|
Submarine Sandpaper posted:is this a lifestyle center or just poo poo development? That's just a strip mall. Also, it's in Ohio. So, the answer will always be "poo poo development."
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 16:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 23:05 |
|
|
"Lifestyle centers" sound like lovely car-centric outdoor malls. What's new about that tired old concept?
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 16:44
|
|
|
ok cool. I wasn't thinking anyone could justify that mess. Fatasses and air advisories are perpetuated as it takes a half hour to drive 3 miles through and shoppers are lazy fucks who drive store to store as they're so spread.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 16:45
|
|
|
"Lifestyle Centers" usually look something like this: They are a big row of retail stores and restaurants that are set up to look like a little village. They usually have a fountain or a park with seating in the middle and a fake "main street" or road that goes through the complex.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 16:50
|
|
|
Fame Douglas posted:"Lifestyle centers" sound like lovely car-centric outdoor malls. What's new about that tired old concept? Well I mean the annoying part is they're car-centric but fake not being car centric by jamming a street with no parking or maybe a pedestrian plaza down the space between the storefronts. The pedestrian plaza ones usually end up functioning like an old-fashioned outdoor mall of the type that often got converted to an indoor mall by simply roofing over the plaza and adding doors, then removing the heavy duty exterior doors from the inward-facing bits of the stores. Of course a lot of them end up having multiple "store clusters" which turn it more annoying, especially as pedestrian paths between the clusters are often barely there or missing entirely unless you want to walk on the narrow roads directly. Submarine Sandpaper posted:is this a lifestyle center or just poo poo development? That's a standard big-box strip mall.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 16:52
|
|
|
I do not like 'lifestyle centers' because they're always out of the way, and they're always too huge to actually walk around. There will be one or two long strips of shops centered around a large anchor store, with lesser shops scattered in smaller plaza offshoots in every direction. You can't even walk to most of them because they're off a main road with no sidewalks. The combination of car-centric culture and cheap land sucks. It's more than just retail, too. When our regional hospital was built, they chose a site on cheap land in a central location to service the neighboring areas. That kind of makes sense, right? The problem is that they also built a lot of medical suites around it, and a number of doctors, dentists, etc, have moved out of their towns to set up there instead. If you don't have a car, a friend, or access to our meager bus service, you are poo poo outta luck. I guess it makes sense, in a way. If you can't afford a car, you probably can't afford medical care.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 16:55
|
|
|
NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:I do not like 'lifestyle centers' because they're always out of the way, and they're always too huge to actually walk around. There will be one or two long strips of shops centered around a large anchor store, with lesser shops scattered in smaller plaza offshoots in every direction. You can't even walk to most of them because they're off a main road with no sidewalks. The combination of car-centric culture and cheap land sucks. Yeah, and the outdoor space is usually (I think intentionally) unpleasant to actually spend any time in, with blaring music, scarce or uncomfortable furniture, lack of shade, and stupid meandering paths between things.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:18
|
|
|
Ahh that's where the overpriced furniture stores are in east cleveland. I actually prefer it to the real mall, but mostly because they have kitchen stores.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:31
|
|
|
Fame Douglas posted:"Lifestyle centers" sound like lovely car-centric outdoor malls. What's new about that tired old concept? They are walking focused and generally smaller than malls. Although clusters of separately owned strip malls are inevitable.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:47
|
|
|
Submarine Sandpaper posted:is this a lifestyle center or just poo poo development? Same difference
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:50
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:They are walking focused and generally smaller than malls. Although clusters of separately owned strip malls are inevitable. They are not walking focused - you usually can't walk to them. They are rarely smaller, they tend to have a larger area between the stores, putting the same leasable retail area in a larger footprint.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:53
|
|
|
fishmech posted:They are not walking focused - you usually can't walk to them. They are rarely smaller, they tend to have a larger area between the stores, putting the same leasable retail area in a larger footprint. Please don't get into a tism fight with the literal dumbest guy on the forums, I can't take it. They are walking-focused, that's what all the bullshit decorative swirly paths are for. They just don't reside in walking-focused communities, because: America. And pretend someone not-fishmech just made a broad, unprovable assertion like "they are rarely smaller" and sic nega-fishmech on him, because there is absolutely no metric for that and I don't want to see pages of this dumb thread disappear behind a wall of "jerk detected!" when OOCC desperately tries to clack his two brain cells together trying to chase you and your goalpost around the field. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 18:59
|
|
|
DC Murderverse posted:ooh, ooh, story time! Way back in the thread at this point, but this is the story of my last job. I was that overnight baker/delivery guy, did 6-7 hours a night 6 nights a week for three years with one sick day bexause if I called out there was nobody else. Oir customers just wouldnt get breakfast. Wasn't long before the place finally fell apart because the chef-owner got divorced and couldn't bankroll if off family money anymore. I quit when the paychecks started bouncing, along with two of the three day bakers. Great food, I had a ton of loyal wholesale customers, but profits are so often tight that a single major problem does the business in.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 20:47
|
|
|
My region has a new largests shopping centre, it's a huge sort of outdoor-trying-to-be-main-street sort of thing with a giant maze of a hosed up underground parkade under and on top of the whole thing. It's surrounded by a moat of brutally pedestrian-unfriendly highways and stroads and all the buildings turn their "backs" to the outside community, only facing inwards. The anchor is a huge 2 story wallmart and they just expanded to the left and built a huge whole-foods on top of 4 levels of parking. There's also some large offices and a big call center in some of the upper floor offices. It's basically a bunch of strip malls and disney-land main streets stacked on top of each other. It's very popular. Of course, because it's a mall, that means only chains. We have 2 other large old malls that have been both expanding and doing very well. One used to have a lot of local stores in them, very popular and beloved stores that were draws for the mall. New owners took over and decided "chains only" and kicked most all the unique stores out. I only willingly go into a mall maybe once a year and I find them super depressing. But I also do almost no online shopping. I guess I just don't buy things?? I buy groceries because I need to eat, I buy clothes but those last years. I have the furniture and kitchen equipment I need, that can last decades. How is the shop that sells greeting cards and calendars so busy all the time? Why are there 2 busy shops that sell nothing but phone cases? You buy a calendar once a year, you buy a phone case every 3-4 years as you get a new phone. How are the malls so crowded? How are people shopping so often? Where are they putting all the stuff they're constantly buying? Do people just go multiple times a week to browse but not buy things? I feel like I have retail-autism because none of it computes. Anyways, malls are absolutely booming in my neck of the woods while downtown retail continues to struggle while also being its own worst enemy by protesting pedestrian improvements and bike lanes and crying that the city doesn't demolish half the buildings downtown to provide *free parking* and turn it into a strip mall. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Jun 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 21:04
|
|
|
I'm curious about the relative construction cost of an open versus closed design.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 21:09
|
|
|
Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Please don't get into a tism fight with the literal dumbest guy on the forums, I can't take it. They are walking-focused, that's what all the bullshit decorative swirly paths are for. They just don't reside in walking-focused communities, because: America. And pretend someone not-fishmech just made a broad, unprovable assertion like "they are rarely smaller" and sic nega-fishmech on him, because there is absolutely no metric for that and I don't want to see pages of this dumb thread disappear behind a wall of "jerk detected!" when OOCC desperately tries to clack his two brain cells together trying to chase you and your goalpost around the field. Are you able to post at all without bringing up personal grudges you have? Jesus christ.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 21:13
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:How are the malls so crowded? How are people shopping so often? Where are they putting all the stuff they're constantly buying? Do people just go multiple times a week to browse but not buy things? I feel like I have retail-autism because none of it computes. You're forgetting how there's a couple hundred thousand other people around? Hundreds of thousands of people only shopping a few times a year adds up pretty quickly, deceptively so even. Add in a decent amount of weirdos who are buying a lot of whatever item category it is to increase the business of each individual store, it all adds together.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 21:29
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:I'm curious about the relative construction cost of an open versus closed design. My understanding is the big saving is on heating and cooling, which is why its all the rage now.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 21:30
|
|
|
fishmech posted:You're forgetting how there's a couple hundred thousand other people around? Hundreds of thousands of people only shopping a few times a year adds up pretty quickly, deceptively so even. Add in a decent amount of weirdos who are buying a lot of whatever item category it is to increase the business of each individual store, it all adds together. Yeah, I'm sure there's a whole spectrum from people who shop once a week to a once a year and multiply that by nearly half a million and bam, there's your mall crowds. I think that depresses me most about the crowds in malls is that in a better planned city all these people could be foot traffic in a proper "high street" urban or village shopping area rather than a claustrophobic sterile mall. Shopping should look like this  Individual buildings with a large number of separate owners housing a large number of shops. No single owner of the entire space and true democratic public spaces managed by the community rather than a single private company. Also mixed with non-shopping cultural and community activities, parks, public services. You know, an actual community. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Jun 13, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 21:37
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:I only willingly go into a mall maybe once a year and I find them super depressing. But I also do almost no online shopping. I guess I just don't buy things?? I buy groceries because I need to eat, I buy clothes but those last years. I have the furniture and kitchen equipment I need, that can last decades. How is the shop that sells greeting cards and calendars so busy all the time? Why are there 2 busy shops that sell nothing but phone cases? You buy a calendar once a year, you buy a phone case every 3-4 years as you get a new phone. How are the malls so crowded? How are people shopping so often? Where are they putting all the stuff they're constantly buying? Do people just go multiple times a week to browse but not buy things? I feel like I have retail-autism because none of it computes. Yes, some people do actually enjoy the act of buying things they don't actually need, or even the experience of just browsing. I don't understand it either, but it's absurdly popular. Mind you, I routinely look up things I will probably never, ever buy on the Internet all the time (planes, cars, whatever), and I enjoy that, so I suppose it's the same impulse. Some people just like to do that with clothes and knicknacks instead of awesome things that I like 
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 21:41
|
|
|
Tiny Brontosaurus posted:Please don't get into a tism fight with the literal dumbest guy on the forums, I can't take it. They are walking-focused, that's what all the bullshit decorative swirly paths are for. They just don't reside in walking-focused communities, because: America. And pretend someone not-fishmech just made a broad, unprovable assertion like "they are rarely smaller" and sic nega-fishmech on him, because there is absolutely no metric for that and I don't want to see pages of this dumb thread disappear behind a wall of "jerk detected!" when OOCC desperately tries to clack his two brain cells together trying to chase you and your goalpost around the field. This whole discussion seems kind of strange. There's really no practical difference between an outdoor faux street and indoor lanes in malls. Like, this is just a street with a roof over it and a focus on vertical space:  A "lifestyle center" with pedestrian only streets wouldn't be any more or less walking-centric, while one that allows people to easily drive between stores would be more car-centric. I don't understand how this is even an argument. Both are, as you say, car-centric in practical terms since they're almost always built in locations that you have to drive to. That's what really matters.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 21:55
|
|
|
Paradoxish posted:This whole discussion seems kind of strange. There's really no practical difference between an outdoor faux street and indoor lanes in malls. Like, this is just a street with a roof over it and a focus on vertical space: Exactly - the only differences from a developer's perspective are the previously-mentioned HVAC expenses (although you might lose some of that back in landscaping costs) and the fact that outdoor malls can be marketed as more upscale than indoor malls, which are increasingly dead and empty and in blighted areas. Wealthy areas are always going to have some trendy shopping center, and trends are always going to become passe. I hope that the next innovation will be actual mixed-use urban development like a European high street, but so far most American attempts at that involve lovely condos and acres of parking lots.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 22:07
|
|
|
Nothing is more upscale than being at the mercy of the elements rather than having such lower class affections like "roofs" and "air conditioning" Hell even the shopping arcades where I live have covered bits because who wants to wander around in the rain/sun when you're trying to shop? Those outdoor things look hellish.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 22:24
|
|
|
Only proles can't afford an umbrella
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 22:28
|
|
|
SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:Only proles can't afford an umbrella Presumably mounted on a hat so you can still carry your poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 22:31
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Nothing is more upscale than being at the mercy of the elements rather than having such lower class affections like "roofs" and "air conditioning" Seriously, in the complex psychology of class signalling, yes. The same way indoor carpeting was luxurious until it wasn't. It used to be a sign of wealth to have certain creature comforts, but then they got cheap and ubiquitous and now wealthy people find ways to show they don't need them. You're supposed to be fine with being outside because you're hale and hearty and live in a balmy climate.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 22:32
|
|
|
The more I learn the more I am convinced that money makes your brain leak out of your ears if you get too much of it together.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 22:33
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:Yeah, I'm sure there's a whole spectrum from people who shop once a week to a once a year and multiply that by nearly half a million and bam, there's your mall crowds. I think you have an excessively idealized view of what main street/high street shopping is actually like. In practice you don't tend to get very many stores, and a lot of the stores that are there are large chain stores just as you'd get in a mall. And that particular street scene looks a lot more claustrophobic to me than your average 70s-2000s mall design. Also "no single owner" and "democratic public spaces" often aren't really true at such shopping districts, nor are they really relevant to the actual shoppers. Particularly when you have nice parks right nearby. Hell even "individual buildings isn't true a lot of the time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 22:35
|
|
|
Also all of those shops look open and lol if that is true on the high street nowadays.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 22:37
|
|
|
fishmech posted:I think you have an excessively idealized view of what main street/high street shopping is actually like. In practice you don't tend to get very many stores, and a lot of the stores that are there are large chain stores just as you'd get in a mall. And that particular street scene looks a lot more claustrophobic to me than your average 70s-2000s mall design. This is such a middle-america perspective. That street is fine. I have no idea what high streets you've been to (or will claim you have been to in order to regain the upper hand in an internet debate), but yes, they do have "very many stores" and the presence of chains is going to vary widely by region. LA's version of that kind of street are almost all local stores or small regional chains, excepting the occasional drugstore.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 22:39
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:"Lifestyle Centers" usually look something like this: I love it when they put these in non-California climates. There are a couple of big ones in Minnesota and they're nearly unusuable for 8 months a year. Double bonus for the upscale one that had single entryways facing north for their Eat Street poo poo. Nothing like a blast of -20 air to brighten up your meal. But yeah, they're just a mall by any other name.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 22:42
|
|
|
Xae posted:I love it when they put these in non-California climates. There are a couple of big ones in Minnesota and they're nearly unusuable for 8 months a year. Double bonus for the upscale one that had single entryways facing north for their Eat Street poo poo. Bonus points for sickly palm trees ringing the "town square"
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 22:45
|
|
|
Tiny Brontosaurus posted:This is such a middle-america perspective. That street is fine. I have no idea what high streets you've been to (or will claim you have been to in order to regain the upper hand in an internet debate), but yes, they do have "very many stores" and the presence of chains is going to vary widely by region. LA's version of that kind of street are almost all local stores or small regional chains, excepting the occasional drugstore. I've never lived in "middle america". The phenomenon of being full of chains is so common that British people refer to many styles of chain stores that in America would be "mall stores" as "high street chains". OwlFancier posted:Also all of those shops look open and lol if that is true on the high street nowadays. Also this. A lot of these sorts of shopping districts in places where the concept is widespread? They're doing terribly now, and have often been doing terribly for quite some time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 22:52
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:Yeah, I'm sure there's a whole spectrum from people who shop once a week to a once a year and multiply that by nearly half a million and bam, there's your mall crowds. I live in Minnesota and for several months out or the year you need giant bulky coats and would track a ton of snow/water into each store. Why don't you put a roof over that to catch all the snow? But now you've built a giant wind tunnel and still have to deal with the cold. Let's just put some walls up on either end of that "street"! Then you'd have a great competitive advantage over places where you don't need to be messing with your gloves and shopping bags constantly! Might get stuffy in there though, and definitely too hot in the summer so we'll need some air conditioning... The entire country isn't California. (These are nice on the California coast though)
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 22:57
|
|
|
hobbesmaster posted:I live in Minnesota and for several months out or the year you need giant bulky coats and would track a ton of snow/water into each store. Why don't you put a roof over that to catch all the snow? But now you've built a giant wind tunnel and still have to deal with the cold. Let's just put some walls up on either end of that "street"! Then you'd have a great competitive advantage over places where you don't need to be messing with your gloves and shopping bags constantly! Might get stuffy in there though, and definitely too hot in the summer so we'll need some air conditioning... Pretty sure that photo's A.) not in California and B.) just a street, which I've heard even snowy climates occasionally have. Living a completely car-centric existence and never walking farther than the distance between your parking spot and the front door is a miserable and unhealthy way to live, and trends shifting the other way is a good thing for society.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 23:00
|
|
|
People will prefer convenience above all else. That's why malls are losing to online shopping. Making in person shopping more inconvenient is not going to improve sales.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 23:07
|
|
|
hobbesmaster posted:People will prefer convenience above all else. That's why malls are losing to online shopping. Making in person shopping more inconvenient is not going to improve sales. The thing about Actual Cities is shopping isn't inconvenient, because your homes are above the stores, not 20 miles away in a bedroom community filled with SUVs. You would still have to Go Outside and Interact With People so I know that's a hard pass for goonier types.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 23:09
|
|
|
Tiny Brontosaurus posted:The thing about Actual Cities is shopping isn't inconvenient, because your homes are above the stores, not 20 miles away in a bedroom community filled with SUVs. As I said Minnesota - you don't need to go outside to shop in the "Actual City" of Minneapolis.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 23:12
|
|
|
Submarine Sandpaper posted:is this a lifestyle center or just poo poo development? I think this is the thing you're looking for a couple exits south. https://goo.gl/maps/KT4pcmXGpEP2
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 23:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 23:05 |
|
|
hobbesmaster posted:As I said Minnesota - you don't need to go outside to shop in the "Actual City" of Minneapolis. Minneapolis, like all but the oldest cities in the US, is a disaster of car-centric urban planning. Just because you don't have a walkable city doesn't mean a city can never be walkable.
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2017 23:17
|
|