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Never has the phrase "Modding is the game" been more appropriate.
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Jun 14, 2017 10:52
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Tasteful Dickpic posted:Never has the phrase "Modding is the game" been more appropriate. Haha modding Oblivion was definitely the game more than Oblivion itself for me and my buddy back in the day. Finding just the right ones and figuring out how to make them work together. I've also installed FCOM circa 2014 with some additional small mods on top 
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Jun 14, 2017 17:06
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Unreal_One posted:These are not completely different notes. FFT 1.3 is designed by someone who expects, at the least, a complete knowledge of base game mechanics, and includes an unwinnable, randomly occurring boss battle (The boss can, every turn, permanently kill one of the characters in your party, amongst other things) that the creator patches every time someone figures out a way to kill. As a followup to this guy: While the actual Final Fantasy thread can give you a much more comprehensive list as to why this mod is absolutely insane to play for any reasonable person, allow me to give you one of the more outrageous aspects of this mod: Not only does it expect you to grind like there's no tomorrow, it also expects you to know the correct way to grind, or else your grinding will leave you worse off than just going in without having ground at all.
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Jun 14, 2017 17:44
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What is it about Final Fantasy modding specifically that seems to attract lunatics with a fundamentally broken notion of what constitutes fun?
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Jun 14, 2017 17:50
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Sordas Volantyr posted:As a followup to this guy: While the actual Final Fantasy thread can give you a much more comprehensive list as to why this mod is absolutely insane to play for any reasonable person, allow me to give you one of the more outrageous aspects of this mod: He also supposedly would have temper tantrums about cheating when people beat his supposedly unbeatable optional superboss, iirc.
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Jun 14, 2017 17:58
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Angry Diplomat posted:What is it about Final Fantasy modding specifically that seems to attract lunatics with a fundamentally broken notion of what constitutes fun? Final Fantasy is an old series that has its roots in some of the most broken and abused statistical systems in gaming. That prediliction shows both in its hardcore fanbase, and periodically reveals itself in its games. Remember Pandemonium Warden. edit: ^^^^^lol, bingo
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Jun 14, 2017 17:59
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See I get that, but I have trouble understanding how "I enjoy these broken, abusable games and their mechanics, including the grindy aspects" translates to "gameplay that's literally designed to waste time and frustrate the player is good, actually, and I'm going to make the most unrewarding game ever with a random chance to suddenly display gently caress YOU and quit to menu, because that's what fun is."
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Jun 14, 2017 18:05
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Most normal people realize that the hallmark of late 80's-early 90's RPGs--that you trigger one of three combat encounters every time you move 3 squares on the map--is not that fun. Then there are brokebrains who react to anything less HARDCORE than this with disdain. The same thing happens in MMOs. People react with outrage if devs make any aspect of the game easier or less grindy, and if given a say will encourage the dev to instead make things more grindy.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:23
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dont even fink about it posted:Most normal people realize that the hallmark of late 80's-early 90's RPGs--that you trigger one of three combat encounters every time you move 3 squares on the map--is not that fun. Then there are brokebrains who react to anything less HARDCORE than this with disdain. Or ones like the people who clamoured for WOW to make its raids harder, when they hadn't done any of the raids themselves.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:31
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the pretense of being a hardcore gamer is the sole status symbol they have, despite the fact that no sane person would ever want that label.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:33
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Angry Diplomat posted:See I get that, but I have trouble understanding how "I enjoy these broken, abusable games and their mechanics, including the grindy aspects" translates to "gameplay that's literally designed to waste time and frustrate the player is good, actually, and I'm going to make the most unrewarding game ever with a random chance to suddenly display gently caress YOU and quit to menu, because that's what fun is." Have you ever glanced at the Payday 2 Thread, specifically, Death Vox? (not yet a mod)
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Jun 14, 2017 18:55
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That doesn't even just happen to MMOs. Subnautica has its own cadre of git-gudders that are doing their absolute best to steer the devs off course into making the game more "hardcore" by making it as tedious as possible, since everyone knows more mouse clicks needed to get anything done means it's more hardcore and the gameplay is better. Basically anything in the game that makes you any better than a shivering, helpless diverman is an affront to them. Thread relevant: I seriously hope subnautica ends up with limited moddability so some of the dumb tedious poo poo they've been doing can be removed, such as the 4 different ways they have made the big submarine more of a pointless hassle to use.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:58
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Angry Diplomat posted:See I get that, but I have trouble understanding how "I enjoy these broken, abusable games and their mechanics, including the grindy aspects" translates to "gameplay that's literally designed to waste time and frustrate the player is good, actually, and I'm going to make the most unrewarding game ever with a random chance to suddenly display gently caress YOU and quit to menu, because that's what fun is." Look at the people who think what Oblivion needed was unlevelled regions, or that what an RTS needs is about a billion more resources. Mod stuff is largely amateur gamedev, and part of being amateur is maybe understanding that sometimes a thing is good but not understanding why that was good in that context or how to make that thing work within the game. Seriously though, I cannot think of one RTS overhaul that wasn't just "here's a billion more bits of fiddly bullshit you have to understand to accomplish what you could in vanilla." TGLT fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 19:00
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Angry Diplomat posted:See I get that, but I have trouble understanding how "I enjoy these broken, abusable games and their mechanics, including the grindy aspects" translates to "gameplay that's literally designed to waste time and frustrate the player is good, actually, and I'm going to make the most unrewarding game ever with a random chance to suddenly display gently caress YOU and quit to menu, because that's what fun is." The thing is, when someone who considers themselves a hardcore gamer wants to make a hard mod for a turn based RPG, they quickly run into the wall of "well you can just grind until you're a high enough level to make the fights trivial." Then this quickly leads to a situation where if there's multiple ways to optimize your characters at max level, then "you can have an optimal strategy that makes fights trivial." Since they want the game to be hard to them, they think the only correct way to do this in a mod is to make the fights hard with an optimal setup at max level. This leads to a giant gently caress you to anyone who isn't using an optimal setup that grinded until everything was maxed out. I've seen this in Pokemon hacks as well, where normally the games end with things at level 50-70 but there are hacks that actually expect you to grind all your pokemon to level 100, which takes forever, and then throws like lvl 150 opponents at you so that your perfectly optimized sets with minmaxed lvl 100 pokemon will still struggle with the battles.
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Jun 14, 2017 19:12
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Kikas posted:Have you ever glanced at the Payday 2 Thread, specifically, Death Vox? (not yet a mod) Hey now, that game design fanfiction is a work of art. ...And even at its worst, still better than the design going into the actual game. Robbedacop anyone? Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 19:17
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Digirat posted:That doesn't even just happen to MMOs. Subnautica has its own cadre of git-gudders that are doing their absolute best to steer the devs off course into making the game more "hardcore" by making it as tedious as possible, since everyone knows more mouse clicks needed to get anything done means it's more hardcore and the gameplay is better. Basically anything in the game that makes you any better than a shivering, helpless diverman is an affront to them. Subnautica will almost certainly be moddable, it's by Unknown Worlds, the team that made Natural Selection 2. They bent over backwards in that game to make sure that modding was not only possible but easy to do, and provided documentation and source for everything. Makes sense, NS1 was a mod, so that's their roots. It'd be weird for Subnautica to do a 180 and have no mod support.
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Jun 14, 2017 19:19
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GunnerJ posted:He also supposedly would have temper tantrums about cheating when people beat his supposedly unbeatable optional superboss, iirc. This is a particular modder/romhacker quirk I've never understood: they'll make some boss "unbeatable", someone else will post a video of them using an utterly insane strategy to beat it, and they'll promptly update the mod to make the boss immune to that strategy in response. Why? If they were all "of COURSE it's beatable, you just have to git gud scrub  " I'd understand (if also roll my eyes as hard as humanly possible), but no. They expect their pet boss to be literally unbeatable and apparently take players actually finding ways to defeat them as a personal affront.
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Jun 14, 2017 19:22
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Angry Diplomat posted:What is it about Final Fantasy modding specifically that seems to attract lunatics with a fundamentally broken notion of what constitutes fun? Yeah, normally that kinda stuff is reserved for Minecraft and games of that nature!
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Jun 14, 2017 19:29
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Kerning Chameleon posted:This is a particular modder/romhacker quirk I've never understood: they'll make some boss "unbeatable", someone else will post a video of them using an utterly insane strategy to beat it, and they'll promptly update the mod to make the boss immune to that strategy in response. I think it's that, in making an unkillable boss, they show everyone they understand the system well enough that they can make something that can't be defeated by the rules of the system. If you then beat it, you are proving you know a way to win that they don't, and by implication you understand the rules better than they do. This kills the ego.
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Jun 14, 2017 19:33
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Let me know when someone mods the cavalcade of gently caress-you monsters out of Subnautica. I was interested at one point, but the clamouring tryhards in the Steam forums turned me right off.
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Jun 14, 2017 20:31
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dont even fink about it posted:Most normal people realize that the hallmark of late 80's-early 90's RPGs--that you trigger one of three combat encounters every time you move 3 squares on the map--is not that fun. Then there are brokebrains who react to anything less HARDCORE than this with disdain. One of the reason why people prefers the remakes of older JRPGs like Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest is because they fix a lot of bugs that plagued the originals, and tweaked the stats so you don't have spend eight hours grinding for levels. marshmallow creep posted:I think it's that, in making an unkillable boss, they show everyone they understand the system well enough that they can make something that can't be defeated by the rules of the system. If you then beat it, you are proving you know a way to win that they don't, and by implication you understand the rules better than they do. This kills the ego. In a way, though, I do like that general approach. Once you get a in-depth knowledge of the inner workings of a game, and figure out how to take advantage of various exploits, you can trivialize most of the challenge. I imagine most mod authors are people who know the game they modding for inside-out, so they craft their design based on the idea that people are using those same exploits. It might appeal to other fans with that same indepth knowledge, but newcomers find it inapproachable. I'm not someone who like extremely difficult games, but I think there's an appeal when a game stacks the deck against you. If you make a game too easy, or strive to make something perfectly balanced, then it can feel very rote. When you're put at a disadvantage, you start thinking outside the box for ways to overcome whatever challenge you're presented with. I'm not trying to defend any of the examples that have been posted, I just think that it could really work if it was executed better.
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Jun 14, 2017 20:32
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there is a lot of room between a mod to make an easy game harder and a mod to make an easy game impossible for everyone who isn't too autistic to function in society.
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Jun 14, 2017 20:37
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I always just assumed "unbeatable bosses" were intended as community challenges. The player is tasked with figuring out a strategy for a fight that the modder themselves considers to be impossible. The one who succeeds get some fleeting moments of fame in whatever community the mod originated in, and the fight is subsequently updated to require a new approach. It's not something that would appeal to a broader player base, but then difficulty mods are almost always rather insular affairs. I was actually really surprised by how popular 1.3 got a few years ago, considering it caters to an incredibly small segment of FFT fans.
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Jun 14, 2017 20:37
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Kerning Chameleon posted:This is a particular modder/romhacker quirk I've never understood: they'll make some boss "unbeatable", someone else will post a video of them using an utterly insane strategy to beat it, and they'll promptly update the mod to make the boss immune to that strategy in response. See I could accept this if they responded by adding some new optional megaboss that isn't vulnerable in that way as a kind of ongoing challenge for people who like that stuff. It's the "getting for-real mad about it" part, being really personally invested in making something people can't beat, that I don't get. I'd like to think I'd be impressed if someone found a way to and use that as the basis for something new.
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Jun 14, 2017 20:38
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Samuel Clemens posted:I always just assumed "unbeatable bosses" were intended as community challenges. The player is tasked with figuring out a strategy for a fight that the modder themselves considers to be impossible. The one who succeeds get some fleeting moments of fame in whatever community the mod originated in, and the fight is subsequently updated to require a new approach. Let me take you to a dark world where peoples' egos and sense of self-worth are tied to vidya games
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Jun 14, 2017 20:39
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Bieeardo posted:Let me know when someone mods the cavalcade of gently caress-you monsters out of Subnautica. I was interested at one point, but the clamouring tryhards in the Steam forums turned me right off. There is a mode you can select when you start a game which makes you invincible
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Jun 14, 2017 20:45
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Digirat posted:There is a mode you can select when you start a game which makes you invincible That doesn't sound very fun. It reminds me of when I unlocked the damage immunity upgrades in Saints Row 3. I quickly regretted it because it takes any sense of challenge out of everything. I use that save file for entertaining my six year old when he wants to play a silly game. Wasn't there an upgrade in that game that reduced your physics from an explosion? I may be remembering wrong, but I think an upgrade like that makes things less fun. Upgrades like that should be "You can tweak this element 25/50/75/100%" in either direction. Turn your ragdoll madness to 11 as part of the game itself! Or turn it off if it bores or frustrates you.
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Jun 14, 2017 21:08
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marshmallow creep posted:That doesn't sound very fun. It reminds me of when I unlocked the damage immunity upgrades in Saints Row 3. I quickly regretted it because it takes any sense of challenge out of everything. I use that save file for entertaining my six year old when he wants to play a silly game. Total non sequitur but is it, uh, a good idea to let a 6 year old play a saints row game? Not even the violence that makes me err but the crassness of all the game's content.
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Jun 14, 2017 21:23
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Children playing Saints Row is probably less damaging than binge Youtube. Same about of dildos, though.
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Jun 14, 2017 21:28
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New Concept Hole posted:Children playing Saints Row is probably less damaging than binge Youtube. Same about of dildos, though. Good point.
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Jun 14, 2017 21:31
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I like mods that introduce complexity and difficulty into the game so long as it's done well. STALKER is a pretty good example of where this can be done right and wrong. AMK increases a lot of randomization and variation to the world to make the player slow down and pay more attention to their situation. Misery makes it so that the player gets sniped from NPCs outside of visible range while they're sorting through menus to sharpen a shovel.TGLT posted:Look at the people who think what Oblivion needed was unlevelled regions, or that what an RTS needs is about a billion more resources. Mod stuff is largely amateur gamedev, and part of being amateur is maybe understanding that sometimes a thing is good but not understanding why that was good in that context or how to make that thing work within the game. Uh there are loads of RTS mods and overhauls that just add tons of new units or factions or shake up the gameplay without necessarily introducing new mechanics. I have no idea how many hours I put into Homeworld and Total Annihilation mods. turn off the TV fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 21:36
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Martha Stewart Undying posted:Total non sequitur but is it, uh, a good idea to let a 6 year old play a saints row game? Not even the violence that makes me err but the crassness of all the game's content. All he does is run around in cars and crash into things. He doesn't do missions (they are all finished already anyway) or buy things and I don't have items like the dildo in his loadout. But when he wants to play gta because I do, I set him on that so he gets the driving with basically none of the frustration or difficulty.
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Jun 14, 2017 21:44
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:the pretense of being a hardcore gamer is the sole status symbol they have, despite the fact that no sane person would ever want that label. Part of it is also feeling like making a game easier in any way cheapens the experience of beating it. So to make the achievement of "I beat this game" a bigger deal it's better to make it harder. That way only a chosen few can claim they've mastered the game. These are also the people that piss and moan about a ton of optional content or a relatively short "main" quest. There are also people that feel the need to beat the player by making something that can't be beaten; hence those that piss and moan if somebody beats the insanely overpowered super ultra mega boss they put in. The person creating that mod wasn't interested in creating a fun experience for others; they only wanted to win. It's all about winning. Nothing else. Just "I must win." What confuses me the most are those that are all "you're playing this game wrong!" Like who cares? I'm a fan of difficult games myself but I'm not going to judge somebody who wants easier games because it doesn't cheapen the experience. Something like a difficult modifier is great for that; I want to crank that fucker up as high as it goes but it doesn't make my experience less fun if somebody else can turn it down.
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Jun 14, 2017 23:20
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marshmallow creep posted:That doesn't sound very fun. It reminds me of when I unlocked the damage immunity upgrades in Saints Row 3. I quickly regretted it because it takes any sense of challenge out of everything. I use that save file for entertaining my six year old when he wants to play a silly game. woo boy I remember when I got the bullet immunity upgrade thinking that lasers still did damage. 
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Jun 14, 2017 23:25
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Digirat posted:That doesn't even just happen to MMOs. Subnautica has its own cadre of git-gudders that are doing their absolute best to steer the devs off course into making the game more "hardcore" by making it as tedious as possible, since everyone knows more mouse clicks needed to get anything done means it's more hardcore and the gameplay is better. Basically anything in the game that makes you any better than a shivering, helpless diverman is an affront to them. Bieeardo posted:Let me know when someone mods the cavalcade of gently caress-you monsters out of Subnautica. I was interested at one point, but the clamouring tryhards in the Steam forums turned me right off. I too, would enjoy the ability to mod out their upcoming implementation of  style Ghost Heat. "We made your submarines max speed faster!... It will now catch on fire if you travel at max speed based on a brand new heat mechanic with an invisible meter"Digirat thought I was making up joke parody patch notes, until he clicked the link I provided to upcoming updates  gimme the GOD drat candy posted:there is a lot of room between a mod to make an easy game harder and a mod to make an easy game impossible for everyone who isn't too autistic to function in society.  ToxicSlurpee posted:What confuses me the most are those that are all "you're playing this game wrong!" Like who cares? I'm a fan of difficult games myself but I'm not going to judge somebody who wants easier games because it doesn't cheapen the experience. Something like a difficult modifier is great for that; I want to crank that fucker up as high as it goes but it doesn't make my experience less fun if somebody else can turn it down. Mildly related. Brigador tries to fill that whole "Tough But Fair" niche in stompy robots and literal Killdozers  They will point out That One Mission in the campaign list is basically meant to be a combo puzzle mission+training vs that enemy type, But the Devs still left in the Dev console so you can go gently caress it, push the god mode/invisibility/etc buttons. Or try to pick through the guts of the visible portions of code GUI to either give yourself ludicrous weapons, or give the ENEMY ludicrous weapons and ramp up their spawn count even higher because you are indeed that good at videogames.Standard gameplay wise, Freelance mode has a shitload of pilots who are, in fact, your difficulty modifiers. Combined with the fact it's usually easier to stomp through a dystopian cityscape in a big bad mech with huge weaponry, than if you use the luggage cart (But it gets an x10 pay mod if you live!) Section Z fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Jun 15, 2017 |
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Jun 15, 2017 00:27
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I casually blew through like the entire Subnautica storyline (to that point) in a weekend about a month ago and I didn't even get the plans to build the big submarine completed.
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Jun 15, 2017 01:19
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GunnerJ posted:He also supposedly would have temper tantrums about cheating when people beat his supposedly unbeatable optional superboss, iirc. And to think that when I noticed there was a separate download for a version which didn't affect the difficulty as much, I thought it was a sign that the creator just wanted people to be able to have more fun with a game he and I both liked.  There are a few characters in FFT that are either broken-good or broken-bad; making them balanced against each other could make more choices viable and fun. Or getting rid of bravery-fuckery grinding while doing something else to make it unecessary, that'd be cool.
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Jun 15, 2017 02:34
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It's really easy for modders to lose perspective on complexity and difficulty, especially if the game has a lot of invisible stuff going on, stats-wise. Payday 2 is somewhat infamous for this, in that there's basically two playerbases: people who've read the infamous "Long Guide" (~82 thousand words), and people who haven't.
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Jun 15, 2017 |
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Jun 15, 2017 03:13
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Doc Hawkins posted:And to think that when I noticed there was a separate download for a version which didn't affect the difficulty as much, I thought it was a sign that the creator just wanted people to be able to have more fun with a game he and I both liked. That came about as a result of a 1.3 LP. Guy actually came into the thread to argue(I want to say that he even straight up bought an account just to do that), and the goons, after many careful and semi-polite explanations, managed to do what many others had tried and failed to do over the years, which was to convince the guy that people wanted to play around with his additions and modifications without having to get smashed in the face with a hammer repeatedly. Like, he was apparently* famous for flipping out and ranting whenever someone dared to suggest that maybe he could release a version where you didn't have to perfectly memorize AI patterns just to get past the tutorial fight, and maybe not have every enemy in the game tuned to be 5-10 levels higher than your highest level character, with perfect builds and at least one tier of gear higher than what you'd have access to. And then he'd ban them from his forum. *It's been years on top of a lot of this being secondhand, accuracy may be off.
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Jun 15, 2017 03:42
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Discendo Vox posted:"Long Guide" (~82 thousand words) what directly the gently caress
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