|
JcDent posted:I just want a confirmation that Lilith isn't a thing in Catholicism and mainstream Judaism, and Adam and Eve were not cast out of Eden into an Earth that was already populated by people, and that angels both righteous and fallen did not descend to mate with Lilith's children. I always thought that the earth had to have been populated with people while Adam and Eve were in the garden because Cain is exiled to wander the cities of the world after he kills Abel and I don't think Eve's vageen could handle outputting even one whole city's worth of people.
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 16:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 13:58 |
|
|
cis autodrag posted:I always thought that the earth had to have been populated with people while Adam and Eve were in the garden because Cain is exiled to wander the cities of the world after he kills Abel and I don't think Eve's vageen could handle outputting even one whole city's worth of people. Old testament people have a life span of like eight hundred years, who knows how many babies they could have in that time. Wrt Lilith, it's definitely not in the Catholic version of the old testament. But then again neither is the devil being a rebellious fallen angel thing, and plenty of Catholics do believe that. Personally I still wouldn't have heard of Lilith if I hadn't read about her in a manga when I was maybe 13 years old. So at least it's probably not a common belief, though Catholics don't take the Eden story literally to begin with. Today's Corpus Christi, my favorite church day of the whole year. I went to my parish's service this time and got to shake the callused hand of an old Bavarian in full shooting club regalia. I think that's the first time I've ever touched such a person. During mass, at the point of transubstantiation when they ring the bells, they shot some guns outside which was very loud and scary. I didn't stay around for the whole procession because it's too hot out. Edit: I found a picture to illustrate the shooting club. You can tell from the details that these are from a different area, and the older guys I saw were wearing normal trousers, but this is basically what I'm talking about : 
pidan fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Jun 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 16:22
|
|
|
Angels having offspring with human beings sounds like the (apocryphal, definitely not mainstream) Book of Enoch. Lilith I'm not really sure about.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 16:25
|
|
|
From what I understand, Lilith comes primarily from Judaism, and is discussed in the Talmud and Kaballah, but the name does appear in Isaiah, and has roots all the way back in Sumerian mythology. The Septuagint apparently translates that occurrence of "Lilith" with Onocentaur, the Vulgate translated it as "Lamia," and the KJV gives it as "screech owl."
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 17:16
|
|
|
pidan posted:
The US moves most feasts to Sundays, so that's when our parish is having the traditional Eucharistic procession during vespers followed by a party in the gym where you get super drunk
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 17:40
|
|
|
There's an ICK oratory 40 minutes from me and their Prior General is in town and is going to offer Mass, so I'm going to that because there will be so much bling and incense.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 18:55
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:Angels having offspring with human beings sounds like the (apocryphal, definitely not mainstream) Book of Enoch. Lilith I'm not really sure about. Early in Genesis, 'Moses' talks about sons of God mating with human women, creating the legendary heroes of old (older than Moses, at least). Pretty weird thing for Moses to name-drop and then walk away from, never explaining again. Several things in the Bible are called or will be called the children of God (peacemakers, for example). But the Nicene Creed establishes the trinitarian belief that only Jesus is the son of God that is also fully begotten by and consubstantial with the Father. I'm also not sure about what happened between Noah and his son Ham. Noah gets drunk and passes out naked in his tent. His son Ham walks in on him, and then Noah curses Ham's son. I don't quite get Noah's motivation; it must be very pre-Modern, because it just sounds to me like Noah was embarrassed and shameless about having his son see his junk, and then he dumps all the shame on Ham. And then there's Lot, who claimed his daughters got him drunk and raped him. That's exactly the kind of defense I expect someone who raped his daughters to make. Sorry Moses, I've just become to worldly for your sacred stories.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 20:51
|
|
|
pidan posted:Old testament people have a life span of like eight hundred years, who knows how many babies they could have in that time. I attended the Corpus Christi procession here in my hometown for the first time in ages, and it was awesome and I loved it. Because it also coincided with a city festival everybody went into the beer tent afterwards for some beer & Weißwürste, and I had the good luck of snatching a seat along with our chaplain and the mayor and getting drunk with them while discussing canon law and St Athanasius. What a perfect start to the day   Some of the flags carried by the various associations and groups through town today (not bothering with removing hints on where I live from the flags here, so please don't doxx me)  Bread, banners and baroque, Oh my! Our monstrance is from ~1730 and weighs a *lot*, it's way larger than it looks like here  Also have this wonderful Corpus Christi parody from a 14th century manuscript I found yesterday  Bel_Canto posted:There's an ICK oratory 40 minutes from me and their Prior General is in town and is going to offer Mass, so I'm going to that because there will be so much bling and incense. I live about 90 minutes away from the European FSSP seminary in Wigratzbad, and I plan on attending their ordination Mass in about two weeks, celebrated by none other than good ol' Cardinal Burke. I bet that the liturgy will be splendid and the homily probably pretty bad.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 21:17
|
|
|
Keromaru5 posted:From what I understand, Lilith comes primarily from Judaism, and is discussed in the Talmud and Kaballah, but the name does appear in Isaiah, and has roots all the way back in Sumerian mythology. The Septuagint apparently translates that occurrence of "Lilith" with Onocentaur, the Vulgate translated it as "Lamia," and the KJV gives it as "screech owl." Yeah, she seems to have been some sort of ancient Near Eastern bogeywoman who was blamed for causing miscarriages and crib death. The mentions in the Talmud are all in line with that portrayal - it's less a matter of a figure related to the book of Genesis than it is the Rabbis making use of a figure that belonged to popular superstitions that reached beyond a Jewish context. The connection between Lilith and the story of Paradise are later, belonging to the Midrashic tradition; like just about everything else exclusive to that line, they shouldn't be considered part of the 'canonical' Jewish narrative. As for the Sons of God and the human women, that story is most fleshed out in Enoch, but that text is an extended gloss on Genesis 6. There's little enough in the Biblical text to make that story understandable, but the Enoch version at least draws upon older Near Eastern traditions. In a very broad sense, it is kind of parallel to Prometheus in that a bunch of heavenly renegades give humans technology and trouble ensues. Numerical Anxiety fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jun 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 21:44
|
|
|
Little interdenominational question: How 'popular' are angels in the every day cultus of your denomination? How are they pictured and what role do they have for the faithful? German situation on the ground: Lots of people who are nominally christian - or even neutral to religion have overly cute guardian angel images or figures hanging around. Example:  I miss the more ... non-euclidian depction of angels from the OT:    But I really see the problem with those guys showing up near the opened tomb and telling people not to be afraid. SavageGentleman fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jun 15, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 21:50
|
|
|
angels are extremely important. everyone is supposed to have a guardian angel, there are representatives of Michael and Gabriel in front of the altars as door guardians, there are several angel-specific feast days, and michael is freaking huge if you're into russian folktales.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2017 21:58
|
|
|
Angels? They exist, next question please. That's the general Southern Baptist view. Not a subject we/they (I'm still more or less Southern Baptist by theology, just not by politics) spend much time on outside Bible stories.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 04:25
|
|
|
My usual parish prays the Prayer of St. Michael after every Mass. Angels are very much our poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 04:41
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:Angels? They exist, next question please. Yeah, it's pretty much this. Angels probably exist. You've probably met a few, in fact, but didn't recognize them. Which is as it's supposed to be.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 04:55
|
|
|
I wouldn't mind having a guardian angel that is wheels upon wheels and the fluttering of fire wings and the eyes the eyes eyes eyes eyes oh God
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 05:41
|
|
|
I think angels would get more respect if they were columns of fire. Instead of, at best, winged humans with great hair. Also if you haven't watched Father Ted to do. Its a startlingly accurate documentary.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 07:25
|
|
|
JcDent posted:I wouldn't mind having a guardian angel that is wheels upon wheels and the fluttering of fire wings and the eyes the eyes eyes eyes eyes oh God No lie, having the flaming wheel kind of angel as a hang-around would be kickin' rad! Josef bugman posted:I think angels would get more respect if they were columns of fire. Instead of, at best, winged humans with great hair. "I'm not a fascist! I'm a priest! Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do!" <3
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 10:10
|
|
|
JcDent posted:I wouldn't mind having a guardian angel that is wheels upon wheels and the fluttering of fire wings and the eyes the eyes eyes eyes eyes oh God everyone does 
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 11:03
|
|
|
Everything I know about angel shapes I learned from castlevania
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 13:08
|
|
|
One thing I love about the Divine Liturgy is the explicit reference to the Seraphim, "six-winged, many-eyed" in one of the priest's prayers. In Cyrillic, there's even a rare variation of the letter O just for the many-eyed Seraphim: multiocular O.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 13:24
|
|
|
Keromaru5 posted:the Seraphim, "six-winged, many-eyed" ...
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 14:01
|
|
|
Man, God is such a badass.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 14:16
|
|
|
 the sodomite month
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 15:58
|
|
|
mods rename me to Meme, Discussion, or Praying
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 16:00
|
|
|
my dad posted:
Just the other day I found a closed Facebook group called "Catholic Theology Geeks" and I thought to myself, sounds great, where do I sign up? Yesterday I got admitted into the group, I open it... and it's literally just a right-wing tradcath echo chamber whose "theology" discussions consisted of seeing who could hate gays and liberals the hardest. I was a member of that group for all of maybe 20 seconds. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 16:36
|
|
|
About homosexuality, there's the "some people want to marry a person of the same gender" side to it and I don't really see anything wrong with that. I guess they can't have children together but maybe they'll find a child somewhere that needs raising, or maybe they can focus on other virtuous stuff. Then there's the various movements that preach an aesthetic or political preference for man/man or woman/woman love, and some of these I like and others I think are bad. But when I read about gay culture it seems pretty common for there to be an aspect of self destructive, anonymous mass sexuality where people meet in very shady places and have sex without a bit of concern for the identity of the other person. And I'd say I do think that's wrong. Not so much because of the genders, it just seems contrary to a good life in the same way that extreme drinking or drugs are. Now I don't really know any gay people personally (except one of my close friends is getting married to another woman, but that's not really typical for her), so I can't really judge if this is really a common thing, or if I've been bamboozled by the media. And it's not really any of my business, so I don't make judging gay people a big part of my identity. But I guess I wouldn't embrace every aspect of that lifestyle, if that makes sense?
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 16:53
|
|
|
pidan posted:Now I don't really know any gay people personally (except one of my close friends is getting married to another woman, but that's not really typical for her), so I can't really judge if this is really a common thing, or if I've been bamboozled by the media. And it's not really any of my business, so I don't make judging gay people a big part of my identity. But I guess I wouldn't embrace every aspect of that lifestyle, if that makes sense? There's also a whole lot of that "self destructive, anonymous mass sexuality" being a common thing for straight people, too, it's just not socially shamed as much.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 17:38
|
|
|
No one's forcing you to embrace anything, so maybe stop embracing weird stereotypes about how gay people have sex?
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 17:43
|
|
|
To the extent that sketchy anonymous hookups are even a "thing" in the gay community any more than elsewhere, it no doubt has a lot to do with "normal" relationships being discouraged or forbidden socially and/or legally to this very day. It's not like people were going, "boy, this truck stop restroom sure is romantic, who needs marriage equality!"
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 18:26
|
|
|
pidan posted:But when I read about gay culture it seems pretty common for there to be an aspect of self destructive, anonymous mass sexuality where people meet in very shady places and have sex without a bit of concern for the identity of the other person. And I'd say I do think that's wrong. Not so much because of the genders, it just seems contrary to a good life in the same way that extreme drinking or drugs are. "Anonymous mass sexuality" is not at all a part of mainstream gay culture. It happens in places like "bathhouses" (sex clubs) and I'm aware of sex parties being a thing but that's a small slice of the LGBT community engaging in those. I agree with your general point, abusing drugs and indiscriminate sex is risky and not healthy for a person, but it's specifically used as propaganda to justify discrimination against LGBT people. The same things happen in the straight community, and considering 5-10% of the population are LGBT there are probably more straight people in the world into self-destructive partying and indiscriminate sex. Whenever this comes up I think of the AIDS epidemic. Gay men were heavily stigmatized as being degenerate perverts who brought AIDS on themselves, they deserved it, it's a gay disease. It's a moral panic used to justify all sorts of discrimination. It's like talking about black people and "thug culture." You're buying into gross stereotypes such as black people are innately violent or gay people are inherently into orgies and drugs.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 18:35
|
|
|
i think that each one of us is supposed to think that he, she, or they is, as the prayer before communion says, "the first of sinners" and not judge what others do or not do
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 19:04
|
|
|
pidan posted:About homosexuality, there's the "some people want to marry a person of the same gender" side to it and I don't really see anything wrong with that. I guess they can't have children together but maybe they'll find a child somewhere that needs raising, or maybe they can focus on other virtuous stuff. i'm p sure if that your friend is marrying a lady than liking ladies is pretty drat typical of her. maybe there's a reason she hasn't exposed that side of herself to you?
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 20:07
|
|
|
cis autodrag posted:i'm p sure if that your friend is marrying a lady than liking ladies is pretty drat typical of her. maybe there's a reason she hasn't exposed that side of herself to you? Also, some people are bisexual.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 20:10
|
|
|
If meeting in "polite society" gets you lynched then you meet in shady places because you have little alternative. There's nothing about being gay that makes you self destructive other than the way you'll be treated because of it, and I sincerely hope you understand who is to blame in that instance.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 21:04
|
|
|
cis autodrag posted:i'm p sure if that your friend is marrying a lady than liking ladies is pretty drat typical of her. maybe there's a reason she hasn't exposed that side of herself to you? Without going into too much detail, she has always dated men and still does, and when we talked about this a few years ago when I thought of myself as bisexual, she specifically said she doesn't understand attraction to women. Then she got involved with a very sex-positive crowd, and after breaking off her last engagement decided to give lady love a chance. Not everybody fits the "born this way" narrative. HEY GAIL posted:i think that each one of us is supposed to think that he, she, or they is, as the prayer before communion says, "the first of sinners" and not judge what others do or not do I agree that there's no reason for gay people to care how I feel about them. And even when somebody does something I think is bad for them, I certainly don't think they deserve to get sick or to be discriminated against. But on the other hand, I feel like being pro-gay (as opposed to "no opinion") has become central to what people think makes a good person. So I just want to figure out where I stand w/r/t that. Pellisworth posted:"Anonymous mass sexuality" is not at all a part of mainstream gay culture. It happens in places like "bathhouses" (sex clubs) and I'm aware of sex parties being a thing but that's a small slice of the LGBT community engaging in those. I really appreciate your response. What I see of gay culture are the things that are visible and get attention in mainstream culture - the parades where people march through the streets in leather underpants, the "saunas" in various parts of town, the people who write to Dan Savage about their sexual relationships. And in that context, people in promiscuous or non-monogamous situations are probably very over-represented. Now that I think about it, I do know a bunch of straight people who go to sex clubs or have many partners. So I can accept that the extreme examples I've heard about gay men are rare and not representative. And many of them are from the 70s and 80s -- it makes sense that people who cannot openly live a long-term relationship would be more likely to seek affection in other ways. I feel like a bit of an idiot that I didn't properly consider that earlier. I never thought gay people are inherently into dangerous sex and drugs though, I generally don't think any specific group of people is "inherently" drawn to any behavior.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 21:05
|
|
|
Unless you're actually being expected to advocate for gay supremacism (which, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with) being "pro gay" means you should recognize the suffering people have been subjected to and how it may have affected them, and that simply living through that should elicit a degree of respect and consideration, and those in the process of dealing with it should be afforded the support and compassion that I would expect you to afford anybody who suffers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 21:10
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Unless you're actually being expected to advocate for gay supremacism (which, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with) being "pro gay" means you should recognize the suffering people have been subjected to and how it may have affected them, and that simply living through that should elicit a degree of respect and consideration, and those in the process of dealing with it should be afforded the support and compassion that I would expect you to afford anybody who suffers. I definitely do agree with your definition, but I feel like, at least on the internet, some additional things are expected: - support making gay marriage totally equal to het marriage, including in religion and when it comes to adopting children - support legal action against people who e.g. preach against homosexuality or refuse to participate in a gay wedding - support every form of gay relationships equally, from the monogamous marriage to the stereotypical sex club - oppose people who think that a het lifestyle is preferable or more moral than a gay one
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 21:24
|
|
|
pidan posted:I definitely do agree with your definition, but I feel like, at least on the internet, some additional things are expected: I think you're projecting a lot here that's not really true or advocated by many LGBT people. Since this is the Christianity thread, what do you mean by making gay marriages totally equal in terms of religion? No one is trying to force Catholic priests to perform same-sex ceremonies or things like that, at least in the US. Also, to be blunt, I don't think a "stereotypical sex club" is actually what you think it is, and they've also fallen massively in popularity at least around here. A lot of saunas / bathhouses are mainly places where you can (cheaply) rent some private space to get it on with your boyfriend or whatever since you don't have a safe, private place of your own. Maybe with a bit of voyeurism if you're into that. e: basically, a lot of people use(d) saunas instead of getting a hotel room. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jun 16, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 21:34
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:There's nothing about being gay that makes you self destructive other than the way you'll be treated because of it, and I sincerely hope you understand who is to blame in that instance. In general this is true, but I'm not sure that social oppression had anything to do with the fondness for Broadway musicals.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 21:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 13:58 |
|
|
pidan posted:I definitely do agree with your definition, but I feel like, at least on the internet, some additional things are expected: 1) Yes, because adoption is a very good thing and people who do it are very good people, you should support anybody who wishes to adopt. You should also support anybody who is willing to dedicate their lives to the welfare and care of another, which is what a worthy marriage means. 2) You can't be sued for not going to a gay wedding, that's not how it works. State and public enterprises however have a duty of equal service to all, if you cannot fulfill that duty you are not fit to hold public office and there is a very good historical reason why we don't allow publicly trading businesses to decide which groups of people they don't want to serve. 3) You should support healthy relationships whatever form they take, which has very little to do with whether they are monogamous or polyamorous. Some people prefer one or the other, and you are not expected to support relationships based on exploitation or abuse however many people it may involve, that's not what sex positivity is. 4) Such people are operating on faulty premises and should have their error explained, at the least, or if they are more vehemently opposed, you can escalate your opposition. They are wrong, either way, however and the only excuse for allowing wrongness to persist is an unwillingness or inability to correct it. And I think that at the very least, you can state your disagreement. Granted I haven't ever had any sort of catechism even when I was a believer but I would think that all of these things really should find common cause with elements of Christian teaching, human care for other humans is surely noble and sex/romantic love is not separate from that. Yes some people use sex abusively but they do that regardless of their sexuality and they also do it with every other thing on the face of the earth. I think it is a very... unconsidered... position, to put it most charitably, to believe that the object of one's attraction is the determining factor in whether it is ethical or not. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jun 16, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2017 21:53
|
|