Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

«‹›100 »

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

Prism posted:

Either way, even if you knew how Harry's method works but couldn't do it yourself, thus losing your animal Patronus, you'd still presumably have the ability to cast an incorporeal Patronus ... Not quite as good, but still better defenses against Dementors than most wizards get.

Quirrell mentioned before that the Order of the Phoenix has a secret trick where they can use corporeal Patroni to send messages that cannot be intercepted or forged. (I think it's from the books?)

I don't think that trick works with an incorporeal Patronus, and it's far more strategically important than the ability to defend from Dementors (as Quirrell also mentioned way back, you can just teleport away from them).

# ? Jun 6, 2017 03:09

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 17, 2024 01:59

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Yud loves cults with secret knowledge, it's hard not to see the influence of that here.

NihilCredo posted:

Quirrell mentioned before that the Order of the Phoenix has a secret trick where they can use corporeal Patroni to send messages that cannot be intercepted or forged. (I think it's from the books?)

Yeah, it's done a few times, especially in book 7 (eg Kingsley warning the wedding, and Snape leading Ron and Harry to the sword).

# ? Jun 6, 2017 03:25

Prism: Dec 22, 2007; yospos

NihilCredo posted:

Quirrell mentioned before that the Order of the Phoenix has a secret trick where they can use corporeal Patroni to send messages that cannot be intercepted or forged. (I think it's from the books?)

I don't think that trick works with an incorporeal Patronus, and it's far more strategically important than the ability to defend from Dementors (as Quirrell also mentioned way back, you can just teleport away from them).

It is, as Doctor Spaceman said, and I legitimately forgot about it, so that's a valid point.

# ? Jun 6, 2017 04:42

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004

Tiggum posted:

It's amusing to replace Yudkowsky's version of McGonagall with the original in these scenarios and just imagine how little patience she would have for this Harry's bullshit.

You know, the image of Dame Smith just backhanding a smug little Yudling is heartwarming.

# ? Jun 6, 2017 08:22

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 47: Personhood Theory (part 1)

quote:

There comes a point in every plot where the victim starts to suspect; and looks back, and sees a trail of events all pointing in a single direction. And when that point comes, Father had explained, the prospect of the loss may seem so unbearable, and admitting themselves tricked may seem so humiliating, that the victim will yet deny the plot, and the game may continue long after.

Father had warned Draco not to do that again.

First, though, he'd let Mr. Avery finish eating all of the cookies he'd swindled from Draco, while Draco watched and cried. The whole lovely jar of cookies that Father had given him just a few hours earlier, for Draco had lost all of them to Mr. Avery, down to the very last one.

So it was a familiar feeling that Draco had felt in the pit of his stomach, when Gregory told him about The Kiss.

Sometimes you looked back, and saw things...

In a lightless classroom - you couldn't quite call it unused any more, since it'd seen weekly use over the last few months - a boy sat enshrouded in a hooded cowl, with an unlighted crystal globe on the desk in front of him. Thinking in silence, thinking in darkness, waiting for an opening door to let in the light

...

What had ended up happening as the result of Draco and Granger fighting Harry Potter together... was that Draco had started to feel a lot friendlier toward Granger.

Who benefited from the scion of Malfoy becoming friends with a mudblood witch?

Who benefited, that was famous for exactly that sort of plot?

Who benefited, that could possibly be pulling Harry Potter's strings?

Dumbledore.

...

quote:

"I have an important question to ask you," said Harry, "but there's something else I want us to do before that."

Draco said nothing, feeling a certain weariness. Part of him just wanted it all to be over with already.

"Tell me, Draco," said Harry. "Why don't Muggles ever leave ghosts behind when they die?"

"Because Muggles don't have souls, obviously," Draco said. He didn't even realize until after he'd said it that it might contradict Harry's politics, and then he didn't care. Besides, it was obvious.

Harry's face showed no surprise. "Before I ask my important question, I want to see if you can learn the Patronus Charm."

For a moment the sheer nonsequitur stumped Draco. Good old impossible-to-predict-or-understand Harry Potter. There were times when Draco wondered whether Harry was deliberately this disorienting as a tactic.

Then Draco understood, and shoved himself up and away from his desk in a single angry motion. That was it. It was over. "Like Dumbledore's servants," he spat.

"Like Salazar Slytherin," Harry said steadily.

Draco almost stumbled over his own feet in the middle of his first stride toward the door.

Slowly, Draco turned back toward Harry.

"I don't know where you came up with that," said Draco, "but it's wrong, everyone knows the Patronus Charm is a Gryffindor spell -"

"Salazar Slytherin could cast a corporeal Patronus Charm," Harry said. Harry's hand darted into his robes, brought out a book whose title was written as white on green, and so almost impossible to read in the green light; but it looked old.

See, it's in a book, and Harriezer wouldn't lie about the contents of books.

Actually, the whole thing about Slytherins not being able to cast a Patronus spell (HPMOR or HP?) seems a fairly recent belief, as the book never mentions it.

quote:

Harry closed the book and put it into his pouch. "Chaos and Sunshine both have soldiers that can cast corporeal Patronus Charms. Corporeal Patronuses can be used to convey messages. If you can't learn the spell, Dragon Army will be at a severe military disadvantage -"

Draco didn't care about that right now, and told Harry so. His voice was sharper than it probably should have been.

Harry didn't blink. "Then I'm calling in the favor you owe me from that time I stopped a riot from breaking out, on our first day of broomstick lessons. I'm going to try to teach you the Patronus Charm, and for my favor, I want you to do your honest best to learn and cast it. I trust to the honor of House Malfoy that you will."

Draco felt that certain weariness again. If Harry had asked at any other time, it would have been a fair return on favor owed, given that it wasn't actually a Gryffindor spell. But...

"Why? " Draco said.

"To find out whether you can do this thing that Salazar Slytherin could do," Harry said evenly. "This is an experimental test, and I will not tell you what it means until after you have done it. Will you?"

...

quote:

Draco heard Harry's footsteps entering the classroom, but Draco didn't turn to look.

Harry didn't say anything either. The silence stretched.

Finally -

"What does this mean? " Draco said. His voice wavered a bit.

"It means you love your father," Harry's voice said. Which was just what Draco had been thinking, and trying not to cry in front of Harry. It was too right, just too right -

Before Draco, on the floor, was the shining form of a snake that Draco recognized; a Blue Krait, a snake first brought to their manor by Lord Abraxas Malfoy after a visit to some faraway land, and Father had kept a Blue Krait in the ophidiarium ever since. The thing about the Blue Krait was that the bite wouldn't hurt much. Father had said that, and told Draco that he was never allowed to pet the snake, no matter who was watching. The venom killed your nerves so fast that you didn't have time to feel pain as the poison spread. You could die of it even after using Healing Charms. It ate other snakes. It was as Slytherin as any creature could possibly be.

That was why a Blue Krait head had been forged into the handle of Father's cane.

quote:

And then Draco realized -

"But," Draco said, still staring at the beautifully radiant snake, "you can't cast the Patronus Charm." Now that Draco had cast it himself, he understood why that was important. You could be evil, like Dumbledore, and still cast the Patronus Charm, so long as you had something bright left inside you. But if Harry Potter didn't have a single thought inside him that shone like that -

"The Patronus Charm is more complicated than you think, Draco," Harry said seriously. "Not everyone who fails at casting it is a bad person, or even unhappy. But anyway, I can cast it. I did it on my second try, after I realized what I'd done wrong facing the Dementor my first time. But, well, my life gets a little peculiar sometimes, and my Patronus came out strange, and I'm keeping it a secret for now -"

"Am I supposed to just believe that?"

"You can ask Professor Quirrell if you don't believe me," said Harry. "Ask him whether Harry Potter can cast a corporeal Patronus, and tell him that I told you to ask. He'd know the request was from me, no one else would know."

quote:

"I wonder," Harry said softly, "when it was, which year, which generation, that Slytherins stopped trying to learn the Patronus Charm. When it was that people started to think, that Slytherins themselves started to think, that being cunning and ambitious was the same as being cold and unhappy. And if Salazar knew that his students didn't even bother showing up to learn the Patronus Charm any more, I wonder, would he wish that he'd never been born? I wonder how it all went wrong, when Slytherin's House went wrong."

The shining creature winked out, the turmoil rising in Draco making it impossible to sustain the Charm. Draco spun on Harry, he had to control himself not to raise his wand. "What do you know about Slytherin House or Salazar Slytherin? You were never Sorted into my House, what gives you the right to -"

And that was when Draco finally realized.

"You did get Sorted into Slytherin! " Draco said. "You did, and afterwards you, you somehow, you snapped your fingers -" Draco had once asked Father if it would be cleverer to get Sorted into some other House so that everyone would trust him, and Father had smiled and said that he'd thought of that too at Draco's age, but there was no way to fool the Sorting Hat...

...not until Harry Potter came along.

How had he ever bought for one minute that Harry was a Ravenclaw?

"An interesting hypothesis," Harry said equably. "Do you know, you're the second person in Hogwarts to come up with a theory along those lines? At least you're the second that's actually said so to my face -"

"Snape," Draco said with certainty. His Head of House was no fool.

"Professor Quirrell, of course," said Harry. "Though come to think, Severus did ask me how I managed to stay out of his House, and whether I had something the Sorting Hat wanted. I suppose you could say you're number three. Oh, but Professor Quirrell's theory was a little different than yours, though. May I have your word not to repeat it?"

Draco nodded without even really thinking about it. What was he supposed to do, say no?

"Professor Quirrell thought that Dumbledore wasn't happy with the Hat's choice for the Boy-Who-Lived."

And the instant Harry said it, Draco knew, he knew that it was true, it was just obvious. Who did Dumbledore even think he was fooling?

...well, besides every single other person in Hogwarts except Snape and Quirrell, Harry might even believe it himself...

quote:

"The whole thing with the gloves and making us climb up the walls of Hogwarts, the only point was to make me and Granger more friendly toward each other. And even before then. You've been plotting it for a really long time. Since the beginning."

Again the nod.

"WHYYYYY? "

Harry's eyebrows lifted for a moment, the only reaction he showed to Draco shrieking so loudly in the closed classroom that it hurt his own ears. WHY, WHY, WHY did Harry Potter DO this sort of thing...

Then Harry said, "So that Slytherins will be able to cast the Patronus Charm again."

"That... doesn't... make... SENSE! " Draco was aware that he was losing control of his voice, but he didn't seem able to stop himself. "What does that have to do with Granger? "

"Patterns," Harry said. His face was very serious now, and very grave. "Like a quarter of children born to Squib couples being wizards. A simple, unmistakable pattern you would recognize instantly, if you knew what you were looking at; even though, if you didn't know, you wouldn't even realize it was a clue. The poison in Slytherin House is something that's been seen before in the Muggle world.

...

"To sum up," Harry finished, "they don't have any power themselves. They don't have any wealth themselves. If they didn't have Muggleborns to hate, if all the Muggleborns vanished the way they say they want, they'd wake up one morning and find they had nothing. But so long as they can say purebloods are superior, they can feel superior themselves, they can feel like part of the master class. Even though your father would never dream of inviting them to dinner, even though there's not one Galleon in their vaults, even if they did worse on their OWLs than the worst Muggleborn in Hogwarts. Even if they can't cast the Patronus Charm any more. Everything is the Muggleborns' fault to them, they have someone besides themselves to blame for their own failures, and that makes them even weaker. That's what Slytherin House is becoming, pathetic, and the root of the problem is hating Muggleborns."

"Salazar Slytherin himself said that mudbloods needed to be cast out! That they were weakening our blood -" Draco's voice had risen to a shout.

"Salazar was wrong as a question of simple fact! You know that, Draco! And that hatred is poisoning your whole House, you couldn't cast the Patronus Charm using a thought like that!"

"Then why could Salazar Slytherin cast the Patronus Charm?"

Harry was wiping sweat from his forehead. "Because things have changed between then and now! Listen, Draco, three hundred years ago you could find great scientists, as great as Salazar in their own way, who would have told you that some other Muggles were inferior because of their skin color -"

"Skin color? " said Draco.

"I know, skin color instead of anything important like blood purity, isn't it ridiculous? But then something in the world changed, and now you can't find any great scientists who still think skin color should matter, only loser people like the ones I described to you. Salazar Slytherin made the mistake when everyone else was making it, because he grew up believing it, not because he was desperate for someone to hate. There were a few people who did better than everyone else around them, and they were exceptionally good. But the ones who just accepted what everyone else thought weren't exceptionally evil. The sad fact is that most people just don't notice a moral issue at all unless someone else is pointing it out to them; and once they're as old as Salazar was when he met Godric, they've lost the ability to change their minds. Only then Hogwarts was built, and Hogwarts started sending acceptance letters to Muggleborns like Godric insisted, and more and more people began to notice that Muggleborns weren't any different. Now it's a big political issue instead of something that everyone just believes without thinking about it. And the correct answer is that Muggleborns aren't any weaker than purebloods. So now the people who end up siding with what Salazar once believed, are either people who grew up in very closed pureblood environments like you, or people who are so pathetic themselves that they're desperate for someone to feel superior to, people who love to hate."
...

"And anyone who doesn't want Hermione Granger to die, won't want to hang around the sort of people who do! That's all people think Slytherin is now, not clever planning, not trying to achieve greatness, just hating Muggleborns! I paid Morag a Sickle to ask Padma why she hadn't gone to Slytherin, we both know she got the option. And Morag told me that Padma just gave her a look and said that she wasn't Pansy Parkinson. You see? The best students with the virtues of more than one House, the students with choices, they go under the Hat thinking anywhere but Slytherin, and someone like Padma ends up in Ravenclaw. And... I think the Sorting Hat tries to maintain a balance in the Sorting, so it fills out the ranks of Slytherin with anyone who isn't repelled by all the hatred. So instead of Padma Patil, Slytherin gets Pansy Parkinson. She's not very cunning, and she's not very ambitious, but she's the sort of person who doesn't mind what Slytherin is turning into. And the more Padmas go to Ravenclaw and the more Pansies go to Slytherin, the more the process accelerates. It's destroying Slytherin House, Draco! "

...

"I can't -" Draco said, but he wasn't even sure what he couldn't do - "What do you want from me?"

"I'm not sure how to heal Slytherin House," Harry said slowly. "But I know it's something you and I will end up having to do. It took centuries for science to dawn over the Muggle world, it only happened slowly, but the stronger science got, the further that sort of hatred retreated.

...

But the Enlightenment is something that you and I belong to now, both of us. Fixing Slytherin House is just one of the things we have to do."

"Let me think," Draco said, his voice coming out in something of a croak, "please," and he rested his head in his hands, and thought.

I'm actually against this.

Yes, I'm in favor of turning the houses into more than "heroes, baddies, non-hero smarties and the other house". But if you're going to go through the trouble of doing so, reverting Slythern back to "more than anything, the baddies" is kinda lame. I'm honestly not entirely sure if the question of racism in the wizarding community can be so easily divided into Slyth and non-Slyth. In fact, I'm confident that it can't be, otherwise Volidy's takeover wouldn't have been half as easy.

quote:

Draco thought for a while, with his palms over his eyes to shut out the world, no sound but his and Harry's breathing. All the persuasive reasonableness of what Harry said, the evident grains of truth that it contained; and against that, the obvious, the perfectly and entirely obvious hypothesis about what was really going on...

After a time, Draco finally raised his head.

"It sounds right," Draco said quietly.

A huge smile broke out on Harry's face.

"So," Draco continued, "is this where you bring me to Dumbledore, to make it official?"

He kept his voice very casual as he said it.

"Oh, yeah," Harry said. "That was the thing I was going to ask you about, actually -"

Draco's blood froze in his veins, froze solid and shattered -

"Professor Quirrell said something to me that got me thinking, and, well, no matter how you answer this question, I'm already stupid for having not asked you a lot earlier. Everyone in Gryffindor thinks Dumbledore is a saint, the Hufflepuffs think he's crazy, the Ravenclaws are all proud of themselves for having worked out that he's only pretending to be crazy, but I never asked anyone in Slytherin. I'm supposed to know better than to make that sort of mistake. But if even you think Dumbledore's okay to conspire with on fixing Slytherin House, I guess I didn't miss anything important."

Draco is flabbergasted at his all too clever subterfuge being foiled.

quote:

But if Harry really didn't know about Dumbledore, then warning him had to take precedence over everything.

"All right," Draco said, after he'd had a chance to organize his thoughts. "I don't know where to start, so I'll just start somewhere." Draco drew a deep breath. This was going to take a while. "Dumbledore murdered his little sister, and got away with it because his brother wouldn't testify against him -"

# ? Jun 8, 2017 12:18

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Xander77 posted:

Yes, I'm in favor of turning the houses into more than "heroes, baddies, non-hero smarties and the other house". But if you're going to go through the trouble of doing so, reverting Slythern back to "more than anything, the baddies" is kinda lame. I'm honestly not entirely sure if the question of racism in the wizarding community can be so easily divided into Slyth and non-Slyth. In fact, I'm confident that it can't be, otherwise Volidy's takeover wouldn't have been half as easy.

I think the big mistake Yudkowsky makes is in assuming that Hogwarts houses matter outside of Hogwarts. Like all of Magical Britain is divided into these four factions. I could be wrong, but I think Rowling intended them to be more in line with actual school houses, ie. if you went to that school and you were in that house, you'd be trivially pleased that your kids were in it too. But your adult friends? You probably don't even know, much less care what house they were in. In fact, in the later years of school you've probably got friends in all four houses because you're starting to pay more attention to professional sport than school sports and politics rather than house rivalries, etc.

Yes, there is the thing where all dark wizards are Slytherins (if they went to school in Britain), but that's just because their defining trait is ambition and you don't turn to dark and forbidden magic if you're not ambitious. It doesn't make Slytherins. And even that's dubious, because Lockhart was pretty ambitious and terrible and he wasn't a Slytherin.

Actually I think Americans in general make much more of the houses than was intended just because their schools don't have them, so they stand out and seem important. :shrug:

# ? Jun 8, 2017 15:00

divabot: Jun 17, 2015; A polite little mouse!

In the Wizard of Whoa! thread on Spacebattles, I think this is around where the text was just too relentlessly awful to read any more, and I started just skipping through his commentary. So please be snide and sneer cultury :-D

# ? Jun 8, 2017 15:19

Death Bot: Mar 4, 2007; Binary killing machines, turning 1 into 0 since 0011000100111001 0011011100110110

While it might be possible that Americans overblow the whole house thing, at the beginning of the sorting bit in the first book it's already established that all the Weasleys go into Gryffindor and all the Malfoys go to Slytherin, and both are treated as a matter of pride. Obviously we only view this through the lens of the children characters, but it seems like something with a little more weight than you're implying? And almost every antagonist character is a Slytherin so it's never really disproved that that is the evil house, though I feel like I remember Rowling saying she regrets not mixing them up.

That said, it isn't really clear whether Yud thinks he's tackling a problem with the books (that he hasn't read) or if he's just using the medium to make a point about ~~bigotry/racism~~ rationality or whatever.

# ? Jun 8, 2017 15:55

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Dumbledore should have been in Slytherin.

# ? Jun 8, 2017 16:00

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

Doctor Spaceman posted:

Dumbledore should have been in Slytherin.

quote:

And talk about your foregone conclusions. Harry didn't see why Hermione had been so tense about it. In what weird alternative universe would that girl not be Sorted into Ravenclaw? If Hermione Granger didn't go to Ravenclaw then there was no good reason for Ravenclaw House to exist.

# ? Jun 8, 2017 16:41

kvx687: Dec 29, 2009; Soiled Meat

Xander77 posted:

Actually, the whole thing about Slytherins not being able to cast a Patronus spell (HPMOR or HP?) seems a fairly recent belief, as the book never mentions it.

MoR. Snape being able to cast a Patronus is a major plot point in Deathly Hallows, though it isn't revealed until after the fact.

# ? Jun 9, 2017 00:37

Dabir: Nov 10, 2012

Tiggum posted:

I think the big mistake Yudkowsky makes is in assuming that Hogwarts houses matter outside of Hogwarts. Like all of Magical Britain is divided into these four factions. I could be wrong, but I think Rowling intended them to be more in line with actual school houses, ie. if you went to that school and you were in that house, you'd be trivially pleased that your kids were in it too. But your adult friends? You probably don't even know, much less care what house they were in. In fact, in the later years of school you've probably got friends in all four houses because you're starting to pay more attention to professional sport than school sports and politics rather than house rivalries, etc.

Yes, there is the thing where all dark wizards are Slytherins (if they went to school in Britain), but that's just because their defining trait is ambition and you don't turn to dark and forbidden magic if you're not ambitious. It doesn't make Slytherins. And even that's dubious, because Lockhart was pretty ambitious and terrible and he wasn't a Slytherin.

Actually I think Americans in general make much more of the houses than was intended just because their schools don't have them, so they stand out and seem important.

Uh, did the book ever say what house Lockhart was in?

# ? Jun 9, 2017 00:41

Taffy Torpedo: Feb 2, 2008; ...Can we have the radio?

Dabir posted:

Uh, did the book ever say what house Lockhart was in?

I don't think so but on Pottermore it says he was in Ravenclaw. IIRC it also says that prior to Voldemort's rise to power, Ravenclaw was the house that produced the most dark wizards. Not that Yud would ever do that level of research.

# ? Jun 9, 2017 01:10

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

kvx687 posted:

MoR. Snape being able to cast a Patronus is a major plot point in Deathly Hallows, though it isn't revealed until after the fact.

Umbridge had a Patronus too.

# ? Jun 9, 2017 01:36

Mazerunner: Apr 22, 2010; Good Hunter, what... what is this post?

iirc in the books the slytherins did seem seem to have a big boner for their house even outside of the school, but I think that tied into their pureblood/old money philosophies. Like you can trace back your lineage forever and they are all slytherins because that's the signifier of good upbringing to them, and then they cut off the kids who don't fit in, like Sirius Black or Tonk's mom. Cuz if the kid isn't in Slytherin that means they are already not good enough (by their standards) and they are only going to get worse (ie. better, by not being racist/classist shits).

Or whatever I dunno. Like it was a catchall political party and private school, making sure your kids are connected to the next generation of established families, for when they graduate, and are thinking the right things and are going to carry on all the right 'traditions'. And the griffindors kind of developed in opposition to that, with hufflepuffs and ravenclaws just being like, "meh".

So like imagine if the houses were hufflepuff, ravenclaw, labour and tories. (substitute in democrats and republicans if you want). (or don't I don't know politics)

So two factions- snobby rich racists and everybody else.

Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Jun 9, 2017

# ? Jun 9, 2017 03:42

reignonyourparade: Nov 15, 2012

Really it's something that I think, for fanfiction purposes at least, could really go either way depending on what you want to write, can't really begrudge yud for his reading of THIS particular element.

# ? Jun 9, 2017 04:59

Qwertycoatl: Dec 31, 2008

kvx687 posted:

MoR. Snape being able to cast a Patronus is a major plot point in Deathly Hallows, though it isn't revealed until after the fact.

IIRC it wasn't notable that he could, the plot point was the specific form it took.

# ? Jun 9, 2017 08:03

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

I feel like if Slytherin house kids couldn't create a Patronus charm that would have been mentioned in the books when people are learning Patronus charms.

# ? Jun 9, 2017 22:49

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Also, assholes not being able to cast Patronus actually worked better with the old "happy thoughts as protection against depression" Dementors, rather than Death-mentors.

# ? Jun 10, 2017 07:30

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

I looked up what the canon says about the Patronus charm, and it's kinda all over the place (mostly thanks to some augmented reality videogame which Rowling 'collaborated' on and then declared to be canon):

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Patronus_Charm

quote:

The charm also has a long association with those fighting for lofty or noble causes (those able to produce corporeal Patronuses were often elected to high office within the Wizengamot and Ministry of Magic).[4]

According to legend one of the most famous Patronuses of all time was a lowly mouse, which belonged to a young wizard called Illyius.[7] Illyius cast the Patronus Charm when his village was being attacked by the Dark wizard Raczidian and his army of Dementors. Despite the mouses diminutive size, it shone with a brilliant light, bringing the Dementors to a halt as it nimbly moved through the ranks of fleeing villagers.[8] Enraged, Raczidian decided to enter the fray himself, and tried to summon a Patronus to ward off Illyius's mouse.

However, he failed to remember that only the pure of heart can produce a Patronus, and thus for the first time in history, it was revealed what happens when a competent, but unworthy wizard or witch attempts the spell. Maggots shot out of Raczidian's wand and quickly devoured him as they engulfed his entire body. The villagers hailed Illyius as a hero.[8]

quote:

The vast majority of witches and wizards are unable to produce any form of Patronus, and to create even an intangible one is generally considered a mark of superior magical ability.[4] [..]
Also some witches and wizards may be unable to produce a Patronus at all until they have undergone some kind of psychic shock.[4]

quote:

The Patronus Charm is widely regarded as advanced magic, far beyond N.E.W.T.-level; in 1994 Remus Lupin stated that the charm was, in fact "ridiculously advanced".[1]

This charm was, indeed, so perilous, few wizards/witches, could conjour up a true Patronus. It is very complex and many qualified wizards and witches have trouble with it.[4] In fact, Harry Potter is one of the youngest known wizards able to cast a Patronus; he was taught how to do so in early 1994 at the age of thirteen by Remus Lupin.[10] In a Dumbledore's Army lesson, Harry taught the members how to use the charm.

Some were even successful in casting a corporeal form, though Harry said this might be because there was no Dementor to make them frightened.[11] However, three members were later able to cast corporeal Patronuses in the presence of Dementors.[12]

quote:

It is a general belief held by the wizarding world that only those who are pure of heart are able to cast Patronuses; this, however, is untrue, as several characters with negative personality traits are able to cast a fully-fledged Patronus.[4] Although generally Dark witches and wizards will not try to produce a Patronus, not having any need for one, most Dark wizards will be devoured by maggots coming from their wand and consuming the caster.[6] For this reason, Lord Voldemort and his Death Eaters were not able to cast a Patronus Charm (not that it was necessary, as they already had the dark creatures under their control via their affinity to darkness, and would have no use for Patronuses).[13] However, some witches and wizards of questionable morals, such as Dolores Umbridge, are able to produce corporeal Patronuses, Umbridge doing so despite the fact that she was considered an evil person; her wearing of Salazar Slytherin's Locket, which was one of Voldemort's Horcruxes, was what enhanced her strength due to her evil affinity.[4] She was able to produce a corporeal Patronus due to the enhanced strength. Conversely, Draco Malfoy was unable to cast one despite his waning evil. Severus Snape is the only Death Eater capable of casting the charm, as his love for Lily Evans was his one redeeming point.

I want to highlight the last paragraph. "Only the pure of heart can cast Patronuses? Foolish superstition! Well, sure, they generally get devoured by maggots when they try, but that doesn't count. Except it didn't happen to Umbridge, so uh, I guess she wasn't that bad? Ok, right, she's the single most loathsome character in the entire franchise, then, er, she had an evil artifact that gave her power! Power to cast uncorruptibly Good spells! Yeah, that's the ticket."

NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 09:40 on Jun 10, 2017

# ? Jun 10, 2017 09:38

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

Wow, that is a hell of a lot of contradictions.

# ? Jun 10, 2017 16:18

Staltran: Jan 3, 2013; Fallen Rib

quote:

However, some witches and wizards of questionable morals, such as Dolores Umbridge, are able to produce corporeal Patronuses, Umbridge doing so despite the fact that she was considered an evil person; her wearing of Salazar Slytherin's Locket, which was one of Voldemort's Horcruxes, was what enhanced her strength due to her evil affinity.[4]

You might assume that the [4] means that source 4, the Pottermore article on the charm would mention Umbridge being strengthened by the Horcrux. You'd be wrong! (Also look at that sentence. Look at it. Six commas and a semicolon.)

What Pottermore actually says on the matter posted:

The Patronus Charm is one of the most ancient of charms and appears in many accounts of early magic. In spite of a long association with those fighting for lofty or noble causes (those able to produce corporeal Patronuses were often elected to high office within the Wizengamot and Ministry of Magic), the Patronus is not unknown among Dark wizards. While there is a widespread and justified belief that a wizard who is not pure of heart cannot produce a successful Patronus (the most famous example of the spell backfiring is that of the Dark wizard Raczidian, who was devoured by maggots), a rare few witches and wizards of questionable morals have succeeded in producing the Charm (Dolores Umbridge, for example, is able to conjure a cat Patronus to protect herself from Dementors). It may be that a true and confident belief in the rightness of one�s actions can supply the necessary happiness. However, most such men and women, who become desensitised to the effects of the Dark creatures with whom they may ally themselves, regard the Patronus as an unnecessary spell to have in their arsenal.

In fact, there is no mention of the Horcrux at all, and an alternative explanation is suggested! This is because the HP wikia is garbage, and often claims as fact whatever speculation some editor has decided to pull out of their rear end.

# ? Jun 10, 2017 17:42

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 47: Personhood Theory (part 2)

In which Draco tells of the many sins of Albus Dumbledore.

quote:

Harry listened with increasing worry and dismay. Harry had been prepared, he'd thought, to take the blood purist side of the story with a grain of salt. The trouble was that even after you added an enormous amount of salt, it still didn't sound good.

Dumbledore's father had been convicted of using Unforgivable Curses on children, and died in Azkaban. That was no sin of Dumbledore's, but it would be a matter of public record. Harry could check that part, and see whether all of this had been made up out of thin air by the blood purists.

Dumbledore's mother had died mysteriously, shortly before his younger sister died in what the Aurors had ruled to be murder. Supposedly that sister had been brutalized by Muggles and never spoken again after that; which, Draco pointed out, sounded remarkably like a botched Obliviation.

After Harry's first few interruptions, Draco had seemed to pick up on the general principle, and was now presenting the observations first and the inferences afterward.

"- so you don't have to take my word for it," said Draco, "you can see it, right? Anyone in Slytherin can. Dumbledore waited to fight his duel with Grindelwald until the exact moment when it would look best for Dumbledore, after Grindelwald had ruined most of Europe and built up a reputation as the most terrible Dark Wizard in history, and just when Grindelwald had lost the gold and blood sacrifices he was getting from his Muggle pawns and was about to start heading downhill. If Dumbledore was really the noble wizard he pretended to be, he'd have fought Grindelwald long before that. Dumbledore probably wanted Europe ruined, it was probably part of their plan together, he only attacked Grindelwald after his puppet failed him. And that big flashy duel wasn't real, there's no way two wizards would be so exactly matched that they'd fight for twenty whole hours until one of them fell over from exhaustion, that was just Dumbledore making it look more spectacular." Here Draco's voice became more indignant. "And that got Dumbledore made Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot! The Line of Merlin Unbroken, corrupted after fifteen hundred years! And then he became Supreme Mugwump on top of that, and he already had Hogwarts to use as an invincible fortress - Headmaster and Chief Warlock and Supreme Mugwump, no normal person would try to do all that at once, how can anyone not see that Dumbledore's trying to take over the world? "
Pause," Harry said, and closed his eyes to think.

It wasn't any worse than what you would have heard about the West in Stalin's Russia, and none of that would have been true. Though the blood purists wouldn't be able to get away with making stuff up entirely... or would they? The Daily Prophet had shown a pronounced tendency to make stuff up... but then again, when they stuck out their neck too far on the Weasley betrothal, they had been called on it and they had been embarrassed...

No, you are the fake news.

But seriously - here we have an avowedly rationalist author who smugly refers to political "teams" that he's so farabove. Writing his fanfic between 2010 and 2015. You'd think he'd have something to say about political propaganda, how it's made up out of thin air, or merely collects a bunch of unrelated facts into a conspiracy theory. At the very least, he could throw "Gish gallop" in there.

Nope. The end, no moral. Nothing to say or teach.

quote:

"So when you asked me if it was time to join up with Dumbledore, that was just a test."

Draco nodded.

"And before that, when you said it sounded right -"

"It sounds right," said Draco. "But I don't know if I can trust you. Are you going to complain about my testing you, Mr. Potter? Are you going to say that I fooled you? That I led you on? "

Harry knew he should smile like a good sport, but he couldn't really, it was too much of a disappointment.

"You're right, it's fair, I can't complain," Harry said instead. "So what about He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named? Not as bad as he was made out to be?"

Draco looked bitter, at that. "So you think it's all just making Father's side look good and Dumbledore's side look bad, and that I believe it all myself just because Father told me."

"It's a possibility I'm considering," Harry said evenly.

Draco's voice was low and intense. "They knew. My father knew, his friends knew. They knew the Dark Lord was evil. But he was the only chance anyone had against Dumbledore! The only wizard anywhere who was powerful enough to fight him! Some of the other Death Eaters were truly evil too, like Bellatrix Black - Father isn't like that - but Father and his friends had to do it, Harry, they had to, Dumbledore was taking over everything, the Dark Lord was the only hope anyone had left!"

So... what are Dumbledore's goals? Who are his supporters? What do they want, and what do the "sane" Death Eater's want in contrast?

For a cult leader, Yud is just amazingly poo poo at modelling human interaction, from the personal to (particularly) the political.

quote:

Listen, Draco, I've started to notice some worrying things myself. But there's nothing definite, nothing certain, it's all just deductions and hypotheses and untrustworthy witnesses... And there's nothing certain in your story, either. Dumbledore might've had some other good reason not to fight Grindelwald years earlier - though it would have to be a pretty good excuse, especially considering what was happening on the Muggle side of things... but still. Is there one clearly evil thing that Dumbledore's done for certain, so I don't have to wonder?"

Draco's breathing was harsh. "All right," Draco said in an uneven voice, "I'll tell you what Dumbledore did." From Draco's robes came a wand, and Draco said "Quietus", then "Quietus" again, but he got the pronunciation wrong a second time, and finally Harry took out his own wand and did it.

"There," said Draco hoarsely, "once upon a time there, there was a girl, and her name was Narcissa, and she was the prettiest, the smartest, the most cunning girl that was ever Sorted into Slytherin, and my father loved her, and they married, and she wasn't a Death Eater, she wasn't a fighter, all she ever did was love Father -" Draco stopped there, because he was crying.

Harry felt sick to his stomach. Draco had never talked about his mother, not once, he should have noticed that earlier. "She... got in the way of a curse?"

Draco's voice came out in a scream. "Dumbledore burned her to death in her own bedroom! "

...

quote:

That...

...didn't sound like Dumbledore's style...

...but you could only think that thought so many times, before you started to wonder about the trustworthiness of that whole 'style' concept.

"It, it must have hurt horribly," Draco said, his voice shaking, "Father never talks about it at all, you don't ever talk about it in front of him, but Mr. Macnair told me, there were scorch marks all over the bedroom, from how Mother must have struggled while Dumbledore burned her alive. That is the debt Dumbledore owes to House Malfoy and we will have his life for it! "

"Draco," Harry said, he let all of the hoarseness into his own voice, it would be wrong to sound calm, "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry for asking, but I have to know, how do you know it was Dumble-"

"Dumbledore said he did it, he told Father it was a warning! And Father couldn't testify under Veritaserum because he was an Occlumens, he couldn't even get Dumbledore put on trial, Father's own allies didn't believe him after Dumbledore just denied everything in public, but we know, the Death Eaters know, Father wouldn't have any reason to lie about that, Father would want us to take revenge on the right person, can't you see that Harry?" Draco's voice was wild.

Unless Lucius did it himself, of course, and found it more convenient to blame Dumbledore.

Although... it also didn't seem like Lucius's style. And if he had murdered Narcissa, it would have been smarter to pin the blame on an easier victim instead of losing political capital and credibility by going after Dumbledore...

How much of the whole Occlumens / Leggimens / Veritaserum is in HP, and how much created specifically to stop any investigations from starting and ending with "just make him drink some truth juice and tell us everything"?*

I remember the HP justice system being poo poo, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't overtly complicated poo poo like this.

* (Though, let's be fair - even talented writers like Lois McMaster Bujold have to make their protagonists immune to truth-potions for the sake of narrative convenience)

quote:

"I remembered the Dark Lord killing my parents," Harry said. "When I went in front of the Dementor the first time, that was what I remembered, the worst memory. Even though it was so long ago. I heard them dying. My mother begged the Dark Lord not to kill me, not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead! That's what she said. And the Dark Lord mocked her, and laughed. Then, I remember, the flash of green light -"

Harry looked up at Draco.

...

Harry's voice went hoarse. "So if the two of us are going to agree on anything, it's going to be that neither of their deaths were right and that no one's mother should die any more."

The fury boiling inside Draco was so great that he could barely stop himself from storming out of the room; all that halted him was the recognition of a critical moment; and a small remnant of friendship, a tiny flash of sympathy, for he had forgotten, he'd forgotten, that Harry's mother and father were dead by the Dark Lord's hand.

The silence stretched.

"You can talk," Harry said, "Draco, talk to me, I won't get angry - are you thinking, I don't know, that Narcissa dying was much worse than Lily dying? That it's wrong for me even to make the comparison?"

"I guess I was stupid too," Draco said. "All this time, all this time I forgot that you must hate the Death Eaters for killing your parents, hate Death Eaters the way I hate Dumbledore." And Harry had never said anything, never reacted when Draco talked about Death Eaters, kept it hidden - Draco was a fool.

quote:

That's what I want you to say. Not who was right. Not who was wrong. Just that it was sad when your mother died, and sad when my mother died, and it would be sad if Hermione Granger died, every life is precious, can we agree on that and let the rest go by for now, is it enough if we just agree on that? Can we, Draco? That seems... more like a thought someone could use to cast the Patronus Charm."

There were tears in Harry's eyes.

And Draco was getting angry again. "Dumbledore killed Mother, it's not enough to just say it's sad! I don't understand what you think you have to do, but the Malfoys have to take revenge!" Not avenging the deaths of family went beyond weakness, beyond dishonor, you might as well not exist.

"I'm not arguing with that," Harry said quietly. "But will you say that Lily Potter's death was sad? Just say that one thing?"

"That's..." Draco was having difficulty finding words again. "I know, I know how you feel, but don't you see Harry, even if I just say that Lily Potter's death was sad, that's already going against the Death Eaters!"

...

Draco, you've got to be able to say the Death Eaters were wrong about some things! You have to, you can't progress as a scientist otherwise, there'll be a roadblock in your way, an authority you can't contradict. Not every change is an improvement, but every improvement is a change, you can't do anything better unless you can manage to do it differently, you've got to let yourself do better than other people! Even your father, Draco, even him. You've got to be able to point to something your father did and say it was mistaken, because he wasn't perfect, and if you can't say that, you can't do better."

Father had warned him, every night before he went to sleep for a month before he went to Hogwarts, that there would be people with this goal.

"You're trying to break me loose of Father."

"Trying to break a part of you loose," said Harry. "Trying to let you fix some things your father got mistaken. Trying to let you do better. But not... trying to break your Patronus! " Harry's voice got softer. "I wouldn't want to break something bright like that. Who knows, fixing Slytherin House might need that, too..."

It was getting to Draco, that was the thing, despite everything it was getting to him, you had to be really careful around Harry because his arguments sounded so convincing even when he was wrong. "And what you're not admitting is that Dumbledore told you that you could avenge your parents' deaths by taking Lord Malfoy's son from him -"

I'm barely following this conversation, because we get two autistic automatons accusing each other of deep manipulative plans in between bouts of "comedy". And it could have been so good. Like Harriezer matter of the factly notes, no one thinks of themselves as the villain. Trying to explore the Death Eater perspective of Dumbledore as their enemy and the bad guy is perfectly plausible ground for interesting fanfic.

Not here though. :sigh:

quote:

"All right," Draco said. "I've thought of a definitive experiment."

"What is it?"

"I want to give you a drop of Veritaserum," Draco said. "Just one drop, so you can't lie, but not enough to make you answer anything. I don't know where I'll get it, but I'll make certain it's safe -"

"Um," Harry said. There was a helpless look on his face. "Draco, um -"

"Don't say it," Draco said. His voice was firm and calm. "If you say no, that's my experimental result right there."

"Draco, I'm an Occlumens -"

"OH THAT IS SUCH A LIE -

...

"Know a Legilimens you can trust? I'll be happy to demonstrate - look, Draco, I'm sorry, but doesn't the fact that I told you count for something? I could have just let you do it, you know."

"WHY? Why are you always like this, Harry? Why do you have to mess everything up even when it's IMPOSSIBLE? And stop smiling, this isn't funny! "

Why are you such a Mary Sue, Harry? Is that what a perfect rationalist is supposed to be - not just someone who uses his powers of BAYESIAN LOGIC for good, but also someone who gets literal inherent superpowers?

The share a test of trust which... I don't even.

quote:

The whole thing, not the shorter version I tried to explain to you before. But you should be able to see it's the same idea, only more general. So my version of the thought, Draco, is that when we go out into the stars, we might find other people there. And if so, they certainly won't look like we do. There might be things out there that are grown from crystal, or big pulsating blobs... or they might be made of magic, now that I think about it. So with all that strangeness, how do you recognize a person? Not by the shape, not by how many arms or legs it has. Not by the sort of substance it's made out of, whether that's flesh or crystal or stuff I can't imagine. You would have to recognize them as people from their minds. And even their minds wouldn't work just like ours do. But anything that lives and thinks and knows itself and doesn't want to die, it's sad, Draco, it's sad if that person has to die, because it doesn't want to. Compared to what might be out there, every human being who ever lived, we're all like brothers and sisters, you could hardly even tell us apart. The ones out there who met us, they wouldn't see British or French, they wouldn't be able to tell the difference, they'd just see a human being. Humans who can love, and hate, and laugh, and cry; and to them, the ones out there, that would make us all as alike as peas in the same pod. They would be different, though. Really different. But that wouldn't stop us, and it wouldn't stop them, if we both wanted to be friends together."

Harry raised his wand then, and Draco turned, and looked away, as he had promised; looked toward the stone floor and stone wall in which the door was set. For Draco had promised not to look, and not to tell anyone of what Harry had said, or anything at all of what happened here this night, though he didn't know why it was to be so secret.

"I have a dream," said Harry's voice, "that one day sentient beings will be judged by the patterns of their minds, and not their color or their shape or the stuff they're made of, or who their parents were. Because if we can get along with crystal things someday, how silly would it be not to get along with Muggleborns, who are shaped like us, and think like us, as alike to us as peas in a pod? The crystal things wouldn't even be able to tell the difference. How impossible is it to imagine that the hatred poisoning Slytherin House would be worth taking with us to the stars? Every life is precious, everything that thinks and knows itself and doesn't want to die. Lily Potter's life was precious, and Narcissa Malfoy's life was precious, even though it's too late for them now, it was sad when they died. But there are other lives that are still alive to be fought for. Your life, and my life, and Hermione Granger's life, all the lives of Earth, and all the lives beyond, to be defended and protected, EXPECTO PATRONUM! "

Fear of death is the great constant in Yud's universe. The big shiny happy inspiring thought that unites all sentient beings forever.

Really. I suppose that's a logical extension of "I'm an atheist, but really scared of dying so I will pretend science will definitely achieve a singularity in my lifetime. This is totally not the same thing as the Rapture, please don't be silly"...

But seriously, that's just sad.

quote:

"That, that's got to be a trick, right?" Draco said. He couldn't take many more of these shocks. "Your Patronus - can't really be that bright -" And yet it had been Patronus light, once you knew what you were looking at, you couldn't mistake it for anything else.

"That was the true form of the Patronus Charm," Harry said. "Something that lets you put all your strength into the Patronus, without hindrance from within yourself. And before you ask, I did not learn it from Dumbledore. He does not know the secret, and could not cast the true form if he did. I solved the puzzle for myself. And I knew, once I understood, that this spell must not be spoken of. For your sake, I undertook your test; but you must not speak of it, Draco."

quote:

"Draco," Harry said, his voice careful, "all I know is that you say that Lucius says that Dumbledore says he killed Narcissa. To believe that unquestioningly, I have to trust you and Lucius and Dumbledore. So like I said, there are conditions. The first one is that at any point you can release me from the pledge, if it no longer seems like a good idea. It has to be a deliberate and intended decision on your part, of course, not a trick of wording or something."

"Okay," said Draco. That sounded safe enough.

"Condition two is that I'm pledging to take as an enemy whoever actually did kill Narcissa, as determined to the honest best of my ability as a rationalist. Whether that's Dumbledore, or someone else. And you have my word that I'll exercise my best ability as a rationalist to keep that judgment honest, as a question of simple fact. Agreed?"

"I don't like it," said Draco. He didn't, the whole point was to make sure Harry never went with Dumbledore. Still, if Harry was honest, he'd catch on to Dumbledore soon enough; and if dishonest, he'd already broken his word... "But I'll agree."

"Condition three is that Narcissa has to have been burned alive. If that part of the story turns out to be something exaggerated just to make it sound a little worse, then I get to decide for myself whether or not to still go through with the pledge. Good people sometimes have to kill. But they don't ever torture people to death. It's because Narcissa was burned alive that I know whoever did that was evil."

Draco kept his temper, barely.

"Condition four is that if Narcissa got her own hands dirty, and, say, Crucioed someone's child into insanity, and that person burned Narcissa for revenge, the deal might be off again. Because then it was still wrong for them to burn her, they still should've just killed her without pain; but it wasn't evil the same way as if she was just Lucius's love who never did anything herself, like you said. Condition five is that if whoever killed Narcissa was tricked somehow into doing it, then my enemy is whoever tricked them, not the person who was tricked."

"All this really sounds like you're planning to weasel out of it -

Kinda.

I think this is one of the bits that are closer to the original premise of rationalist fanfic. Someone who has read way too much fantasy shlock and invested a lot of time into imagining what he would if he was in the hero's shoes.

I'm sure the vow can be twisted and misused regardless, because that's the whole point of legalese, even fantasy legalese.

quote:

"I'm not happy," said Draco. "But okay. You pledge to take my mother's murderer as your enemy, and I'll -"

Harry waited, with a patient look on his face, while Draco tried to make his voice work again.

"I'll help you fix the problem with Slytherin House hating Muggleborns," Draco finished in a whisper. "And I'll say it was sad that Lily Potter died."

"So be it," said Harry.

And it was done.

And we need a shocker of some sort to end the chapter on, so the boys decide to send messages via Patronus', and we understand why Draco's Patronus was a snake rather than (obviously) a dragon:

quote:

"Hsssss ssss sshsshssss," said Harry.

The snake slithered back across the floor to Draco.

"Harry says the message is received and acknowledged," said the shining Blue Krait in Draco's voice.

"Huh," Harry said. "Talking to Patronuses feels odd."

...

...

...

...

"Why are you looking at me like that?" said the Heir of Slytherin.

Aftermath:

Harry stared at Draco.

"You mean just magical snakes, right?"

"N-no," said Draco. He was looking rather pale, and was still stammering, but had at least stopped the incoherent noises he'd been making earlier. "You're a Parselmouth, you can speak Parseltongue, it's the language of all snakes everywhere. You can understand any snake when it talks, and they can understand when you talk to them... Harry, you can't possibly believe you were Sorted into Ravenclaw! You're the Heir of Slytherin! "

...

...

...

...

...

"SNAKES ARE SENTIENT?"

................... .............................. ......................
We're stuck in a graphic novel now. Funny as hell, it's not the most horrible thing I can think of.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 12:18

divabot: Jun 17, 2015; A polite little mouse!

Xander77 posted:

But seriously - here we have an avowedly rationalist author who smugly refers to political "teams" that he's so farabove. Writing his fanfic between 2010 and 2015. You'd think he'd have something to say about political propaganda, how it's made up out of thin air, or merely collects a bunch of unrelated facts into a conspiracy theory. At the very least, he could throw "Gish gallop" in there.

no no, HPMOR is about [Yudkowsky's ideas, and he didn't come up a neologism for "Gish gallop" so it can't be important.

Also the best Gish gallop article is on RationalWiki, and they're an evil site that increases existential risk.

# ? Jun 12, 2017 14:28

Mazerunner: Apr 22, 2010; Good Hunter, what... what is this post?

Xander77 posted:

Chapter 47: Personhood Theory (part 2)

How much of the whole Occlumens / Leggimens / Veritaserum is in HP, and how much created specifically to stop any investigations from starting and ending with "just make him drink some truth juice and tell us everything"?*

I remember the HP justice system being poo poo, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't overtly complicated poo poo like this.

Hard to say. There were no hard rules given but:

-the big thing is that the government is totally corrupt. Guilty parties (like the Malfoys) could bribe their way out of things like veritaserum that would probably prove their guilt, or prevent innocent parties they want jailed from exonerating themselves. A lot of people either got sham trials or no trials in either direction. Here, Dumbledore not being tried because he's powerful and connected is consistent with the books.

-memory is fallible thanks to magic, which means veritaserum (and pensieve memories) are untrustworthy. Obliviate can remove memories, and there's a spell that can add false ones (what Hermione used on her parents). A guilty person could use those two spells to have no memory of committing a crime, and a memory of their alibi (or to frame someone else for a crime). Although doing stuff like this seems to leave signs if not done perfectly (like in Slughorn's memory of telling Riddle about Horcruxes). I might be wrong but my impression is that veritaserum is used sparingly, and as just another piece of evidence, rather than a be-all end-all.

-legilimens and occlumens seem to be rare, and difficult (only three 'real' users I can think of, all very powerful). Courts may not have a legilimens on hand to interrogate suspects, there's the general memory problem as above, there's the possibility that the suspect is skilled in occlumens and deceives the legilimens, its unverifiable- how do we know the legilimens is telling the truth?

More importantly, similar to veritaserum, it seems to be a can of worms that wizarding community doesn't really want to open- the idea that the government could legally rifle through your mind. Slippery slope on the way to getting imprisoned for thought crime.

I don't think any sort of interaction with veritaserum is mentioned. Although, I'm not sure who the occlumens in the quoted passage is supposed to be. Is it Lucius- veritaserum doesn't work on him because he's an occlumens? Or Dumbledore- Lucius' testimony would be countered because Dumbledore's mind can't be read(???)?

In conclusion, Draco could have stopped at "Dumbledore is powerful and connected, so a trial didn't happen". No need to mention magic at all.

e; according to the wiki- some people are better able to resist veritaserum naturally (and presumably legilimency), so using it is unfair/unreliable as evidence. Also that occlumency can be used as a defence against veritaserum, although it doesn't provide a direct quote. Also reminded me that someone could be 100% certain of their version of the truth/events, even if those are demonstrably false, like Crouch Jr. was, making veritaserum/legilimency/pensieves even less reliable.

Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jun 12, 2017

# ? Jun 12, 2017 21:19

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

also in HP you can break memory charms in a few ways - voldemort tortured a ministry flunky for intel until the charm broke in one of the books. They aren't just a deletion operation.

# ? Jun 13, 2017 01:36

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

It's generally assumed that Occlumency provides resistance to Veritaserum because Snape managed to survive as a spy and Voldemort would have to be pretty dumb to not use it on him to verify his true allegiances, but I'm not sure it's ever stated.

# ? Jun 14, 2017 09:25

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Death Eaters were able to successfully lie about being under the Imperio Curse too, so either there is a defence against Veritaserum or its not used.

# ? Jun 14, 2017 09:33

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

I do like the implications of dark wizards being incapable of casting a patronus though.

Nobody becomes a dark wizard without having a life totally devoid of happiness.

# ? Jun 14, 2017 09:47

Mazerunner: Apr 22, 2010; Good Hunter, what... what is this post?

Doctor Spaceman posted:

Death Eaters were able to successfully lie about being under the Imperio Curse too, so either there is a defence against Veritaserum or its not used.

the defence is having lots of money

# ? Jun 14, 2017 20:43

Stroth: Mar 31, 2007; All Problems Solved

Xander77 posted:

How much of the whole Occlumens / Leggimens / Veritaserum is in HP, and how much created specifically to stop any investigations from starting and ending with "just make him drink some truth juice and tell us everything"?

None of it. Exactly none of it.

Mazerunner posted:

-memory is fallible thanks to magic, which means veritaserum (and pensieve memories) are untrustworthy. Obliviate can remove memories, and there's a spell that can add false ones (what Hermione used on her parents). A guilty person could use those two spells to have no memory of committing a crime, and a memory of their alibi (or to frame someone else for a crime). Although doing stuff like this seems to leave signs if not done perfectly (like in Slughorn's memory of telling Riddle about Horcruxes).

We saw someone, the aforementioned Slughorn, try that. It was absurdly obvious.

# ? Jun 17, 2017 19:04

The Iron Rose: May 12, 2012; Cat Army

While some broadly defined rules about the setting are all well and good, the endless debates over minutiae seem to rather miss the point: it's magic, and it can do almost anything if you're clever enough.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:45

Doctor Spaceman: Jul 6, 2010; "Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

The Iron Rose posted:

While some broadly defined rules about the setting are all well and good, the endless debates over minutiae seem to rather miss the point: it's magic, and it can do almost anything if you're clever enough.

A good concise criticism of HPMoR.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 01:31

Death Bot: Mar 4, 2007; Binary killing machines, turning 1 into 0 since 0011000100111001 0011011100110110

The Iron Rose posted:

While some broadly defined rules about the setting are all well and good, the endless debates over minutiae seem to rather miss the point: it's magic, and it can do almost anything if you're clever enough.

on one hand theres a lot of nerds out there (myself included when this series was coming out tbh) who would have loved a series that was similar but got real nerdy about magic

on the other, the most powerful spell cast in the series is love so i think this aint it

# ? Jun 18, 2017 07:15

MikeJF: Dec 20, 2003

Stroth posted:

We saw someone, the aforementioned Slughorn, try that. It was absurdly obvious.

That was specifically described as being poorly done, though, which implies it can be well done.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 07:41

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

It's generally assumed that Chiaroscuro provides resistance to Mementomorium

# ? Jun 18, 2017 09:20

fritz: Jul 26, 2003

Death Bot posted:

a series that was similar but got real nerdy about magic

There's a bunch of those these days and some are even from actual publishers.

# ? Jun 19, 2017 15:30

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 48: Utilitarian Priorities

We get a lot of capital K komedy as Harriezer feverishly searches for information on whether snakes are actually sapient (you'd think a huge nerd would be proud of knowing the exact difference between sentient and sapient), and what limits their supposed intelligence has (this is actually reasonable):

quote:

..at first. The problem was that Draco had also asserted that Parselmouths could send snakes on extended complex missions. And if that was true, then Parselmouths had to make snakes persistently intelligent by talking to them. In the worst-case scenario that would make the snake self-aware, like what Harry had accidentally done to the Sorting Hat.

And when Harry had offered that hypothesis, Draco had claimed that he could remember a story - Harry hoped to Cthulhu that this one story was just a fairy tale, it had that ring to it, but there was a story - about Salazar Slytherin sending a brave young viper on a mission to gather information from other snakes.

If any snake a Parselmouth had talked to, could make other snakes self-aware by talking to them, then...

Then...

Harry didn't even know why his mind was going all "then... then..." when he knew perfectly well how the exponential progression would work, it was just the sheer moral horror of it that was blowing his mind.

And what if someone had invented a spell like that to talk to cows?

What if there were Poultrymouths?

Or for that matter...

Harry froze in sudden realization just as the forkful of carrots was about to enter his mouth.

That couldn't, couldn't possibly be true, surely no wizard would be stupid enough to do THAT...

And Harry knew, with a dreadful sinking feeling, that of course they would be that stupid. Salazar Slytherin had probably never considered the moral implications of snake intelligence for even one second, just like it hadn't ever occurred to Salazar that Muggleborns were intelligent enough to deserve personhood rights. Most people just didn't see moral issues at all unless someone else was pointing them out...

"Harry?" said Terry from beside him, sounding like he was afraid he would regret asking. "Why are you staring at your fork like that?"

"I'm starting to think magic should be illegal," said Harry. "By the way, have you ever heard any stories about wizards who could speak with plants?"

And we completely abandon that moderately interesting avenue of exploration, before moving on to "haha, Harriezer is now afraid to eat his veggies".

quote:

You've got to eat something, said his inner Slytherin. And it's not all that much more likely that anyone sneezed self-awareness onto poultry than onto plants, so as long as you're eating food of questionable sentience either way, why not eat the delicious deep-fried Diracawl slices?

I'm not quite sure that's valid utilitarian logic, there -

Oh, you want utilitarian logic? One serving of utilitarian logic coming up: Even in the unlikely chance that some moron did manage to confer sentience on chickens, it's your research that stands the best chance of discovering the fact and doing something about it. If you can complete your work even slightly faster by not messing around with your diet, then, counterintuitive as it may seem, the best thing you can do to save the greatest number of possibly-sentient who-knows-whats is not wasting time on wild guesses about what might be intelligent. It's not like the house elves haven't prepared the food already, regardless of what you take onto your plate.

Harry considered this for a moment. It was a rather seductive line of reasoning -

Good! said Slytherin. I'm glad you see now that the most moral thing to do is to sacrifice the lives of sentient beings for your own convenience, to feed your dreadful appetites, for the sick pleasure of ripping them apart with your teeth -

What? Harry thought indignantly. Which side are you on here?

His inner Slytherin's mental voice was grim. You too will someday embrace the doctrine... that the end justifies the meats. This was followed by some mental snickering.

...

Harry gave a mental sigh, and thought, Just so long as you're okay with us being eaten by giant monsters that didn't do enough research into whether we were sentient.

I'm okay with that, said Slytherin. Is everyone else okay with that? (Internal mental nods.) Great, can we go back to deep-fried Diracawl slices now?

Not until I've done some more research into what's sentient and what isn't. Now shut up. And Harry turned firmly away from his plate full of oh-so-tempting vegetables to head toward the library -

Just eat the students, said Hufflepuff. There's no doubt about whether they're sentient.

You know you want to, said Gryffindor. I bet the young ones are the tastiest.

Harry was starting to wonder if the Dementor had somehow damaged their imaginary personalities.

Harry is distracted from these considerations by Hermione:

quote:

"What could possibly be more important than plants turning out to be sentient?"

There was a pregnant silence from beside him, as Harry's eyes went down the table of contents. There was indeed a chapter on Plant Language, causing Harry's heart to skip a beat; and then his hands began to rapidly turn the pages, heading for the appropriate page number.

"There are days," said Hermione Granger, "when I really, truly, have absolutely no idea what goes on inside that head of yours."

"Look, it's a question of multiplication, okay? There's a lot of plants in the world, if they're not sentient then they're not important, but if plants are people then they've got more moral weight than all the human beings in the world put together. Now, of course your brain doesn't realize that on an intuitive level, but that's because the brain can't multiply. Like if you ask three separate groups of Canadian households how much they'll pay to save two thousand, twenty thousand, or two hundred thousand birds from dying in oil ponds, the three groups will respectively state that they're willing to pay seventy-eight, eighty-eight, and eighty dollars. No difference, in other words. It's called scope insensitivity. Your brain imagines a single bird struggling in an oil pond, and that image creates some amount of emotion that determines your willingness to pay. But no one can visualize even two thousand of anything, so the quantity just gets thrown straight out the window. Now try to correct that bias with respect to a hundred trillion sentient blades of grass, and you'll realize that this could be thousands of times more important than we used to think the whole human species was... oh thank Azathoth, this says it's just mandrakes that can talk and they speak regular human language out loud, not that there's a spell you can use to talk with any plant -"

"Ron came to me at breakfast yesterday morning," Hermione said. Now her voice sounded a little quiet, a little sad, maybe even a little scared. "He said he'd been dreadfully shocked to see me kiss you. That what you said while you were Demented should've shown me how much evil you were hiding inside. And that if I was going to be a follower of a Dark Wizard, then he wasn't sure he wanted to be in my army anymore."

Harry's hands had stopped turning pages. It seemed that Harry's brain, for all its abstract knowledge, was still incapable of appreciating scope on any real emotional level, because it had just forcibly redirected his attention away from trillions of possibly-sentient blades of grass who might be suffering or dying even as they spoke, and toward the life of a single human being who happened to be nearer and dearer.

"Ron is the world's most gigantic prat," Harry said. "They won't be printing that in the newspaper anytime soon, because it's not news. So after you fired him, how many of his arms and legs did you break?"

Poor Ron, I'd say, if I didn't share the author's unreasonable hatred. Like, regardless of indulging in "fukken jocks (wahey)", Ron is a "gigantic prat" at best.

...

quote:

"It's not just Ron," Hermione said in almost a whisper. "Lots of people are saying it, Harry. Even Mandy is giving me worried looks when she thinks I'm not looking. Isn't it funny? I keep worrying that Professor Quirrell is sucking you into the darkness, and now people are warning me just the same way I try to warn you."

"Well, yeah," said Harry. "Doesn't that reassure you a bit about me and Professor Quirrell?"

"In a word," said Hermione, "no."

There was a silence that lasted long enough for Hermione to turn another page, and then her voice, in a real whisper this time, "And, and Padma is going around telling everyone that, that since I couldn't cast the P-Patronus Charm, I must only be p-pretending to be n-nice..."

"Padma didn't even try herself!" Harry said indignantly. "If you were a Dark Witch who was just pretending, you wouldn't have tried in front of everyone, do they think you're stupid? "

quote:

"I don't know how to explain to you," Hermione said in a sad soft voice. "I'm not sure it's something you could ever understand, Harry. All I can think of to say is, how would you feel if I thought you were evil?"

"Um..." Harry visualized it. "Yeah, that would hurt. A lot. But you're a good person who thinks about that sort of thing intelligently, you've earned that power over me, it would mean something if you thought I'd gone wrong. I can't think of a single other student, besides you, whose opinion I'd care about the same way -"

"You can live like that," whispered Hermione Granger. "I can't."

He could probably show her the ~~Bayesian~~ ~~Rationalist~~ Humanistic Patronus, but wait, he actually can't:

quote:

"I, I shouldn't, I really shouldn't, it's dangerous, Hermione, it could do a lot of harm if that secret got out! Haven't you heard the saying, three can keep a secret if two are dead? That telling just your closest friends is the same as telling everyone, because you're not just trusting them, you're trusting everyone they trust? It's too important, too much of a risk, it's not the sort of decision that should be made for the sake of fixing someone's reputation at school!"

"Okay," Hermione said. She closed the book and put it back on the shelf. "I can't concentrate right now, Harry, I'm sorry."

"If there's anything else I can do -"

"Be nicer to everyone."

# ? Jun 21, 2017 14:19

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Xander77 posted:

Chapter 48: Utilitarian Priorities

We get a lot of capital K komedy as Harriezer feverishly searches for information on whether snakes are actually sapient (you'd think a huge nerd would be proud of knowing the exact difference between sentient and sapient), and what limits their supposed intelligence has (this is actually reasonable):

He's overlooking a pretty obvious point here. If snakes were as intelligent as they seem to parselmouths, muggles would almost certainly know about it. That's an inconsistency that suggests he's missing some key information. When a parselmouth talks to a snake, the snake seems about as intelligent as a human. When anyone else interacts with a snake, the snake demonstrates no such cognitive ability. So either snakes are hiding their intelligence from the vast majority of humans for some reason, or they're not actually that smart and there's some other explanation for why they seem to be to certain individuals. That should be your first avenue of investigation.

# ? Jun 21, 2017 14:31

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 17, 2024 01:59

Added Space: Jul 13, 2012; Free Markets
Free People

Curse you Hayard-Gunnes!

Tiggum posted:

He's overlooking a pretty obvious point here. If snakes were as intelligent as they seem to parselmouths, muggles would almost certainly know about it. That's an inconsistency that suggests he's missing some key information. When a parselmouth talks to a snake, the snake seems about as intelligent as a human. When anyone else interacts with a snake, the snake demonstrates no such cognitive ability. So either snakes are hiding their intelligence from the vast majority of humans for some reason, or they're not actually that smart and there's some other explanation for why they seem to be to certain individuals. That should be your first avenue of investigation.

Hey, Harriezer has a wrong idea and is trying to investigate what wizards know. This is a rare moment of sanity.

# ? Jun 21, 2017 15:11

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

«‹›100 »