?
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:27
|
|
|
Ze Pollack posted:goodness. called out by every media outlet for throwing a fit about Republicans trying to kick millions of people off health insurance. They're going to call out the republicans constantly in media and otherwise. They're going to do it on the floor of the senate. They're going to do it at townhalls across the country. That's not what they're talking about when they're saying they're not going to quit working over the AHCA.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:27
|
|
|
Ze Pollack posted:for someone insistent on the pragmatic value of curling up into a whimpering ball to die quietly, you sure make a lot of noise you get real whiny and surly when forced to confront facts and lash out like a small child have you considered a job in the trump administration
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:29
|
|
|
Ze Pollack posted:goodness. called out by every media outlet for throwing a fit about Republicans trying to kick millions of people off health insurance. Depends on how or if it was reported. With so much crazy irregular poo poo happening, it's entirely likely that it would be a footnote in the news along the line of 'Dem Senator does thing'. I'm not saying they shouldn't protest (and, to be clear, they are), but I don't see your scenario playing out unless it's a really clever protest on a slow news day.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:30
|
|
|
Mr. Nice! posted:So, pray tell, how do the democrats in the senate delay this bill? What makes you think that any republican is not going to vote yes on a trillion dollar tax cut for the 1%? If the turtle has 50 votes - how do you stop it? What should they do, in your mind, that would be effective? Work with moderate Republicans for a no vote. That is all they can do.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:31
|
|
|
Mr. Nice! posted:They're going to call out the republicans constantly in media and otherwise. They're going to do it on the floor of the senate. They're going to do it at townhalls across the country. man, sure would be awful if there was a single media incident that they could point to at those townhalls. how cutting the news is going to be about Democrats throwing a tantrum over Republicans voting to kill people.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:31
|
|
|
EatinCake posted:I think this is super lazy thinking. The Dem's have no power at the moment, so no one has cameras on them. That doesn't mean they aren't posting, making statements, or doing outreach. Just because you personally don't see it in your facebook feed or in headlines, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Yeah, I've been seeing them trying to get health care back in the news repeatedly. The problem isn't a lack of effort by Democratic senators. The problem is (a) the Russia/Comey thing is sucking up all of the coverage and (b) stories about congressional process are not really interesting and tend not to make news. McConnell has been successful in hiding the details of whatever horror they're planning on unleashing so that the media can't run stories about what they are doing now and that's a real problem, but I'm not real sure how to fix that short of breaking into the CBO's office or McConnell's office and stealing a copy of the bill.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:31
|
|
|
succ posted:Work with moderate Republicans for a no vote. That is all they can do. there's no working with moderate republicans. the only lever is to focus those republican's local media and constituency on what they're doing, which is what they're trying to do
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:32
|
|
|
EatinCake posted:I recall seeing Bernie doing a filibuster long long ago that went on for 9 hours. I didn't follow him very closely until recent years, but that moment stuck with me and if someone would ask what I thought about him, I'd usually give a thumbs up. Those aren't real filibusters; actually talking time is scheduled, filibusters are just assumed to have happened if 60 senators don't vote. Rand Paul pulled the same stunt a few times. I remember when he finished and Reid said something like "your scheduled time is up would you like another hour?" just to troll him.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:32
|
|
|
evilweasel posted:you get real whiny and surly when forced to confront facts and lash out like a small child the ultimate sin in the eyes of the Pragmatic, Centrist Liberal: 'make a show out of giving a poo poo.' they genuinely wonder why they lost everything to a senile game show host, you know.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:33
|
|
|
Ze Pollack posted:the ultimate sin in the eyes of the Pragmatic, Centrist Liberal: 'make a show out of giving a poo poo.' see, like, you're wrong on a simple and easy to check fact and you throw a histronic hissy fit about how you're always right and how dare people talk about facts and the evil democrats are out to get you instead of going "whoops that was wrong" you'd fit right in
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:39
|
|
|
Spiritus Nox posted:I'm really tired of people declaring that the problem is dems abiding by the rules and not that a huge portion of the electorate is actively evil. Fighting's worth it. The angles I'd push are Propaganda of the Deed and engendering trust/enthusiasm from the base. If you're interested in a contrasting perspective, here you go: (for a tl;dr, skip to the asterixes) Democrats represented labor until deindustrialization neutered labor as a center of power. Now they want to go right because that's where the remaining centers of power are. In the broad strokes (re: power), you're looking at:
* If you take a realpolitik view of things then they're (essentially) correct to sell out the country. They can't do better than being pulled right and garnering concessions so what the gently caress do you want them to do? * If you believe, as I do, that fired up New Deal Democrats representing the general public could consistently succeed on the basis of said representation then the centrists can do better but simply refuse to so what the gently caress? The Republicans are capitalizing on nativisit populism. The Democrats could capitalize on emancipatory populism, and they should because it'd work.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:43
|
|
|
Accretionist posted:The Republicans are dragging the country right on behalf of the latter. The Democrats are happy to be pulled right toward the former, refusing to fight in exchange for concessions. uh no
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:49
|
|
|
Mr. Nice! posted:So, pray tell, how do the democrats in the senate delay this bill? What makes you think that any republican is not going to vote yes on a trillion dollar tax cut for the 1%? If the turtle has 50 votes - how do you stop it? What should they do, in your mind, that would be effective? If they can't stop it in the senate, then maybe they should work on stopping it outside the senate. Like, maybe gel up the Senate and make a huge stink out of it and try to whip up so much public outrage that the GOP has to think twice before pushing it through. This might even work, since the GOP seems insistent on pushing it though on the sly, and even if it doesn't that public outrage could easily translate to votes in 2018. But I guess they have to be "pragmatic" and make it look like they're throwing in the towel again. That's sure to please the electorate. And in case I'm unclear here this won't please anybody except the people who have made being super smug even when you're consistently wrong about everything into their life's work.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:51
|
|
|
They can't gel up the senate. 51 senators are needed for a quorum. They cannot stop anything at all.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:57
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:If they can't stop it in the senate, then maybe they should work on stopping it outside the senate. Like, maybe gel up the Senate and make a huge stink out of it and try to whip up so much public outrage that the GOP has to think twice before pushing it through. This might even work, since the GOP seems insistent on pushing it though on the sly, and even if it doesn't that public outrage could easily translate to votes in 2018. the only people who think they look like they're throwing in the towel are brokebrained idiots who will believe that no matter what
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:58
|
|
|
The democrats have two options for what they can do inside the senate: they can refuse to work or even show up to work for everything and effectively stop nothing and get no input onto any legislation OR they can continue to work on legislation that they can influence and vote no on garbage bills like the AHCA that they cannot stop. Edit: the 60 vote threshold is only for cloture and not really required for anything that the republicans don't want as shown by the appointment of the best writer on the SCOTUS. Mr. Nice! fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jun 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:59
|
|
|
Mr. Nice! posted:The democrats have two options for what they can do inside the senate: they can refuse to work or even show up to work for everything and effectively stop nothing and get no input onto any legislation OR they can continue to work on legislation that they can influence and vote no on garbage bills like the AHCA that they cannot stop. it's not even this, this is not what's being discussed, what is being discussed is a tiny tactical issue what is being discussed is basically if they should gum up the works of the senate by denying unanimous consent in a way that'll block the russia sanctions bill and the sessions hearing in the hopes it gets more media coverage it won't block the ahca or delay it at all it's not about should they cooperate with republicans or fight: they're fighting, it's if the very minor additional chance of getting attention by blocking the sessions hearing and the russia bill will be worth it even if it wrecks both those things that's it, period
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 19:04
|
|
|
evilweasel posted:the only people who think they look like they're throwing in the towel are brokebrained idiots who will believe that no matter what Forgive me if I take your assurances with a larger than average pinch of salt.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 19:06
|
|
|
evilweasel posted:it's not even this, this is not what's being discussed, what is being discussed is a tiny tactical issue that's even dumber.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 19:07
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:Forgive me if I take your assurances with a larger than average pinch of salt. yes, because you will believe what you want to believe no matter what the number of people who thought democrats were fighting this up until the point they thought one specific tactic wasn't useful and now don't is uh well, maybe five people like they've been as vehement on the issue as possible but sometimes you can't make the media focus on what they should focus on or you want them to focus on
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 19:08
|
|
|
A huge part of the reason things are as hosed as they are is people insisting that you can only care about one thing at a time HEALTHCARE/RUSSIA IS JUST A DISTRACTION FROM RUSSIA/HEALTHCARE
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 19:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 19:09 |
|
|
evilweasel posted:the only people who think they look like they're throwing in the towel are brokebrained idiots who will believe that no matter what It's totally fair that because people can't directly see opposition that they assume it isn't happening. That doesn't make em' stupid. Though yeah, it's hard to communicate to folks who buy into any particular narrative that "poo poo's more complicated".
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 19:11
|
|