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Robindaybird posted:The shower trick might've hosed him over, but it's likely in his eyes worth to gently caress with her. How so? Wasn't it there to make noise and take up her attention while he slipped out? Or at least did something that takes time and makes noise itself? If that's all, I'll be a little disappointed: the cheese episode made me hope for fuckery with the shape or extension of the closed room. But maybe that will come later. Oh! That reminds me! For a while, everyone's been saying that there were "three room's worth" of duct tape, but I thought at first that it was three door or window's worth. Was that just me being incompetent?
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Jun 17, 2017 17:21
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Doc Hawkins posted:How so? Wasn't it there to make noise and take up her attention while he slipped out? Or at least did something that takes time and makes noise itself? There was a line saying it wasn't three doors/windows because that would only cover a single room max, that might be what you're thinking of.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:30
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Battler is the best toy a witch could ask for. Twist him however you like and he comes back for more.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:32
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Doc Hawkins posted:How so? Wasn't it there to make noise and take up her attention while he slipped out? Or at least did something that takes time and makes noise itself? Yeah, I think this is it. Would it be valid for the seal to break while she's in the bathroom?
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Jun 17, 2017 17:41
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Yeah, I think this is it. Would it be valid for the seal to break while she's in the bathroom? The seal on the door is already broken, Erika entered the room.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:45
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Doc Hawkins posted:How so? Wasn't it there to make noise and take up her attention while he slipped out? Or at least did something that takes time and makes noise itself? Too bad Battler agreed that the events taking place inside the room all happen simultaneously. Somehow. Battler, Incompetent, etc.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:48
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tiistai posted:The seal on the door is already broken, Erika entered the room.  Right. So the obvious solution is that he could have slipped out. However, he's trapped in the room at the beginning of this episode, so the obvious answers have probably already been tried and ruled out.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:01
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The shower's probably going to lead to something else later on (if it's not there only to gently caress with Erika) Battler's going to show up completely dry and we need to work out how he pulled it off. The lack of water drops leading out of the room proves he set up the shower then vanished with magic or something. Or the witch disappeared him with magic, I forget if pieceBattler's meant to be magic in the story, or if it's only metaBattler taking part in the love quest.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:51
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I'm pretty sure line of sight was broken for a sufficient amount of time while Erika was cooling her arms. The sound would theoretically mask any sign of movement. Unless Erika was smart enough to counter that, which I suppose we'll see. This 'except for one location' bit bothers me, because it depends on what wasn't checked, and if measures were taken to counter that or not. The progression of time setup is weird here, so I'll withhold judgement until the next section is revealed. ZiegeDame posted:Just because Kanon started working less than 6 years ago doesn't mean he never set foot on the island. And that it is Jessica who says it just means she doesn't remember. And that Shannon can quote what Battler said to her merely serves to illustrate that Battler had a habit of making frivolous promises to girl to make himself look cool. George even confirms this episode that 12 year old Battler flirted with all the servant girls, not just Shannon. Which also proves that there were other servants around that age. And we can't say for sure that Kanon isn't one of them, especially if Kanon is a woman pretending to be a man. But that's mostly guesswork at this time. I will agree that meeting Battler threw him off. However, I don't think that Devil's Proof can't be used as the deciding clue. "It can't be proven that it didn't happen" doesn't mean "there is a clue that it happened". There are tons of possible reasons, the most likely possible one probably being "he heard about Battler from someone else" (the one I'm presently going with).
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Jun 17, 2017 19:40
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Okay, so Lambda's the one making the final call concerning whether a logic error exists. I... don't know how to feel about that, but at least the question's been answered?
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Jun 17, 2017 20:03
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The "except for one location" thing is the same bullshit she tried to place Kinzo in Natsuhi's room. He isn't in all of the places that aren't X, so he must be in X. Remember how Battler demanded a location for her blue text? That's what she's going to give. Which continues to be a terrible way to solve anything. Also, I don't understand why everything is happening simultaneously or why Battler agreed to it (incompetence, etc). It means the whole distraction was pointless because no time was taken. And I still suspect that Erika is the one trapped in the room. The game has been very careful with that person's identity, Battler would be too obvious, and it fits what Bern threatened to do. Oh, and Lambda being able to say that she's impartial in red is, uh, absurd.
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Jun 17, 2017 20:08
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Cyouni posted:I'm pretty sure line of sight was broken for a sufficient amount of time while Erika was cooling her arms. The sound would theoretically mask any sign of movement. Unless Erika was smart enough to counter that, which I suppose we'll see. This 'except for one location' bit bothers me, because it depends on what wasn't checked, and if measures were taken to counter that or not. The "deciding clue" is the overwhelming mountain of evidence that Kanon is the killer. So the question isn't 'what evidence conclusively point to a motive of Kanon' but 'what evidence could conceivably indicate a motive for Kanon.' We can't know the killer's motive for 100% certain until the confession, anyway, so at this point I'm throwing out all the blue I can and waiting for the game to either confirm or deny it. You're not gonna accomplish much trying to poke holes into what I have openly admitted several times is mostly guesswork. I'm not really sure the reader is expected to correctly identify the precise motive, other than Battler's SinTM, because we are at a real disadvantage compared to Battler in that regard. Qrr posted:Oh, and Lambda being able to say that she's impartial in red is, uh, absurd. Technically the red only asserts that she did in fact swear she is impartial. Self-fulfilling red.
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Jun 17, 2017 20:22
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Man, they certainly are not going easy on Erika's title as an intellectual rapist. 
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Jun 17, 2017 20:48
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Battler, you are...very bad at this.
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Jun 17, 2017 21:33
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Qrr posted:Also, I don't understand why everything is happening simultaneously or why Battler agreed to it (incompetence, etc). It means the whole distraction was pointless because no time was taken. I read 'everything happening simultaneously' as being the reason why Erika could retcon that she sealed Battlers room, and Battler can retcon that he was actually dead all along, it's on a meta level, not that everything literally happens at the same time in story so the shower distraction couldn't work because Erika was both checking it out and also in the bedroom.
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Jun 17, 2017 22:13
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ZiegeDame posted:The "deciding clue" is the overwhelming mountain of evidence that Kanon is the killer. So the question isn't 'what evidence conclusively point to a motive of Kanon' but 'what evidence could conceivably indicate a motive for Kanon.' We can't know the killer's motive for 100% certain until the confession, anyway, so at this point I'm throwing out all the blue I can and waiting for the game to either confirm or deny it. You're not gonna accomplish much trying to poke holes into what I have openly admitted several times is mostly guesswork. I disagree - disregarding motive when it's come up so many times seems like a mistake to me, especially when it was such a large part of the fourth game, and came up again in the fifth. The fact that you're discounting the pursuit because it doesn't fit within your theory suggests a degree of confirmation bias. I submit instead: without both Shannon and Kanon, Beatrice is incomplete. I admit that this is a harder theory to prove, but I feel it covers more things that yours leaves unanswered. (And yes, it does imply that both of them are taking actions for the vast majority of each game.) Shannon has the motive, while Kanon has the opportunity for most of the murders. If you want me to supply the full rationale behind my answer, I can.
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Jun 17, 2017 22:19
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ZiegeDame posted:I'm not really sure the reader is expected to correctly identify the precise motive, other than Battler's SinTM, because we are at a real disadvantage compared to Battler in that regard. Do you have the trust in the author to believe the who/how/whydunnit are solvable, or is reasoning about it impossible?
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Jun 17, 2017 22:53
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Cyouni posted:I disagree - disregarding motive when it's come up so many times seems like a mistake to me, especially when it was such a large part of the fourth game, and came up again in the fifth. The fact that you're discounting the pursuit because it doesn't fit within your theory suggests a degree of confirmation bias. I'm agnostic on Shannon's involvement, I believe I've found a solution for every trick with or without her involvement, but if Beatrice turns out to be a shared identity of Kanon and Shannon or whatever, it won't break my theory. I'm not saying to ignore motive completely. There are plenty of hints to speculate as to Beato's motive, and indeed I have done so. But the victory condition for the human side is to explain how all the tricks could have been done by humans, not to fully know the mind of the culprit. Unlike Battler, I cannot remember what he said or did six years ago without the game master coming out and saying it, so I am at a disadvantage in that regard. I suppose my question for you would be, if Beato's goal is to have Battler acknowledge her efforts (at creating a murder mystery) why is Kanon doing all the leg work if Shannon is the one who wants to be noticed? tiistai posted:Do you have the trust in the author to believe the who/how/whydunnit are solvable, or is reasoning about it impossible? I trust that's it's solvable, not that it's solvable in any order. And now I'm responding to like three different people in the same line so the real question is following my reasoning possible.
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Jun 17, 2017 23:16
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ZD, I'm not sure if we'll reach any kind of agreement because you're into your theory because of personal stuff, and I'm into my theory because of personal stuff. All the same, I'm hopeful that we'll both find something fulfilling in this, once the author lays it all out.  
witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Jun 18, 2017 |
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Jun 18, 2017 06:43
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Krauss sincerely believed in moon tourism. Jessica is Moon-chan. Coincidence? I think not. Happy Father's day!
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Jun 18, 2017 09:11
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 As Erika lightly raised her right hand, a single gold butterfly appeared from the darkness behind her, flitted between the index finger and middle finger of Erika's raised hand, and became a white piece. Then, she lifted it high into the air...  "This is the one exception. The walk-in closet next to the entrance!!"Bang!! Like a falling white lightning bolt, the white piece hit the board... landing by a weak spot in Battler's formation...  "Yes, it is HERE...!!!"With a crash, the door of the closet, which was just off to the side of the guest room's entrance, was impaled by a spear that represented the blue truth. Dlanor had spun around and thrown it. The door was completely pierced, and the spear stuck in so deeply that if a human had been hiding in it, it would have pierced their chest as well. Its still quivering handle was a testament to the force with which it had been thrown.  "..." "There are no places in which to hide other than THIS. You are now hiding in HERE." "...What do you say, Battler-san...? Have you been struck through the chest, for a literal Smothered Mate...?" "..." "...Battler-san. It's our move now." "Yeah. I thought it would be like that, Erika. You intentionally left one spot open so you could stuff me into that coffin. It's the same move that trapped Kinzo in Natsuhi's room. I saw this move coming." "Oh, did you? Then let's see your response. But let me make a prediction." "Let's hear it." BGM: Solitary Deep Sea Fish  "Then I'll make the same prediction. I'll checkmate you in just two moves." "...Sounds interesting." "...These predictions contradict each other. Who will be the liar, I wonder...?"The air burst and sparked. The silence would hurt one's skin.  "Then GO. It is your TURN." "...It's useless. Your lowly coffin won't be able to trap Battler-san." "Here's my response."Slowly, Battler held his hand over the chess board. A gold butterfly that had appeared from the darkness rested on Battler's finger and became a black piece. That black piece was the king, which represented Battler. "...This is my response... to your 'Battler is hiding in the closet'... Take this." Like a black bolt of lightning this time, Battler slammed his piece down on the white piece of Erika's that had cut deep behind his lines... crushing her piece. It scattered like a golden spray and melted beautifully into the darkness as a faint cloud of gold sparks drifted about...   "It's the same technique he used to let Kinzo escape from the study in the last game. Distract the observation of the observer, and disappear into the darkness." BGM: None Next was Erika's turn. A gold butterfly popped into existence in front of Erika... and she grabbed it right out of the air. She then lifted that hand into the air... and raised the white piece high.  BGM: Patchwork Chimera  "Objection. Gohda severed the chain back when the crime was first discovered. Since the chain lock is not functioning, it is impossible to use it to create a seal." "Objection overruled. Erika repaired the chain lock. ...See?" "...Impossible. How could she have repaired a brass chain?" "It is possible to repair. Have you forgotten, Beato? The duct tape seals. Erika used that duct tape to join the two cut ends of the chain together, 'sealing' them. In other words, the chain was repaired by the duct tape, and this room once again became a closed room locked from the inside." "O, objection. Erika-san has already used up her duct tape seals, hasn't she...?! She shouldn't be able to use them anymore...!" "Objection overruled. The use of the duct tape wasn't limited by the number of strips, right? It was by the number of rooms. The only restriction was to limit it to only three rooms. Erika chose this guest room to be one of those rooms. So, Erika has the right to seal as many places as many times as she wants within this room." "...Gah..." "...That's right. I... gave her permission to do that." "This is what you get for your PRIDE. Sympathy is the evil liquor that the proud are most fond of." "So, with this retroactive move, I proclaim that the chain lock has been repaired by the duct tape seal and has regained its original functionality. And, thanks to that, I locked the room upon entering it and made this guest room a closed room from the inside once more."The white piece Erika held aloft... represented the seal caused by the chain lock. This move would draw out Battler's king and drag it to the guillotine.  "Die, Battler."The piece for the chain lock was slammed down right at Battler's king's throat.   "...!"Battler's face contorted. Beato, who was watching from behind, grimaced even more. This move... was very painful. If his logic said that he had hidden in the closet until Erika left and used the uproar in the bathroom to escape, then the chain lock must have been unset. In other words, he couldn't respond to this demand. If he didn't respond, Erika would use the blue truth in her next move. She would probably say 'you hid in the closet, then used the disturbance in the bathroom to escape. Since you then couldn't set the chain lock from the outside, you left it undone'... And she would be right. This was... checkmate. As Erika had predicted, she would strike the finishing blow on the second move. And on top of that, she would probably use the disappearing Battler to solve most of the crimes that were to follow. Losing the battle in this closed room would steal a major deciding piece from Battler...  What if he could say 'the lock created by the chain is still intact'? That... would be fatal to Erika. It had already been shown with the red truth that this guest room could only be made into a closed room from the inside. So, this hopeless closed room would instead become Erika's coffin. For a riddle like this, Erika probably wouldn't solve the mystery of Battler's disappearance until the end. Each unsolved riddle gives an advantage to the witch side. Battler... wanted to respond to this demand if at all possible. However, if he responded... If he answered by saying that the chain was still set... He would have to abandon the logic saying that he had escaped while Erika wasn't looking. Once he escaped, he wouldn't be able to set the chain lock again. It would make a riddle to corner Erika, but he would have to construct a different escape method. Even a move such as him leaving the closet during the scene in the bathroom and hiding in another place--say, under the bed--wouldn't work because he had proclaimed that 'Battler does not exist within the guest room'. If he could construct logic that allowed him to escape from here while preserving the chain lock's position, then Erika would be the one facing a fatal blow. However, if he didn't have that logic... if he failed... it would be a logic error. The worst and lowest forbidden move that would instantly end the game in his defeat. He would have no way to recover. For Battler, deciding how to respond to this demand... was a very advanced and difficult decision...  "B, Battler-san. This guest room has already been restricted in many ways by the red truth due to its closed room nature. How do you plan on escaping from this...?!" "...If only I could do something about the chain lock... If only..."If he could somehow trick the matter of the chain lock, he could make Erika have to deal with a terrible closed room! It would probably end up as a finishing blow to her. But in order to do that, he would need to make a trick for escaping 'the closed room that existed before Erika came back'... which was now 'the closed room sealed by the chain that Erika set right after entering the room', and on top of that, he had to make sure that 'the chain that could only be set from the inside remained in place'...! If he could do that... if he could find a way... then it would end here...! But I still can't think of that trick...! Right now, Erika is demanding to know whether the chain lock is still set or not. I need to decide whether I'll take that challenge or back down... and I need to do it right now...! If I can find a certain-win trick, then this is the end...! But if I don't have that trick, I should just acknowledge that I slipped out of the closet, undid the chain, and escaped... and back out of the fight... If I say the chain was set without a trick up my sleeve, then it's impossible for me to escape. In other words, it's a logic error...!!  "Even if we lose the fight in this room, there will still be chances left to us. We've still only started the second day, haven't we? We have plenty of time to reconstruct an impossible murder." "...No, that's no good. If I acknowledge that I've escaped from this room now, it's the same as acknowledging that I'm the culprit! If I back down from the fight in this room, it's the same as accepting my defeat in this game."Battler's point was a valid one. Since all of the other humans were still locked in the guesthouse... then if Battler alone was alive and free to move... Erika would probably base her explanation for all of the following impossible crimes on the blue truth that Battler was the perpetrator. If they wanted to forcefully turn that around, they would have to rewrite their tricks and logic so that 'someone other than Battler' would be set up as the perpetrator. To fix up one flaw, they would have to create new flaws, and the flaws might eventually pile up and kill Battler. Even running away would mean tightening the noose around his own throat. The first truth... that Battler is the culprit... has already been hit upon! And yet, I have to struggle desperately to get out of this...! I need to...!! I'm on the edge. I've definitely been cornered in a dangerous spot. However, if I can just change my position, everything might turn around at once... If I can just make this chain my weapon... I can kill Erika...!!  "Yeah, it's clear. No matter what move we choose, it'll turn for the worst just as Erika wants. If it's horrible either way, I'd like to choose the move that has the biggest reward if we win...!" "...You're going to call even though you have no logic for escaping and no trump cards? You think you can accept her demand and win...?!" "My cards might be useless. However, with just one more card, they might become a straight, a flush, or even a royal flush. If hell waits for me after both options, I'll take the one that'll finish her off if I win...!" "Th, that's an insane move. Sometimes, when madmen jump into the path of death, a miracle will occur..." "It's impossible!! H, how could you escape this closed room without removing the chain?!!" "...There's only one difference between heroes and madmen. It's whether they win or lose. I'll be looking forward... to your big victory..."If I can finish things with this move, then as I predicted, I can kill Erika on my second move. I still can't think of a trick for escaping this closed room. However, there has to be something... there has to... Once I think of that, I can make a magic illusion of me changing into a butterfly and slipping out of the crack in the door like smoke... If I have even a drop of that mad magician's blood in my veins, please let that honor... give me just a fragment of a miracle right now...!  BGM: None "Please give an answer to Lady Erika's DEMAND. Will you RESPOND, or will you REFUSE...?!"Slowly... Battler's hand stretched out to his king piece on the board. He lifted it up... and slowly... held it aloft... tracing a large circle in the sky... Would Battler respond... or wouldn't he? Would the lock caused by the chain be preserved, or wouldn't it? Would Battler's king crush the piece of the chain lock that stood right in front of it...? Or would it slip away like a ghost... and escape...  "This is... my response. As predicted, on my second turn... you're through. Here it comes. Furudo... Erika... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!"Battler's king had become a black lightning bolt and crashed down onto the board... Where had it gone?! On top of the piece of the chain lock? Or past that piece...?  BGM: Infant Queen Bee Battler's king... had left the chain lock piece in its place... and had slipped past it...  "Heh, heheheheheheheh... Yeah, it sure would be cool if you could say that the chain lock was still set, wouldn't it...? Don't you think that'd be cool...? But do you know what they call a fool, who's full of himself and jumps into the path of death just because it's cool...?" "...No clue..."  "That red truth of yours just now has cut off your own logic!! Please have the impartial referee make her judgment immediately!! Great Lady Lambdadelta aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!" "Motion received. Lambdadelta. Does this make logical sense? Your inspection please." "Motion received. Battler. Show me. Let me see... your cards..." "...Battler... san..." "...It is a royal flush... right...? If you've got nothing, you won't get out of this with just a 'sorry', okay...?" "...Yeah. I have no intention of apologizing." "...If it's a logic error, the game board will be blown away. You have inherited this game board from Beato. It's the one thing, you have left of that precious Beato. So, you must not accept a logic error." As long as they can keep thinking of new logic to escape with, they will not die, cannot die. However, that would be like living in an endless living hell of the mind. "...Even if you manage to crawl around forever after falling onto the darkness of thought, you'll just be eternally trapped in a hell where you constantly think of ways to escape the closed room while denying the logic error. Are you sure?! Are you sure?! This is nearly as bad as the depths of oblivion, got it?!?! It's like the difference between falling from the roof of a ten story building and falling from the roof of a hundred story building!!" "...Lambda. Battler has already finished making his move. Players can't take back a move once it's made. Act as an impartial judge, carry out our motion, and see whether or not Battler's escape from the closed room is logical... and whether there has been a logic error or not." "Be slow, accurate, and meticulous like an archeologist. And, be as fast as a guy at an ice cream shop when he forcefully and skillfully scoops out that sweet, fragrant vanilla/soy sauce ice cream!!!" "Y, yes, I know that. Battler... let me see it." "Beato, do you think I'll lose?" "...I don't want to think that. After fighting with the old me many times, you finally reached the miracle that I so wanted you to find. So, I'd like to believe... that you'll win through a miracle once again...!" "...This woman called Beatrice... The whole time... she fought on that same border between reason and madness. She fought with a mixture of sadness, anger, and several other emotions for me that can't be described with words. And in the very last game... at the very last moment... she managed... to seize victory."That might... have been the purpose of the card Beato had been gripping as she fell. Beato passed away... without realizing that she had won. In the final game... the true victor... was Beato... "That Beato entrusted me with this game board. So, I'll win. So, I need you alone to believe in me. Beatrice..." "If I believe, and a miracle occurs..." "...Please." "I do believe in you...!! Battler-san...!!!" "It'd be so cool if you vanished even though the chain is still set, wouldn't it? Kyaaaaaaaaaaaa hhahhaaaaaaaaahhh!! Like hell you caaaaaaaaannn!! Like hell you can do iiiiiiiit!! If you could do that, you really would be a witch!" "If you could vanish your way out of this closed room like a puff of smoke, I'd have to acknowledge it! It'd be the work of a wiiiiiiiitch!!!" "Quiet, Lady Erika! Lady Lambdadelta is conducting her INSPECTION." BGM: None With sweat gathering on her forehead, Lambdadelta inspected the movements of the pieces from Battler's side. She was as accurate and meticulous as an archeologist, just as Bernkastel had told her to be. "..."After gulping stiffly, Lambda looked between the formation of the pieces on the board... and Battler's face, which remained tense but steady. "...Lambda...?" "...I have... finished my inspection..." "There's no way the logic works...!" "...Please... God..." "..." "...Erika." "What...?" "I'm very sorry." "Wh, which way am I supposed to take that...?!!" "It was fun. Now, this is the end." "I told you, which way am I supposed to take thaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!!" "Silence!! I have finished inspecting Battler's move. My decision-"   
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Jun 18, 2017 14:28
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So far, this has all proceeded as I predicted, though Battler's red being effective was a bit surprising. Let's see if the next move follows my predictions as well. Blue truth: Battler simply moved to another place in the room that had already been checked. Can you survive that play, Ushiromiya Battler? ZiegeDame posted:I'm agnostic on Shannon's involvement, I believe I've found a solution for every trick with or without her involvement, but if Beatrice turns out to be a shared identity of Kanon and Shannon or whatever, it won't break my theory. There are two factors that have been previously established. First, Kanon is willing to take actions for Shannon's benefit even if they're disadvantageous to him. Second, Kanon bears a grudge against the Ushiromiya family (or at the very least, certain members - Eva and Gohda were called out by name at the beginning). Both these factors allow for the one performing the murders to be Kanon even if he has no motive, without the need for any bribes or other influences. I don't view our job to be complete when we explain how all the tricks can be conceivably committed by humans. A complete and total solution that covers not just 'who' and 'how', but 'why' is what I seek. And I have enough faith in the author to believe that it is possible. Difficult perhaps, but possible.
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Jun 18, 2017 14:56
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Erika has the best faces  Cyouni posted:So far, this has all proceeded as I predicted, though Battler's red being effective was a bit surprising. Let's see if the next move follows my predictions as well. ProfessorProf posted:Even a move such as him leaving the closet during the scene in the bathroom and hiding in another place--say, under the bed--wouldn't work because he had proclaimed that 'Battler does not exist within the guest room'. Graylien fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Jun 18, 2017 |
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Jun 18, 2017 15:07
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Cyouni posted:So far, this has all proceeded as I predicted, though Battler's red being effective was a bit surprising. Let's see if the next move follows my predictions as well. It's still not that hard to get him out with a variation on that, though. He'd just have to change places with someone outside - since I suspect that the story is going to want to keep the other two rooms sealed, it would be likely to be one of the people that appeared to be dead before. That person can put the chain back on and hide somewhere in the room without creating a contradiction while Battler strolls off somewhere else. (And since Erika isn't the detective, they can potentially keep hiding in different places in the room without getting caught by her.)
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Jun 18, 2017 15:12
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idonotlikepeas posted:
Seems viable to me, and likely to be the answer in the absence of other possibilities. I also just noticed that they specifically blocked that move already. Still, I feel there's possibly another move that didn't involve another person's assistance, and I'd like to see if we can find it if it exists. Edit: That's still probably the answer given that the other closed rooms are exactly like this one, making it extremely likely that they're not dead. Edit2: Just realized I may have jumped the gun in my assumptions. Since "Effective" was always been used in reference to blue truth, I took it as granted that it referred to the red in this case. However, Lambda never specified what was 'effective' because it was cut off, and since we know Battler is forced into a logic error, it seems more likely to me that the motion to declare a logic error is effective. However, searching for more ways to escape from the closed room is still a good plan, given I assume this will be broken in some way later, letting us assemble our cards in advance for that point. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jun 18, 2017 |
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Jun 18, 2017 15:19
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I'm not sure how this works on the Meta level. Battler became territory lord through figuring out the Truth of the game. Shouldn't that grant him a huge advantage in this since presumably that covers all the details of the island? Edit: advantage in presumably covering up the real truth of the matter I mean, since he is on the Witch side now. Artificer fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jun 18, 2017 |
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Jun 18, 2017 16:28
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I'm more familiar with Higurashi, so it's sort of surprising to see Erika and Berkanstel being such completely unrepentant assholes. Witches, man. No sense of right and wrong.
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Jun 18, 2017 16:40
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I think I get it. Battler solved the riddle at some point and is the new Kinzo, right? Er, is that plot point even in play?
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Jun 18, 2017 16:52
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I'mma laugh if Battler just jumped out the window again in the hope that Erika would forget to check those seals. Also, what happens if someone brings up Battler-kun isn't the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This can be said of all games. witchcore ricepunk posted:ZD, I'm not sure if we'll reach any kind of agreement because you're into your theory because of personal stuff, and I'm into my theory because of personal stuff. All the same, I'm hopeful that we'll both find something fulfilling in this, once the author lays it all out. By way of apology for how things went before, have this"Shannon" refers specifically to a servant working for the Ushiromiya household. When she isn't working, she isn't working, or is wearing a different of her many masks, she is not Shannon. In this way, we could say that if "Shannon" refers to one physical object more than any other, it is the uniform she wears, not her flesh-and-blood body. That uniform is stashed in a closet or under the bed in the next room over, while the meat body is in the cousin's room as Kanon. Kumasawa and Nanjo are accomplices, so they wouldn't say anything. George is likewise a accomplice in this game (see sub-meta lovers contest) and Hideyoshi must also be an accomplice per episode 1. Erika, meanwhile, knows something is fishy, but she says nothing because she only cares about trapping Battler in a logic error. Cyouni posted:There are two factors that have been previously established. First, Kanon is willing to take actions for Shannon's benefit even if they're disadvantageous to him. Second, Kanon bears a grudge against the Ushiromiya family (or at the very least, certain members - Eva and Gohda were called out by name at the beginning). Both these factors allow for the one performing the murders to be Kanon even if he has no motive, without the need for any bribes or other influences. So are you saying that Shannon is the mastermind who plotted out the murders, and Kanon merely carried them out for her? Or that Kanon is acting without Shannon in a way that he believes will help her? How do you account for all the times Shannon ends up dead? Remember, Her goal [..] isn't to have revenge on someone.
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Jun 18, 2017 17:14
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Whew, just caught up on the past week of the thread. I've had to step back a bit, as working a full time job and taking Night Classes is a bit of a fucker, but man, that was a heck of a week, right? You know, sometimes it's tough being a Witch. By our nature, we understand every aspect of the gameboard--front, back, and around. We generally like to use this privilege to gently caress with you all. If The Writer's game with you all is akin to chess, our game is--like Battler and Erikas--more like poker. Anything we say can be taken as a spoiler, or a misdirection, or sometimes both. Here is an example, from way back the last thread, episode 2 first twilight, when we were discussing how someone could have swapped the chapel key in the envelop: qrr posted:I suppose we'll learn something like "battler stayed up all night watching [the envelope]" oath2order posted:Only some kinda lunatic would stay up all night, just in case a murder mystery got started. 3 episodes later:  Ahem. The point is, we've been playing this game with you for about 9 months now. And it's been pretty fun! We hold all the cards and cackle wildly at you, watching you struggle to come up with the best theories. But, you know, there's a downside too. When things get unpleasant like, frankly, they got this week, there is a temptation to swoop in and arbitrate arguments. However, it would be impossible to do that without the appearance of taking sides. And for us, the worst sin we can do is to try and influence your thinking towards the Truth. We cannot, and will not, tell you what Umineko is about. Even when it would make it easier for us. But I can tell you what it's not about. Umineko is not about winning an argument. That's really the whole point of Erika. Everyone has really strong opinions on what is or is not possible and we've seen a lot of arguing about the nature of the rules and most of it boils down to "I can't be wrong because if I'm wrong the game is unfair." This, to me, is an Erika viewpoint. The game challenges you to find the truth, but it never asks it of you, at least not yet. Really, the writer is trying to make a much simpler request: View the story with love. Love for the characters, who you presumably care about if you made it this far, and love for the writer, who you must trust (at least, until the end) to entertain you and play fairly. If you don't trust the writer, then what's the point of even reading? I guess my point is, don't get so worked up about arguing semantics and who is right and who must be wrong. This isn't a contest. It's a conversation. So be cool to each other, ok?
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Jun 18, 2017 17:53
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ZiegeDame posted:I'mma laugh if Battler just jumped out the window again in the hope that Erika would forget to check those seals. ZiegeDame posted:So are you saying that Shannon is the mastermind who plotted out the murders, and Kanon merely carried them out for her? Or that Kanon is acting without Shannon in a way that he believes will help her? How do you account for all the times Shannon ends up dead? The first one, with elements of the second when things go awry. In the first episode, her death was never properly confirmed. In the second, plans messed up. The third, the same answer used to keep Kanon alive. The fourth is her just committing suicide after Battler's failure of an answer. We know that solving the epitaph gives her no benefit. However, it's suggested that Shannon was part of their group when they went searching for the gold six years ago. Similarly, it's suggested that the promise is the last words Battler left behind when he left six years ago - "I'll be back, see you again", after which he didn't return. Not to mention the implied second part where he'd rescue Shannon from the island. Battler remembers none of this, and barely remembers Shannon.
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Jun 18, 2017 18:25
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ZiegeDame posted:Remember, Her goal [..] isn't to have revenge on someone. I've been thinking about this in the context of the love trial, for which one can conclude that all of the "murders" are symbolic, whether or not the victim has actually ended up physically dead. (More on that below.) What if that's true for everything we've seen so far? What if none of what we've seen to date reflects the way the Rokkenjima Incident will have "actually happened" by the time there's a clear victor to write the history? What if all of these murders that we've seen are purely symbolic, and in the end, none of the Ushiromiya family or their servants and friends actually ends up dead (except Kinzo, who already is)? What if this whole story is a metaphor for Beatrice confronting parts of herself that she sees reflected in all of these people, which she sees as holding her back in some way, and overcoming them within herself so that she can step forward into a new phase of her life? It's hard to imagine someone committing strings of bloody serial murders without seeking revenge, seeking to cause fear, or being clinically insane... unless the murders are metaphor, rather than physical fact. There had already been some discussion in the thread about the meaning of the six murders of the first twilight in this episode and the matching between murderer and murderee, but I don't think the discussion was ever comprehensively resolved. (I apologize if it was and I missed it.) So what's below is a combination of summary of what the thread has already discussed and some of my own thoughts. 6. Game Master Battler kills Piece Battler. This is the most straightforward. Battler abandons/"kills" his incompetent, literal-stupidest-man-on-earth self who couldn't understand what Beatrice was seeking from him. 1. George kills Eva. The second most straightforward, or even tied with Battler vs. Battler. As much as she may have been awful about it, Eva is George's mother and has been undeniably instrumental in raising him into the person he is now. But he can't move on and become his own person without "killing" that connection and committing to moving forward in life on his own. 2. Jessica kills Kyrie. Jessica and Kyrie have an extensive conversation about being driven by jealousy. Jessica has acknowledged that her feelings for Kanon are, at least initially, largely founded on her jealousy of other people's relationships rather than an explicit connection between herself and Kanon. If their relationship has any hope of growing into a healthy one, she has to reject jealousy as her primary motivating force ("kill" Kyrie, the personification of jealousy as a motivating force) and find a new, more stable foundation for their love. Now it gets harder because there's less to work with. If I take the three instances above as sufficient evidence that it's sensible to try to seek a similar meaning in the remaining three, though, this is where I end up: 4. Shannon kills Maria. No big long conversation here, so all we really have to go on is what we already know of the characters. For Maria (actually, MARIA here), her strongest defining characteristic is that she clings to witchcraft and the occult to create a view of the world around her that won't crush her with misery. Shannon, similarly, has been shown to rely on Beatrice's magic to support her hope of becoming "human" (i.e., just enough self-delusion about the possible consequences to give her the courage to pursue her relationship with George), but now that that's within her grasp, she needs to abandon that crutch and, like George, move forward under her own power, seeing her life with clear eyes. 3. Kanon kills Rosa. Similar to the Jessica vs. Kyrie scene, we get an extensive conversation elaborating on Rosa's feelings concerning events we already knew about, in this case, the circumstances of Maria's father leaving. She took pride in her self-sacrifice at letting him go, which she now regrets, but she still can't give up on the possibility of getting him back (which, by the way, also seems to provide a little more context for why she seems to keep sabotaging her potential relationships with new men, for which she then turns around and blames Maria --- as a surrogate for her father, maybe?). Perhaps, then, Kanon has a similar event in his past that has been haunting him, but unlike Rosa, he wants to be able to let go of it and move forward to seek a future with Jessica. Battler's sin/departure? Seems consistent with the idea that Kanon was the one with whom Battler broke a promise. 5. Chick Beatrice kills Natsuhi. This one is hardest for me to get a grasp on, largely because we still don't know for sure who Beatrice is. There's also a thick layer of metaphor here, and it seems to have something to do with the difference in significance of the spiderwebs vs. the spirit mirror. The spirit mirror is from Natsuhi's family and thus from her past as a scion of Shinto priests; the spiderwebs are from the legends of Rokkenjima specifically. One thing we know about Natsuhi is that she initially came into the Ushiromiya family unwillingly, but she eventually threw away her previous self to seek what fulfillment she could find in her new, unasked-for life (kind of the exact opposite of Rosa, in a way), which then eventually became a point of enormous pride for her, more so than for any blood family member. The spirit mirror vs. spiderwebs thing seems to suggest that what threatens Beato about Natsuhi is who Natsuhi once was, rather than who she is now... but that's as far as I can get.
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Jun 18, 2017 18:46
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Yeah, hmm. If the room's retroactively sealed up (great job allowing that one, genius)... then yeah, he must have jumped out another window. Other than that, this-idonotlikepeas posted:It's still not that hard to get him out with a variation on that, though. He'd just have to change places with someone outside - since I suspect that the story is going to want to keep the other two rooms sealed, it would be likely to be one of the people that appeared to be dead before. That person can put the chain back on and hide somewhere in the room without creating a contradiction while Battler strolls off somewhere else. (And since Erika isn't the detective, they can potentially keep hiding in different places in the room without getting caught by her.) -would seem to be the most parsimonious answer. Erika sealed up the rooms with all the known survivors, other than Battler's murder room, and as she hasn't examined the corpses, yeah, they all might still be alive, and anyone (though probably not maria, as she's too little) could have potentially let Battler out while Erika had Fun Times In The Bathroom.
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Jun 18, 2017 21:25
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idonotlikepeas posted:
That depends on whether the duct tape sealed chain works like the duct tape does (once broken, remains broken) or works like a normal door chain. I guess that based on the person trapped in the room we can assume that it works like a normal door chain, so yeah, this makes a lot of sense as a solution. What it doesn't make sense as is something anyone would actually do when committing a weird murder, since without red text it doesn't gain them anything - if Erika were to find someone hiding in the room who wasn't Battler, that would be, if anything, more suspicious. But the murderer and collaborator's reasons for doing things have always been kind of off, so that's probably ok. Battler continues to double down every time instead of accepting a temporary loss for later gain. Hey Battler, remember when you put forth theories and Beatrice said "oh, guess I won't counter this one with red", and then she either countered it with red later or crushed you anyway? Sure, if you lose this one Erika gets a powerful tool, but maybe then you shouldn't have made the first mystery of your story one that you could not afford to lose.
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Jun 18, 2017 21:37
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Jun 18, 2017 22:14
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So Battler does not exist in the room because a giant were-mackerel ate him? It's a tragic way to go.
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Jun 18, 2017 22:33
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Van Dine posted:So Battler does not exist in the room because a giant were-mackerel ate him? It's a tragic way to go. I mean, there's no objective viewpoint so sure, piece erika could miss a giant mackerel.
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Jun 18, 2017 22:52
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Jun 18, 2017 23:10
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Another important thing to consider is that whatever his move is, Battler still loses in this room. We've kind of been shown that already. So if I got it right, what in the hell is Erika going to say next to counter it?
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Jun 18, 2017 23:37
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Kumasawa, nooooooooooooo!  fakeedit: I'ss ooka y. xThis is how Kum..asawa would have W;ANTED too ..gao o.ut :'((( , yyami o,,w k..irisaku as a tasty ma.ckerel dish thatt everyone c..can finnally enjoY.; O h desiree. TT__TT Pleasew njoy this de,,licious mmaacckerel, ,an.d rremmemmberr the mmo,st wonderful f..ish grandma bPe,,ace. ;___; let uus k,now ifn it was delicious
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Jun 18, 2017 23:41
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