|
meanwhile, when exorcists go bad http://www.thedailybeast.com/this-secret-catholic-exorcist-cult-in-brazil-is-making-a-deal-with-the-devil?via=twitter_page
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 19:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 10:54 |
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:i take it all back, aesthetic taste can definitely be evil
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 19:20
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Your sense of aesthetics should be subservient to your sense of morality, and if it isn't I don't think you have sufficient control over either. I can't imagine trying to subordinate aesthetics to morality any more than subordinating morality to aesthetics. I find it nauseating to see someone happily letting a dog lick their face, but I don't find that immoral, or even dislike-able, it just turns my stomach. I think it is immoral to remarry after a divorce, but I don't feel revulsion at the sight of a happily-remarried person with their second spouse. Watching someone put lotion on their hands makes me shudder, but watching someone pick their teeth doesn't, even though the latter's less socially acceptable. Hearing an adult tell a child, "You're so stupid - how could you be so stupid?" gives me the same aesthetic reaction as watching someone pick their teeth, even though I think it's wrong to talk to a child that way.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 19:32
|
|
|
zonohedron posted:I can't imagine trying to subordinate aesthetics to morality... quote:... any more than subordinating morality to aesthetics.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 19:41
|
|
|
Kinda, sorta, not really related to the current discussion: One in six young people are Christian as visits to church buildings inspire them to convert quote:Around 13 per cent of teenagers said that they decided to become a Christian after a visit to a church or cathedral, according to the figures. Turns out that aesthetics in religion... are good? 
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 21:09
|
|
|
zonohedron posted:I can't imagine trying to subordinate aesthetics to morality any more than subordinating morality to aesthetics. I find it nauseating to see someone happily letting a dog lick their face, but I don't find that immoral, or even dislike-able, it just turns my stomach. I think it is immoral to remarry after a divorce, but I don't feel revulsion at the sight of a happily-remarried person with their second spouse. Watching someone put lotion on their hands makes me shudder, but watching someone pick their teeth doesn't, even though the latter's less socially acceptable. Hearing an adult tell a child, "You're so stupid - how could you be so stupid?" gives me the same aesthetic reaction as watching someone pick their teeth, even though I think it's wrong to talk to a child that way. wait you don't get all stomach churning, anxiety sweat reaction when you hear a parent saying stuff like that to their kid? huh, what's with me then System Metternich posted:Kinda, sorta, not really related to the current discussion:
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 21:14
|
|
|
Senju Kannon posted:i mean to be fair how many converts do they think an old dude going "yo yo yo jesus is good" is gonna get? like from what i've heard (i was never in a youth group so it's second hand for me) youth groups rarely actually treated kids seriously, instead they just made condescending overtures to them based off what they expected kids to care about. so like, of course buildings are more effective, sacred architecture takes kids more seriously than a lot of people in youth ministry Basically songs and stories for children tend to be made by adults who have certain views about what being a child is like. Meanwhile, children tend to want in on the adult stuff, and are sensitive to being patronised. I know that I as a child was certainly more impressed by the gold-clad skeletons in some churches than by the "on a boat with Jesus" hand-print collage we made to hang in ours. That said, some of the youth group activities were pretty great and have left me with good memories. And among people I know it's a reasonably common experience that they were either attracted to the church because of youth activities, or stuck around because of them. I think the stew they served at one altar servers' meeting also set me on the path to becoming a vegetarian. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 21:26
|
|
|
The architecture thing rings very true to me. One of my strongest childhood memories is visiting the Aachener Dom. One of the few times I felt true awe in my life. Unfortunately for christianity, most of that feeling went into an overwhelming urge to restore the Empire, not a conversion.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 21:42
|
|
|
I was an odd kid in that I always preferred churches with more austere architecture growing up. Visiting big cathedrals and whatnot as a kid just made me think "Man, that's tacky."
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 21:46
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:I was an odd kid in that I always preferred churches with more austere architecture growing up. Visiting big cathedrals and whatnot as a kid just made me think "Man, that's tacky."
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 21:48
|
|
|
Sometimes I wonder if maybe The Simpsons was on to something in that episode where Bart is attracted to Catholicism by the gruesome martyrdom stories. "And in art class, we painted St. Joan burning at the stake, and mine was the grossest!"
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 22:04
|
|
|
Keromaru5 posted:Sometimes I wonder if maybe The Simpsons was on to something in that episode where Bart is attracted to Catholicism by the gruesome martyrdom stories. 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jun 18, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 22:10
|
|
|
HEY GAIL posted:you can't be catholic without PILES of kitsch Fortunately, I am not Catholic and have no desire to be.  Honestly, I think the Amish and Mennonites and other such groups are kind on to something. It's not a lifestyle I have any interest in embracing, I'm far too attached to the modern world, but I appreciate that impulse towards staying humble and plain, particularly in regards to church. I've always thought the most beautiful churches are often the simplest, even bordering on stark or brutal in appearance.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 22:12
|
|
|
HEY GAIL posted:meanwhile, when exorcists go bad This is great. The best is this: quote:The conversation was stilted, as one might expect with the struggle for the possessed person’s soul, but the gist was that Plinio was randomly “breaking people's computers so that they can’t go on the internet” and that he is changing the climate and was “therefore the author of the climate change, and the increase of heat. It is Plinio who does everything,” according to the devil as channeled through the exorcist. Then, the devil predicts that a meteorite will crash into the Atlantic ocean. “North America will disappear,” he warns. Climate change, continental destruction, yeah sure... wait, the demons are after my wifi connection? In Jesus' name, back!
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 23:22
|
|
|
that is some alex jones poo poo in the best possible way
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2017 23:38
|
|
|
HEY GAIL posted:if this, then terrible art with a good message is good It is, though? Beauty cannot redeem vile things, but good things remain good whether they look nice or not.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 01:09
|
|
|
Hey guys, you know why fundamentalists can't read music? It's just a theory.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 01:27
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:It is, though? For reference, here is an example. This is good hip-hop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOgApjGFmnU While this is awful hip-hop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvqYabGI6HQ Numerical Anxiety fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Jun 19, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 02:16
|
|
|
Thirteen Orphans posted:Hey guys, you know why fundamentalists can't read music? It's the only thing that explains how awful the music's been in fundy churches I've been to.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 02:17
|
|
|
Numerical Anxiety posted:For reference, here is an example. Both equally listenable but both strictly inferior to the best hip hop adjacent thing marrying both form and message: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNqlSrhUOgs
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 02:30
|
|
|
hi it's corpus christi and im drunk as hell it's alternately really cool and kinda hosed up taht we literally cannibalize God and it owns
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 06:56
|
|
|
Numerical Anxiety posted:Help, I'm being oppressed! Someone else has an aversion to a thing I like and dared articulate it! If you can't defend why you don't like something, even if it is a thing with legitimate reasons to dislike, you are being slightly foolish.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 06:59
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:If you can't defend why you don't like something, even if it is a thing with legitimate reasons to dislike, you are being slightly foolish. "my lover is beautiful" "actually I think you'll find that other men and indeed women are in fact also beautiful, and furthermore you should only make aesthetic judgements insofar as they relate to universal law and moral truth" - some atheists in this thread, bafflingly
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 07:21
|
|
|
pidan posted:"my lover is beautiful" Where did I say this or anything close to it? If it was implied I apologise, but if you are asked "Why don't you like [thing]" and you can't provide an answer then it does look fairly silly.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 08:12
|
|
|
HEY GAIL posted:meanwhile, when exorcists go bad quote:Dr. Plinio, as he is still known by his devout followers, was a right-wing Catholic figure who founded the ultra conservative Tradition, Family and Property Association, known in Catholic circles as the TFP. Well of course
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 09:33
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:It is, though?
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 12:13
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:If you can't defend why you don't like something, even if it is a thing with legitimate reasons to dislike, you are being slightly foolish. I don't know about you, but as far as I am concerned "I don't like the taste of sweet potatoes," or "I don't see any appeal in water sports," are reasons legitimate enough in themselves for an individual not to partake of either.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 15:00
|
|
|
it is annoying when i cook something and someone says "i don't like it" and they can't articulate what exactly about it they don't like, because that means i can't avoid recreating the same thing they don't like about it again
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 15:28
|
|
|
Folks, whatever value this conversation had has clearly ended. Let's drop it now, okay?
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 15:29
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:Folks, whatever value this conversation had has clearly ended. Let's drop it now, okay? 
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 15:36
|
|
|
Senju Kannon posted:it is annoying when i cook something and someone says "i don't like it" and they can't articulate what exactly about it they don't like, because that means i can't avoid recreating the same thing they don't like about it again Sometimes, you just don't have the tools to describe what's wrong with things like cooking. For example, I'm terrible at it and I avoid it whenever I can, so criticism is limited "too salty/not enough salt" and stuff like that. W/R/T to awesome churches: school going children quickly turn against the friendly hippie stuff because they see it as something aimed at children, and they're not children. They want the good (read: gruesome) stuff. That's the idea behind Horrrible History books, and it made me in part the man I am today.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 15:45
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:Fortunately, I am not Catholic and have no desire to be. Oh hey, the Mennonite Signal* just went off. I can't really speak for anyone other than the (pretty modern, so no shunning of technology or anything like that) Mennonite church I grew up as part of, which wasn't that different from other Protestant churches, but in my experience, you can't really eliminate aesthetic expression like that, you can just redirect it. (So you can have a plain building but if there's any outlet for decoration, those decorations will be super-elaborate.) And from what I hear about some of the Amish communities around where I grew up and where friends of mine did, it's even more of an exercise in finding loopholes in The Things We Reject. Mostly it's a question of what the local bishop will allow, as I understand it, and it's not exactly consistent. Mobile phones being allowed, because they didn't involve wires being attached to the home (and sometimes only if they were kept in a location away from the home) was a pretty common thing you heard. My cousin made pretty good money while he was in high school driving Amish people around, in a van he nicknamed the Yoder Toter. Anyway, not to make My People out to be a bunch of hypocrites (though of course we are because we're, you know, people), but going back to the thing about aesthetics, I think that Mennonites (and others with more austere traditions) typically see some things as distractions from worship and it's hard for us to embrace the idea that, for others, those things aren't distracting at all. (And I'm sure it goes the other way as well.) Ultimately, I think there's beauty to be found in simplicity, and also in the elaborate, and beauty in all its forms is a gift from God. ___ It's this entire thing with weather vanes and quilts and...it's kind of hard to explain, honestly.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 16:04
|
|
|
docbeard posted:I think that Mennonites (and others with more austere traditions) typically see some things as distractions from worship and it's hard for us to embrace the idea that, for others, those things aren't distracting at all.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 16:08
|
|
|
Also, my mom helped out with cleaning our church while I was growing up, which meant that my sister and I did as well, and trust me, ain't nothing strips away what little mystique a place of worship might otherwise have like cleaning its bathrooms does.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 16:10
|
|
|
HEY GAIL posted:meanwhile, when exorcists go bad Note that these guys have some capital a AESTHETICS for this thread http://www.heraldsusa.org/habits-uniforms-and-symbols
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2017 17:23
|
|
|
Keromaru5 posted:Sometimes I wonder if maybe The Simpsons was on to something in that episode where Bart is attracted to Catholicism by the gruesome martyrdom stories. Puritans were all over this poo poo. The Stories Of Boys And Girls Who Loved Their Saviour was insanely popular and is basically about children who were really devout and then died. A very happy and joyous children's book about dying children, it was popular up until the 19th century when I guess kids decided they would rather read Heidi and The Jungle Book rather than develop PTSD. The Martyrs of Carthage was also pretty popular; it's a delightful novelization of early church history, where people convert due to their convictions and die horrifyingly gruesome deaths by being boiled in oil or decapitated. It was recommended reading for young girls. I'm only familiar with old Puritan children's literature, not any Catholic stuff, but I'd say the biggest difference between older catechesis and modern catechesis is that holy poo poo the older stuff did not pull any punches. Greenham's Youth Catechism opens up right away with total depravity. YouCat is like "God is really awesome, guys! Also please don't masturbate" and 17th century Puritan youth catechisms are like "look at you, wretched creature of sinew born of sin, repent or face eternal hellfire."
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 05:00
|
|
|
The Phlegmatist posted:Puritans were all over this poo poo. The Stories Of Boys And Girls Who Loved Their Saviour was insanely popular and is basically about children who were really devout and then died. A very happy and joyous children's book about dying children, it was popular up until the 19th century when I guess kids decided they would rather read Heidi and The Jungle Book rather than develop PTSD. Well, it didn't quite go away. See The Last Battle. Although I still generally recommend The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe and Voyage of the Dawn Treader for kids.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 05:04
|
|
|
The Phlegmatist posted:I'm only familiar with old Puritan children's literature, not any Catholic stuff, but I'd say the biggest difference between older catechesis and modern catechesis is that holy poo poo the older stuff did not pull any punches. Greenham's Youth Catechism opens up right away with total depravity. YouCat is like "God is really awesome, guys! Also please don't masturbate" and 17th century Puritan youth catechisms are like "look at you, wretched creature of sinew born of sin, repent or face eternal hellfire." i assume the orthodox ones are the same way
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 10:57
|
|
|
In that vein, check out Martyr's Mirror sometime, especially the woodcut illustrations (which are the source of my avatar).
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 12:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 10:54 |
|
|
HEY GAIL posted:catholic early childhood education is still bloody as hell and i loved it
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2017 13:26
|
|