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Rockopolis posted:Link? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3821616
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Jun 13, 2017 19:26
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| # ? May 19, 2024 09:57 |
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Here's the thing about alternate history: no one knows so you can do whatever the gently caress you want.
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Jun 13, 2017 20:21
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Truman allows China/North Korea/North Vietnam to join in full Statehood, and peacefully the United States embraces the glory of Communism; looking back, the defining point was when the dollar was abolished in favor of a social labor-based currency, and Truman's ringing endorsement of "the buck stops *here*."
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Jun 13, 2017 21:06
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Giving Them More Hell I fired him [MacArthur] because he wouldn't respect the authority of the President ... I didn't fire him because he was a dumb son of a bitch, although he was, but that's not against the law for generals. If it was, half to three-quarters of them would be in jail.[174] Harry S. Truman to biographer Merle Miller, 1972, posthumously quoted in Time magazine, 1973.
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Jun 13, 2017 21:35
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Bagheera posted:Can you recommend resources on the US military in the late 19th century? Roughly from the end of Reconstruction to the Spanish American war. The Navy rotted away, in a very real sense, almost to nothingness in the aftermath of the Civil War. It was built on big wooden steam frigates with full sailing rigs and wooden-hulled ironclad monitors. Development and new construction stagnated, old armaments were stockpiled, and ships decayed at their moorings until refitted or reconstructed. The American merchant fleet also remained fixated on the wooden sailing ships (or, more commonly, barques) of yesteryear. Meanwhile, the European navies were doing things like inventing the battleship. Rebirth was authorized in 1886 with the small battleships Texas (NB: not the museum ship in Houston) and Maine (of explosive fame), although construction was protracted and neither ship was commissioned until 1895. The year 1888 saw the founding of the American Society of Naval Engineers (ASNE), the first such professional organization in the United States, followed by the founding the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers (SNAME) in 1893. Between them, these two organizations hosted most of the men responsible for the technical aspects of naval revitalization. The United States built numerous battleships and cruisers through the 1890s until by the time of the Spanish-American War it boasted a modern fleet suitable for a great power.
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Jun 13, 2017 21:49
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The US built a ton of predreads at a breathtaking pace. Some of them were economy models and therefore trash, but there were a lot of them. They were also somewhat hampered by the lack of a good quick firing gun early on (or just having 5" ones when the state of the art is 6"), so you see 8" guns added on and Europeans wondering what the heck those crazy Americans are doing with those huge gun batteries and the Americans are justifying it by the 8" guns being able to possibly wreck the lighter armored sections and knock out secondaries. It's not until the North Carolina class that the US really sacrifices elsewhere for gun armament again, too.
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Jun 13, 2017 22:23
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Cyrano4747 posted:Here's the thing about alternate history: no one knows so you can do whatever the gently caress you want. Asks Alternate History folks: Could have Truman (through the 1945 Marshall Mission to China) been able to form a non-aggression pact with Mao, even in favor of him over the KMT? quote:The Chinese lobby in America was Nationalist. American business had a lot to lose should the communists prove victorious. A lot of political clout to overcome there.
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Jun 13, 2017 22:52
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Avoid reading a post that bad and stop asking yourself unanswerable what if questions. Just my two cents.
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Jun 13, 2017 23:04
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Would it have been better if the WW2 allies had not invaded Italy? edit: poo poo this was kind of inappropriate after the last several posts I hadn't read the thread in a while.
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Jun 14, 2017 00:14
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Baron Porkface posted:Would it have been better if the WW2 allies had not invaded Italy? It probably would have been worse. Not invading Italy doesn't really speed up Overlord, and the Soviets would have gone apeshit if the WAllies sat around for the better part of a year doing nothing on the ground. Also, Italy did help with the continued shakedown of the US Army into an effective fighting force, and it did open another front, diverting more and more troops and logistics from other places.
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Jun 14, 2017 00:24
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MANime in the sheets posted:It probably would have been worse. Not invading Italy doesn't really speed up Overlord, and the Soviets would have gone apeshit if the WAllies sat around for the better part of a year doing nothing on the ground. On the other hand though, it lead to the direct acquisition of the northern half of Italy by Germany, and Italy's industry was almost entirely concentrated in the German half. Aside from the simple acquisition of additional tools and equipment, the Germans were able to capture 800,000 Italian soldiers. These soldiers were deported to Germany proper and used as slave labor in agriculture, industry, mining, and civilian and military construction. The Germans considered the Italians "traitors," not POWs, and so their treatment was particularly bad. An additional 100,000 men served in the Italian puppet state or in the Germany army. Also, the Italian manufacturing community had grown increasingly opposed to the war and in secret, began in at least early 1942 or possibly late 1941 to curtail production and stockpile raw materials and intermediate products for use when the war was over. The wealth of raw materials that had been stashed away for post war use shocked and pleased the Germans, and they wasted no time in exploiting this unexpected bonanza.
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Jun 14, 2017 01:50
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Grouchio posted:You'd think that, but: Just post stuff. See what the voters want to do. Give plausible consequences. If you want to make it more ~*~authentic~*~, use HoI4 as your prop or something. Maps help.
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Jun 14, 2017 03:06
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bedpan posted:On the other hand though, it lead to the direct acquisition of the northern half of Italy by Germany, and Italy's industry was almost entirely concentrated in the German half. Aside from the simple acquisition of additional tools and equipment, the Germans were able to capture 800,000 Italian soldiers. These soldiers were deported to Germany proper and used as slave labor in agriculture, industry, mining, and civilian and military construction. The Germans considered the Italians "traitors," not POWs, and so their treatment was particularly bad. An additional 100,000 men served in the Italian puppet state or in the Germany army. Fair enough. I dont have any numbers to back this up, but my impression was that, especially in the last year or two of the war, Germany's issue was more a lack of raw materials than factories or labor. Plus, Italy opened up a whole new avenue for atrategic bombing, and stretched their fighters even further. Not to mention how much better it made the WAllies logistical situation, especially the UK's, removing most of the Italian navy, strategic ports, and airfields from consideration. The Italian campaign takes a lot of crap, but I really don't see what else they could have done in '42 and '43. It was better than the other options, and they couldn't just sit and prep for France. An invasion over the Channel in '43 may have worked, but it would have been much smaller and riskier. The only other options on the table were Greece/Balkans, Spain, or Norway. Greece would have pissed off Stalin something fierce and needed Italy out of the picture anyway, Spain had a whole other set of problems, and Norway would have, by necessity, been small and not at all strategically decisive. And after Sicily and the Italian surrender, rhe Germans would have occupied N. Italy regardless.
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Jun 14, 2017 03:42
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Nebakenezzer posted:Giving Them More Hell Ah on the subject of firing generals for not respecting the President, has anyone else seen War Machine? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIO_BFCf8fU I thought over all it was a pretty gentle satire of the American military and officers. However one reviewer in the Washington Post found it too hard on the McChrystal stand-in, but had to admit his military friend liked it. "Washington Post posted:I took an Afghan war vet to Brad Pitt’s bad, anti-military movie. He liked it. I mean compared to other satirical characters like Robert Duvall's Lt. Colonel Kilgore from Apocalypse Now, Glenn McMahon is very sympathetic, it's just that he suffers from that great classical heroic flaw, hubris. Still it seems the film ruffled a lot of feathers. Squalid fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 04:39
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bedpan posted:These soldiers were deported to Germany proper and used as slave labor As usual the Germans make the strategically correct decision 3 years too late.
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Jun 14, 2017 04:46
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I watched War Machine the other night, I really enjoyed it. It had a number of what I thought were absolutely excellent scenes. *minor spoilers* The scene about medals for heroic restraint, highlight how absolutely confused the grunts are about how they can do their job or what their job really even is. With the politician questioning McMahon in his presentation, pointing out that this is what his entire career has built up to and how much personal value he has in winning. The talk with the villagers after the firefight, pointing out that roads and schools are nice, but the US marines are leaving, and when they leave, it will be worse for them because of what the Taliban will do to them for "helping". And just asking them to leave, repeatedly. Does a good job of demonstrating how unwinnable the war is, lack of political will to win it and how important it is for the military top echelon, to win it.
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Jun 14, 2017 04:51
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Squalid posted:Ah on the subject of firing generals for not respecting the President, has anyone else seen War Machine? I'm only about a half hour into it and I can totally see why film critics gave it meh/bad reviews but also why military folk love this poo poo. Talk about catering to an audience, and not a military audience eager for a dick-jerkin' good time of heroism and explosions.
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Jun 14, 2017 05:15
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Grouchio posted:What could've Truman done differently in regards to handling China, Korea and Vietnam? If truman had done things differently then the history of Asia would be significantly different compared to what it is now.
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Jun 14, 2017 05:18
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MANime in the sheets posted:The only other options on the table were Greece/Balkans, Spain, or Norway. Greece would have pissed off Stalin something fierce and needed Italy out of the picture anyway, Spain had a whole other set of problems, and Norway would have, by necessity, been small and not at all strategically decisive. And after Sicily and the Italian surrender, rhe Germans would have occupied N. Italy regardless. What exactly would the Allies be doing in Spain? Genuinely don't know anything about any plans they had in that area.
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Jun 14, 2017 05:56
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mlmp08 posted:I'm only about a half hour into it and I can totally see why film critics gave it meh/bad reviews but also why military folk love this poo poo. Talk about catering to an audience, and not a military audience eager for a dick-jerkin' good time of heroism and explosions. Yeah, it seems like most people that got really mad are persons who worked directly with McChrystal and are offended that Brad Pitt's caricature isn't flattering enough, but really that's a silly criticism for a comedy. Foreign Policy has a review up by someone who was on his Strategic Assessment Team titled Screw Brad Pitt and the 'War Machine' He Rode in On
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Jun 14, 2017 06:31
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It's a poor movie in cinematic terms, though. It's boringly shot, the performances and themes are inconsistent, and it doesn't have much by way of an emotional development. It doesn't know what it is.
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Jun 14, 2017 06:40
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StandardVC10 posted:What exactly would the Allies be doing in Spain? Genuinely don't know anything about any plans they had in that area. Spain contributed a division to Barbarossa, traded freely with Germany (helping circumvent the blockade), and contributed to some degree in supplying the U-boats. I'm not super well versed in what they did, but they were very definitely involved. Plus, there is the whole Spanish civil war and Franco being a fascist to consider. Not to mention entertaining German proposals regarding Gibraltar and the surrounding areas in mid 1940, or possibly a very amateurish attempt to kidnap/coerce a member of the British royal family (I've only seen this discussed in one place, I don't know if it actually happened). All in all, they were on the wrong side of neutrality, and the WAllies knew it. The bottom line was that adding them as a full belligerent had more downside than up, and pretty much every argument for attacking Spain was far more true for Italy.
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Jun 14, 2017 08:18
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And if the Germans managed to form a defensive line across the Pyrenees, that would be *fun* to try and advance across.
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Jun 14, 2017 08:31
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While it is unprovable, and I don't know of anybody who has tried gaming it out or simply tried to extrapolate, I can't help but feel that a Republican victory in the SCW (perhaps by lessening their ties to Communism and thus getting better international support) a really interesting alt-hist scenario for WWII.
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Jun 14, 2017 08:46
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Grouchio posted:You'd think that, but: Roll a d10. 1 to 5 is a no, 6 to 10 is a yes, with numbers further away from 5 causing more chaos in the setting. BattleMoose posted:War Machine I found it a bit difficult to watch because it felt like the movie was a satire, and at the same time it's supposed to be a character study of McChrystal ... but McMahon is himself a caricature, so there's like a couple of levels of irony working simultaneously. The War College podcast by Reuters had two episodes on Afghanistan with journalist Douglas Wissing, and I thought that was a better overview of the situation.
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Jun 14, 2017 08:52
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Gnoman posted:While it is unprovable, and I don't know of anybody who has tried gaming it out or simply tried to extrapolate, I can't help but feel that a Republican victory in the SCW (perhaps by lessening their ties to Communism and thus getting better international support) a really interesting alt-hist scenario for WWII. 
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Jun 14, 2017 09:36
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feedmegin posted:'What's that lovely artillery piece with the teeny tiny barrel over there - it's a Maxim gun, you say? Doesn't look like it should be much threat' even in 1914 ToE was like four very not mobile machine guns per regiment so I feel pretty safe in saying that your average Grand Armee colonel could figure it out.
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Jun 14, 2017 10:20
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MANime in the sheets posted:The only other options on the table were Greece/Balkans, Spain, or Norway. Greece would have pissed off Stalin something fierce and needed Italy out of the picture anyway, Spain had a whole other set of problems, and Norway would have, by necessity, been small and not at all strategically decisive. And after Sicily and the Italian surrender, rhe Germans would have occupied N. Italy regardless. Why not invade Turkey also?
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Jun 14, 2017 10:34
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Gnoman posted:While it is unprovable, and I don't know of anybody who has tried gaming it out or simply tried to extrapolate, I can't help but feel that a Republican victory in the SCW (perhaps by lessening their ties to Communism and thus getting better international support) a really interesting alt-hist scenario for WWII. there's gay black hitler dumb poo poo and then there's actively falsifiable counterfactuals which are even more stupid, good God.
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Jun 14, 2017 10:36
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https://s1.webmshare.com/6rVGo.webm
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Jun 14, 2017 12:04
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MANime in the sheets posted:An invasion over the Channel in '43 may have worked, but it would have been much smaller and riskier. We know exactly what it would have looked like, actually, it's called Dieppe.
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Jun 14, 2017 12:45
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OwlFancier posted:But broadly you need it long enough to put good spin on the projectile, and long enough for the propellant to burn and expand and get the projectile up to speed. Heavier projectile takes longer to accelerate both in velocity and spin, more propellant takes longer to fully expand and impart all its energy into the round. If you cut the barrel down the round might not get much spin so it'll tumble and go off course/lose energy faster, and the propellant will just escape out the end of the barrel as soon as the round leaves. I realize the thread has moved on, but getting spin on a projectile doesn't require more than 2 inches or so of rifling. It's how, for example, rifles choke tubes and fitz specials can still be effective. Barrel length also only really matters for ease of aiming, rather than any kind of mechanical accuracy on the shot. Grouchio posted:What could've Truman done differently in regards to handling China, Korea and Vietnam? Lots of things. This is a very broadly worded question, but I'll proffer some half-way worthwhile answers. There was a chance before the war that Truman was considering abandoning Chiang and Taiwan to the Chinese, and that would have been a good step toward a reunified Korea, and would have lessened Chinese worries about US expansion into China. In fact it was the North Korean invasion in the first place which made him decide to protect Taiwan, because it instilled in him the belief that the communists were a monolithic political Bloc. This is also interesting because MacArthur's understanding was more nuanced and accurate. He also could have adopted Ridgway's idea of fighting up to the narrow neck of Korea around the Pyongyang-Wonsan line and fortifying the hell out of it, which would have been able to last our Korean and Chinese offensives for the rest of the war. Truman also could have also taken more strenuous measures to avoid crossing the 38th parallel and provoking China into the war in the first place. Idk about Vietnam, but in all cases he could have used more nukes. Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 14:53
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Gnoman posted:While it is unprovable, and I don't know of anybody who has tried gaming it out or simply tried to extrapolate, I can't help but feel that a Republican victory in the SCW (perhaps by lessening their ties to Communism and thus getting better international support) a really interesting alt-hist scenario for WWII. Haha, wow, I don't even know where to begin. Who were you expecting to help these magical centrist Republicans?
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Jun 14, 2017 14:58
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Here's a video of some guys shooting ACW artillery at an APC. It's taken from down range so you can hear what getting shot at by cannons sounds like. It sounds scary as hell. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL1DkrYL70s
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Jun 14, 2017 15:03
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zoux posted:Here's a video of some guys shooting ACW artillery at an APC. It's taken from down range so you can hear what getting shot at by cannons sounds like. It sounds scary as hell. Goddamn the sound when they skip off the ground  also color me surprised how much they gently caress up that APC.
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Jun 14, 2017 15:08
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Cyrano4747 posted:Goddamn the sound when they skip off the ground It sounds like the old school 50's TV western ricochet sound. Also, are those rounds near supersonic? You see the smoke from the cannon, and you hear the report it seems right before the round hits. zoux fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 15:18
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zoux posted:It sounds like the old school 50's TV western ricochet sound. Yeah, it sounds like they're just under the speed of sound. It's a big change from how movies like The Patriot depicted cannonballs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcaQerCQdk0
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Jun 14, 2017 15:25
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Ensign Expendable posted:Haha, wow, I don't even know where to begin. Who were you expecting to help these magical centrist Republicans? Given that I was drunk when I posted that, and have no idea where I was going with it, I dunno.
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Jun 14, 2017 15:58
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Quote taken from Status and Experience Report on the Campaign in Poland from the 1. leichte Division - 4 October 1939quote:The big surprise during the first days in combat was that a hit from an anti-tank gun did not automatically result in killing the Panzer crew. Out of five hits, usually only one penetrated the armor. When a Panzer was penetrated, usually only one of the crew was killed. Drivers and radio operators were in the most danger. This revelation significantly raised the crews 'fighting spirit'.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:07
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| # ? May 19, 2024 09:57 |
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zoux posted:It sounds like the old school 50's TV western ricochet sound. The first time I got shot at I was literally laughing at the sounds the bullets made being exactly the same as they are in a bugs bunny cartoon. \ Also that cannon video is badass, it actually made me a little uncomfortable being at the downrange end of that thing.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:15
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