SUK ZONE: it's all a pointless exercise and you're just screaming into the void

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > SUK ZONE: it's all a pointless exercise and you're just screaming into the void

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Mister Fister: May 17, 2008; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
KILL-GORE

I love the smell of dead Palestinians in the morning.
You know, one time we had Gaza bombed for 26 days
(and counting!)

SKULL.GIF posted:

capitalists correctly recognize they actually need a customer/servant base that isn't dying in poverty for them to continue to be rich

I just don't trust them to push that hard for those policies, OTOH, it might be the only way, like some sort of 'only nixon could go to china' moment.

# ? Jun 17, 2017 19:15

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# ? May 25, 2024 21:14

Grondoth: Feb 18, 2011

Is Trucking Deregulation what allowed trucking companies to make all their workers independent contractors who have to pay for their trucks and get no benefits?

Cause if that's the case, that's... another thing that can be laid at our feet. Carter did that.

# ? Jun 17, 2017 19:18

fits my needs: Jan 1, 2011; Grimey Drawer

https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/876142263058944001

# ? Jun 17, 2017 19:21

docbeard: Jul 19, 2011

Man, just do not name ships "Fitzgerald"

# ? Jun 17, 2017 19:23

Al!: Apr 2, 2010

Mister Fister posted:

I just don't trust them to push that hard for those policies, OTOH, it might be the only way, like some sort of 'only nixon could go to china' moment.

stick anything they give you into your pocket and stick your hand right back out, if they swat it for your ingratitude slap them in the face

# ? Jun 17, 2017 19:24

Lemming: Apr 21, 2008

Oh Snapple! posted:

why would you expend any effort beyond a lazy vote for a little piece of poo poo like ossoff

Democrats are spineless cowards and if we get a win in an unlikely district they're more likely to slink out of their holes

# ? Jun 17, 2017 19:41

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPTUqy1utdM

# ? Jun 17, 2017 20:41

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

docbeard posted:

Man, just do not name ships "Fitzgerald"

where else are we supposed to get our marine based folk songs

# ? Jun 17, 2017 20:43

Ace of Baes: Jul 7, 1977

The sexy blogger has logged on.

# ? Jun 17, 2017 21:52

Venuz Patrol: Mar 27, 2011

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/876125397133537284

quote:

One Democratic source cautioned that the caucus may not go that far given the bipartisan atmosphere following the shooting at a congressional baseball practice Wednesday.

But other Democrats said they wanted to escalate the fight to give more prominence to the GOP's closed-door process of drafting health care legislation, which Republican leaders want to pass by month's end.

it's that time again. time to pick which anonymous sources you attribute the attitude of the entire democratic party and all its voters to

# ? Jun 17, 2017 21:55

PostNouveau: Sep 3, 2011; VY till I die; Grimey Drawer

Oh gee guys, I don't know if the GOP trying to throw tens of millions of people off their health insurance is worth breaking decorum. :ohdear:

# ? Jun 17, 2017 22:08

got any sevens: Feb 9, 2013; by Cyrano4747

Ace of Baes posted:

The sexy blogger has logged on.

nice

# ? Jun 17, 2017 22:21

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Subjunctivitis posted:

Has there been any good amount of high quality research/hypothesizing on this? I'd be genuinely interested in reading serious material what caused leftist apathy/political abandonment.

I expect it's complex and multi-faceted, involving a bunch of historical points like MLK's assassination, Vietnam, McGovern's defeat, Reagan/Second Cold War/Baby Boomer economy, Clinton/Tech Bubble/GenX economy, but is there a well-developed thesis about the interweaving of these (and/or probably other) things to drive leftist out leftist participation? Or do I just need to read Chomsky?

I imagine there's been tons written about it, but I don't know of any specifically high-quality stuff.

AstheWorldWorlds posted:

And yet union enrollment numbers and all around leftist organization enrollment are significantly lower and the power of capital is significantly more entrenched than previously, while operating basically virtually unopposed. The state and capitalist class use soft power now in part because they are restrained from the minor victories achieved but also because they don't have to use hard power most of the time as there is effectively zero meaningful resistance. Should they feel threatened I absolutely guarantee hard power will make a swift come back.

Your argument doesn't make a terrible amount of sense, to be honest. You are describing existing conditions, not the degree of organization and mobilization (strength). The left is indeed significantly weaker in real terms than in the past.

What is your explanation for why the left vanished?

There's a lot of things that hurt and weakened the left in the years leading up to the post-war decline, but if I had to pick the most important, it'd probably be:

Working conditions, wages, and general prosperity had improved tremendously compared to when the labor movement had started. Workers - especially the blue collar white workers that were traditionally allowed to be the backbone of the labor movement - were in a relatively good position in the 50s, so the grassroots weakened. There just wasn't as much anger and drive as there had been before. Sure, they were still bound to work for wages and exist at the pleasure of employers, but the anger that fueled the early labor movement was from so much more than just that.
The major union movements pushed toward centralization, particularly in the interwar period and onward - and as a result, they drifted away from the workers. With a small leadership cadre leeching away more and more power from the grassroots, they fell out of touch with the interests of their membership, causing them to become less adaptable and more risk-averse. As the years passed, this only became self-reinforcing, with each generation of union leaders being more out of touch than the last, leading to union leaders being career bureaucrats and lawyers who've never been blue-collar in their lives. The current president of the AFL-CIO, for example, calls himself a "former coal miner" - but to him, the mines were never anything more than a part-time job he'd go work in the summer during the break between college semesters. As a result of this, the big unions have gotten much more focused on electoral politics and compromises, and are less interested in direct action and real gains.
The decline of the immigrant role in labor, and in international socialism. At the turn of the 20th century, many radical leftist thought leaders were European immigrants who'd brought the latest socialist ideas with them from overseas, there were plenty of poor (white) immigrants involved on the ground in the labor movements, and the Russian Revolution seemed to be a beacon to the rest of the world saying that socialism was possible, that capitalism could be defeated. As Europe turned to social democracy to defang the socialists, that weakened the leftist solidarity coming from overseas, and the Soviet Union posed problems as well; the excesses of Stalinism disillusioned many American socialists, and the US Communist Party became dependent on Soviet funding and ideological guidance
The relationship between labor leftists and political leftists was troubled and tended to lack in solidarity. The unions' relationship with the Socialist and Communist parties had long been shaky, and the new wave of leftism that rose in the 60s and 70s largely spurned labor. Being a product of students with no memory of any time before the prosperity of the 50s, they tended to focus on the biggest problems facing middle-class white youth: the fear that the Cold War might end the world, the fear that their number might get pulled in the Vietnam draft, and the feeling that America (the Greatest Nation in the World for as long as they could remember) should be above the unattractive and often brutal civil rights battles happening on their TVs. In other words, they largely abandoned economic issues and class inequality in order to focus on social issues instead. The Port Huron Statement sums it up pretty well - the one paragraph that talks about labor or the economy in any detail sounds like something out of a "here's what these wacky lazy millenials think about work" article, and it asserts that the core of the leftist movement should be the universities rather than the workers. Most of the rest is just complaining about society's lack of values,
The fact that these aging leftist bureaucracies and new leftist movements, both of which emphasized nonviolent electoral action, chose to willingly be absorbed into the Democratic Party, giving up their independent identity and seeking to become part of an established party and push it to the left.

# ? Jun 17, 2017 22:21

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Subjunctivitis posted:

Has there been any good amount of high quality research/hypothesizing on this? I'd be genuinely interested in reading serious material what caused leftist apathy/political abandonment.

I expect it's complex and multi-faceted, involving a bunch of historical points like MLK's assassination, Vietnam, McGovern's defeat, Reagan/Second Cold War/Baby Boomer economy, Clinton/Tech Bubble/GenX economy, but is there a well-developed thesis about the interweaving of these (and/or probably other) things to drive leftist out leftist participation? Or do I just need to read Chomsky?

I feel that another reason is that as the first world developed and absolute poverty became less common, "First World Guilt" became more common and less people saw a strong reason to support left wing ideals

# ? Jun 17, 2017 22:23

Horseshoe theory: Mar 7, 2005

PostNouveau posted:

Oh gee guys, I don't know if the GOP trying to throw tens of millions of people off their health insurance is worth breaking decorum.

Politics is one big tone argument.

# ? Jun 17, 2017 22:53

ThndrShk2k: Nov 3, 2009; by Nyc_Tattoo; Bread Liar

Ace of Baes posted:

The sexy blogger has logged on.

# ? Jun 17, 2017 22:57

Al!: Apr 2, 2010

PostNouveau posted:

Oh gee guys, I don't know if the GOP trying to throw tens of millions of people off their health insurance is worth breaking decorum.

its ok im sure the republicans would do the sahahahahah jk the president would openly mock the guy that got shot and the republicans would accuse the democrats of capitalizing on a tragedy

# ? Jun 17, 2017 23:05

The Ol Spicy Keychain: Jan 17, 2013; I MEPHISTO MY OWN ASSHOLE

https://twitter.com/madinatoure/status/876166592782118912

a good dem

# ? Jun 17, 2017 23:10

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Scent of Worf posted:

https://twitter.com/madinatoure/status/876166592782118912

a good dem

# ? Jun 17, 2017 23:26

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

Ace of Baes posted:

https://twitter.com/LanaDelRaytheon/status/875972012589449216

what this man desperately needs is a new categorization for his employment in this new gig economy

*gilbert gottfried voice* THE DEMOCRATS!

# ? Jun 17, 2017 23:32

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006

Ace of Baes posted:

https://twitter.com/LanaDelRaytheon/status/875972012589449216

what this man desperately needs is higher mandate penalties on his taxes for not having health insurance

*gilbert gottfried voice* THE DEMOCRATS!

# ? Jun 17, 2017 23:44

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

I think another important thing to remeber about the decline of labor inn America is the ALF-CIO tossing out all of it's old communist and socialist members, you know the grassroots guys that cut they're teeth (literally) during the depression. George Meney killed labor's power

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:12

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

KomradeX posted:

I think another important thing to remeber about the decline of labor inn America is the ALF-CIO tossing out all of it's old communist and socialist members, you know the grassroots guys that cut they're teeth (literally) during the depression. George Meney killed labor's power

it's almost like cutting a deal with bad dems hosed them in the long run.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:13

GalacticAcid: Apr 8, 2013; NEW YORK VALUES

Scent of Worf posted:

https://twitter.com/madinatoure/status/876166592782118912

a good dem

He is good, I was there.

But he is running on the Green Party line with DSA's endorsement, so he's a good not-dem.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:16

Concerned Citizen: Jul 22, 2007; Ramrod XTreme

https://twitter.com/JMilesColeman/status/876216216083476480

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:23

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Concerned Citizen posted:

https://twitter.com/JMilesColeman/status/876216216083476480

why do they elect manchin over a republican anyway

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:30

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

etalian posted:

it's almost like cutting a deal with bad dems hosed them in the long run.

Even in the early years a bunch of the organizers thought that alligining with any of party in the long run would gently caress them. Those people obviously lost

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:30

Venuz Patrol: Mar 27, 2011

Raskolnikov38 posted:

why do they elect manchin over a republican anyway

standing up to the democratic leadership gives him a lot more publicity than a republican doing the same thing would get

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:33

Concerned Citizen: Jul 22, 2007; Ramrod XTreme

Raskolnikov38 posted:

why do they elect manchin over a republican anyway

it's not the democratic party in wva, it's the manchin party

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:34

PostNouveau: Sep 3, 2011; VY till I die; Grimey Drawer

Raskolnikov38 posted:

why do they elect manchin over a republican anyway

He is a centrist.

Now I'mma say something here, brace yourselves:

It's better to have a centrist Democrat in that seat than a Republican.

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:36

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

PostNouveau posted:

He is a centrist.

Now I'mma say something here, brace yourselves:

It's better to have a centrist Democrat in that seat than a Republican.

i'm more curious about the wants of the WV electorate as they seem contradictory and counter intuitive

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:38

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

KomradeX posted:

Even in the early years a bunch of the organizers thought that alligining with any of party in the long run would gently caress them. Those people obviously lost

Didn't unions side with Reagan?

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:41

GalacticAcid: Apr 8, 2013; NEW YORK VALUES

punk rebel ecks posted:

Didn't unions side with Reagan?

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:43

Concerned Citizen: Jul 22, 2007; Ramrod XTreme

some unions did back reagan

for example, the air traffic controllers endorsed him in 1980. then he busted their union

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:44

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

punk rebel ecks posted:

Didn't unions side with Reagan?

Only the Air Traffic Controllers Union. And that was over 50 years after the debate of unions hitching themselves to the Democrats was a good idea or not

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:45

Concerned Citizen: Jul 22, 2007; Ramrod XTreme

the teamsters also endorsed reagan twice

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:46

Normie Chomsky: Apr 10, 2008

Concerned Citizen posted:

some unions did back reagan

for example, the air traffic controllers endorsed him in 1980. then he busted their union

cucked up if true

(which it is)

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:47

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

Concerned Citizen posted:

the teamsters also endorsed reagan twice

That was under Jimmy Hoffa Jr wasn't it?

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:48

got any sevens: Feb 9, 2013; by Cyrano4747

PostNouveau posted:

He is a centrist.

Now I'mma say something here, brace yourselves:

It's better to have a centrist Democrat in that seat than a Republican.

*citation needed

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:49

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# ? May 25, 2024 21:14

Venom Snake: Feb 19, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Raskolnikov38 posted:

i'm more curious about the wants of the WV electorate as they seem contradictory and counter intuitive

Identity politics makes or break you in states like WV and Manchin is the WV democratic party. Remember this dude is besties with loving Jeff Sessions

# ? Jun 18, 2017 00:49

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > SUK ZONE: it's all a pointless exercise and you're just screaming into the void

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