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azren posted:
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Jun 16, 2017 10:16
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Dr Pepper posted:It's not really the case in Final Fantasy games. Most bosses have some vulnerability to status effects that is very useful. Hence why I said SNES games and onward. The original Final Fantasy was surprisingly hard compared to later Final Fantasies (Fantasys?) where throwing out status spells on random encounters was encouraged, and Tiamat had a weakness to the Bane spell that I always see recommended to use over fighting her fairly.
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Jun 16, 2017 10:33
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BioEnchanted posted:Yeah, I've noticed that Megaten games do have early spikes, then the chill out for a bit afterwards. Shadow Yukiko in Persona 4 was really hard, and she's only the third dungeon, and the first complete one. Says something in Golden they actually reduced Shadow Yukiko's difficulty by giving her a weakness to ice, taking away a few buff/debuff spells (Matarunda and Mind Charge are kind of nuts for how early in the game she has it) and gives a warning for Burn to Ashes, but in turn they bump up her HP.
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Jun 16, 2017 16:02
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Dr Pepper posted:It's not really the case in Final Fantasy games. Most bosses have some vulnerability to status effects that is very useful. Also usually the hit rates are atrocious. Take for example Garland in FF9. He's open to Silence which will prevent Flare and Stop. Dagger at level 40 with 40 magic has a ~35% chance of hitting him with Silence. With the same stats a 99-aquamarine Leviathan with a water boost will deal over 6,000 with the short animation and probably hit the damage cap with the long one. Status vulnerability is almost seemingly random, too. Silver Dragon is open to sleep, but Garland and Kuja are not. Kuja is immune to silence entirely. Taharka is vulnerable to Heat when nearly no other boss is.
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Jun 16, 2017 19:29
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Also usually the hit rates are atrocious. pretty much - with the exception of MP-draining, and bio/poison, status moves in FF just do not hit consistently enough to make it worth the attempt when you can blow the Boss' HP down by 20% or more in the same turn. Granted, Kuja's immunity to silence makes sense from a gameplay standpoint - he's a Mage, if you shut down his ability to cast spells, you essentially completely nullified him as a threat until you either beat him, or he hits his 'I cast Flare Star and win this fight' cap depending on what point of the game you're fighting him.
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Jun 16, 2017 19:53
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Also usually the hit rates are atrocious. Adding onto the vulnerability thing, it doesn't help that most RPGs don't differentiate between "miss" and "completely ineffective, stop trying" for their status spells. So you never know if you should keep rolling the dice, or give up and just dump buckets of damage on their head.
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Jun 16, 2017 20:13
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It really depends on the game. From what I recall in FFX-2 they're very useful once you figure out which ones stick to which enemies, and in FFV they absolutely wreck various bosses, though in that game there's enough ways to absolutely wreck bosses that it really only matters in Four-Job Fiesta runs.
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Jun 16, 2017 20:17
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BioEnchanted posted:Yeah, I've noticed that Megaten games do have early spikes, then the chill out for a bit afterwards. Shadow Yukiko in Persona 4 was really hard, and she's only the third dungeon, and the first complete one. Rainuwastaken posted:Adding onto the vulnerability thing, it doesn't help that most RPGs don't differentiate between "miss" and "completely ineffective, stop trying" for their status spells. So you never know if you should keep rolling the dice, or give up and just dump buckets of damage on their head.
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Jun 16, 2017 21:00
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anilEhilated posted:To be fair "Furnazi" is kinda clever as a pun, it's just tasteless as gently caress. Anyone ever LP'd that thing? I can't imagine what the story is about if this is where they went with their fakemons. I can't either. Especially since there's three sets of starters in the game.
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Jun 16, 2017 22:08
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So I see they've changed the available pokemon in Reborn yet again. I've played this (not through to completion mind)... maybe twice at this point? For whatever reason the development team continues to see fit to go back and change out available pokemon, generally replacing them with worse versions. As noted earlier in the thread, the Espurr was initially a Ralts, then a Gothita. I'm kinda surprised they switched from Gothita since, at least in my opinion, it isn't great compared to Espurr. For the Bibarel trade I recall getting Litleo for it, which isn't all that great since its a special attacker that learns no special moves until way later. It's kind of a theme with Reborn giving you pokemon in the early game that only get going at Lv. 40+. The other thing I distinctly remember is Blitzle being an Electrike previously. Same concept (nullify electric abilities) but Blitzle is probably more useful overall honestly. I'm pretty sure the pokemon being bullied on the bridge used to be that water monkey one time? I could be mis-remembering. One thing I do remember the game doing is openly pointing out how there were no available ground or ghost type pokemon available before the first gym. I'm fairly certain some NPC points out how Julia would be countered hard by those types but whoooops there aren't any available at that point in the game. One pokemon that's very useful for the beginning of the game that Bydoless hasn't touched on is... Trubbish! The little guy gets Toxic Spikes of all things at level 7 and Acid Spray (guaranteed -2 special defense stages) at level 12. Two layers of toxic spikes will automatically toxic any ground-touching pokemon when they come onto the field while Acid Spray is an excellent softener for follow-up pokemon to take advantage of. Later fights do have counters to toxic spikes but Julia can't really do anything about it so its a solid option for her. Terrain is fine in concept but awful in practice. It's meant to give opponents buffs and/or actively harm you since the devs can't be bothered to do anything resembling AI for trainers. The main problem is that it is very difficult to alter terrain; its largely only obscure (like mud sport or the pledge moves) or late game, high end moves that have the power to change the field. The first time I recall being able to change the terrain for my benefit was the fourth gym. Of course, with there being so many terrains, often only used for a single scene/series of fights, it can be difficult to really plan ahead and get a pokemon battle ready that can change whatever field you're headed into. Edit: And there was the time the devs put in awful terrain that would OHKO you and a common random pokemon encounter that could trigger that effect that you can't run away from! Now that's hard mode!
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Jun 16, 2017 22:39
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Bruceski posted:It really depends on the game. From what I recall in FFX-2 they're very useful once you figure out which ones stick to which enemies, and in FFV they absolutely wreck various bosses, though in that game there's enough ways to absolutely wreck bosses that it really only matters in Four-Job Fiesta runs. One of the reasons that FFX-2 has good status effects though is the Songstress Dressphere, a Job whose primary feature is that it inflicts status ailments pretty much 100% of the time if the enemy is vulnerable to it. FF10 and 10-2 also go the extra mile to differentiate "Miss" from "Immune" which is extremely useful. As for FF5 you got it in one, in general people don't go fishing for status effects on bosses besides from Blue Magic unless they're on a Fiesta and have to start poring over game information to invent some way to beat a beat that would otherwise stomp them.
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Jun 17, 2017 00:22
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The original FF had so many terrible bugs. Buff spells not working or actually making you worse, opposite for debuffs. Weapon special properties not working at all, I don't think some class features worked right, etc.
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Jun 17, 2017 00:32
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Yeah, my comment was on games that do status effects as useful/not being very game-dependent rather than "FF games do this" or "modern games do that". FFV is "all classes are brokenly good, some are more broken than others" (which is what makes its replayability so good for Fiesta runs) and status is a part of that, other games require status abuse (SMT games, particularly if you include elemental weakness/etc in that category; a lot of the Dragon Quest games to a lesser extent) and some of them have status effects that are more trouble than they're worth (FF6, in part because Blind is actually broken to do nothing). The frustrating thing is that many games don't convey which rules they're operating under, and the effect of some statuses can be subtle.
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Jun 17, 2017 00:39
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Pvt.Scott posted:The original FF had so many terrible bugs. Buff spells not working or actually making you worse, opposite for debuffs. Weapon special properties not working at all, I don't think some class features worked right, etc. One of my favorite FF1 facts is that in the original version you can buy the spell AMUT/Vox, which cures Silence. The trouble is that no enemy in the game has the capacity to inflict silence on you.
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Jun 17, 2017 02:11
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Commander Keene posted:She's the third boss, counting the tutorial fights with Shadow Yosuke and Shadow Chie. But Shadow Chie occurs in the Castle, so even if you generously count the liquor store as a "dungeon", she's only the second. You can't go back to the room that was created for Misuzu, and there are no fights and everything happens in a cutscene the only time you're there, so that one can't count as a dungeon even by the loosest of definitions. At least there's two fights in the liquor store and you can go back there afterwards (only to get a weapon for Yosuke, though). Really, though, I'd count her as the game's first boss, because like I said, Shadow Yosuke and Chie are tutorial fights designed more to teach you how to play than to challenge you. Shadow Yukiko is the first time the game really tries to kick your rear end - and even in her nerfed Golden form, she can still do it fairly easily. This. For the first actual boss Yukiko is bullshit. Elemental nullification, powerful attacks, summoning minions who are drat beefy. You're also strapped for cash and resources since, again, it's the first real dungeon in the game and you don't have the levels or money to go nuts with Persona fusion. Her Golden version is much more reasonable, and it even has an amusing gimmick since you can make her waste a turn by scaring her minion off.
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Jun 17, 2017 06:23
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Staticpulse posted:Edit: And there was the time the devs put in awful terrain that would OHKO you and a common random pokemon encounter that could trigger that effect that you can't run away from! Now that's hard mode! Ok wait, what? Is this still in the game? If so, I guess we'll see when we get there but if not I really want to know more about this.
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Jun 17, 2017 07:07
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Pvt.Scott posted:The original FF had so many terrible bugs. Buff spells not working or actually making you worse, opposite for debuffs. Weapon special properties not working at all, I don't think some class features worked right, etc. NES FF2 had its fair share of bugs and quirks too: - Confirming an action such as attacking or casting a spell then cancelling it would still provide weapon/spell XP. Taken to extremes this led to instances like having a 70% chance to dodge an attack with the worst shield in the game and having so much attack power barehanded that you could one shot enemies for a fair portion of the game. - Most weapons and all shields had heavy spell casting penalties, penalties to the tune of effectively reducing your spirit (white magic power) and intelligence (black magic power) by 40 to 100 points each. At no point is this indicated on a stat screen so if you didn't know ahead of time you'd just think that magic sucked compared to physical attacks. - It is possible to dual wield weapons (or shields), but only the first weapon is used to determine the amount of hits and damage dealt. You still gain weapon experience with the second weapon though. - There is a weapon in the game called the Blood Sword that restores HP to the wielder equal to the damage it deals. This weapon is coded such that it deals damage equal to 1/16th of the target's max HP with each hit, ignoring defense, and if memory serves there are two Blood Swords in the game. In short, two characters with sufficient sword skill can focus their attacks on any non-undead enemy in the game and kill it in a single round. - There is another weapon in the game called the Ripper. The Ripper is supposed to deal twenty bonus damage per hit but this bonus doesn't actually work. - The way to raise your stats basically boils down to doing things that correspond to the stat in question, so taking damage was the way to gain extra vitality and max HP, dodging enough attacks would increase the number of times you could dodge future attacks per round, etc. Due to how the systems worked though it was possible to do things like cast a spell that swaps your current HP/MP with that of the weakest enemy in the game and guarantee yourself a boost to your max HP and MP per battle. - The Ultima spell is intended to be the most powerful attack spell in the game, gaining power as the other spells that the character knows gain levels. However, none of the intended bonuses actually work so level 16 Ultima does a few hundred points of damage even if every other spell in the character's list is also level 16. - It is possible to instantly kill an enemy through a combination of casting the Wall spell on them then casting an instant death spell. Wall is supposed to block any spell cast on the target once, but the battle system instead removes the target from battle. This is exactly as exploitable as it sounds. - The Protect spell is supposed to increase the defense of anyone it targets but only the caster can receive a defense boost.
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Jun 17, 2017 12:55
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Falconer posted:NES FF2 had its fair share of bugs and quirks too: Don't forget that there's a lot of late-game enemies with this effect on their attacks, too. So while you CAN crank your HP into the stratosphere early with Swap or something, this will bite you in the rear end if you don't level up your evasion to match.
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Jun 17, 2017 14:49
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Yeah, FF2 is one of those games where building your character(s) to have huge amounts of defense at the cost of evasion is a fairly bad idea. If it's not enemies with normal attacks that act like the Blood Sword, it's enemies with a status ailment (or up to six ailments in the case of the Great Marlboro) attached to their attacks. If it's not enemies with status ailments on their attacks, it's critical hits which act like the target has zero defense. Speaking of evasion, it's possible to overflow the evasion stat to where it wraps around to near zero by having too much agility along with a high-tier shield equipped and a high shield level. So, FF2 inadvertently penalizes you for having too much of a good thing.
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Jun 17, 2017 17:27
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Falconer posted:Speaking of evasion, it's possible to overflow the evasion stat to where it wraps around to near zero by having too much agility along with a high-tier shield equipped and a high shield level. So, FF2 inadvertently penalizes you for having too much of a good thing. In FF Mystic Quest, you could kill the final boss with healing due to overflow values. Only with your companion though, your hero's magic was so strong that it would overflow twice and go back to healing the boss. Or maybe I have those backwards.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:07
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Bruceski posted:In FF Mystic Quest, you could kill the final boss with healing due to overflow values. Only with your companion though, your hero's magic was so strong that it would overflow twice and go back to healing the boss. Or maybe I have those backwards. I believe you have it backwards. I also seriously thought at the time it was intentional, I started using healing magic offensively against the last run of bosses on the advice of a guide that thought it worked because they were actually undead.
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Jun 17, 2017 18:17
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Omnicrom posted:I believe you have it backwards. I also seriously thought at the time it was intentional, I started using healing magic offensively against the last run of bosses on the advice of a guide that thought it worked because they were actually undead. I discovered that one accidentally and also thought it was an issue of them being undead. I didn't find out it was an overflow issue until many years later.
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Jun 17, 2017 20:09
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   At some point when the game starts before you leave the Grand Hall with your starter, a bunch of variables are randomized. One of them decides whether a Pachirisu or a Zigzagoon is bullied here. _____________________________________________________________________________________________     Another one of those variables determines whether a Wingull or a Panpour is coasting around this building. _____________________________________________________________________________________________   You can actually fish on the polluted waters. All you get here is Grimer, though. _____________________________________________________________________________________________   Ledybas appear in this garden in the morning only. _____________________________________________________________________________________________ Right after you beat Julia, the game finally gives you the opportunity to grab a Ground-type Pokemon. For the Pokemon in question to appear, we'd have to go back to the ruined train station when it is raining. I don't know if anything in the game hints at this.  And by raining I mean mildly raining where the rain lines are angled toward the bottom of the screen. This Numel doesn't appear when it's thunderstorming or otherwise have the rain lines angled towards the left side of the screen. Guess it only seeks shelter when there's thunder about, even though it's a Ground-type.  It looks like it doesn't quite know what to do with itself. Do you want to give Numel Pokesnax? (Yes/No) ...  Upon obtaining it, it randomly learns one of four special moves picked at random.  One of those moves is Stockpile. It can also have Growth, Iron Head, or Body Slam. All are actually decent moves, if at varying degrees of usefulness. If you doubt me regarding Stockpile, it's been modified in recent generations to also boost Defense and Special Defense by one stage, giving it a general use rather than having to be paired with other moves to be useful like in Gen III.   While we have a Pokemon with Magnitude, let's reduce our Numel's level and take it on a test drive on the Underground Railnet.  You may have noticed that Ground-type Magnitude did in fact hit that flying Pokemon just now. If we use Magnitude again...     The ceiling collapses and OHKOs both Pokemon on the field. Yeah, they have a unique cave terrain that OHKOs all Pokemon on the field when Magnitude is used twice.  _____________________________________________________________________________________________  This Igglybuff you get from the paranoid lady also has a randomized special move not unlike the Numel.  Okay, this one is not particularly special.  Perish Song, on the other hand, is more useful. For one, gym leaders usually leave their bullshit ace Pokemon for last, which means that they'll have no other Pokemon to switch to and thus are vulnerable to this move. There are also a bunch of trainer battles later on that pit you against one assholish and/or overleveled Pokemon, which are also vulnerable.   Misty Terrain is very noteworthy indeed. This terrain effect, much like Electric Terrain, has also gotten a massive 'overhaul' for Pokemon Reborn. You thought Electric Terrain got a bunch of unneeded poo poo effects associated with it? It got nothing on Misty Terrain! It can technically be used against Julia to override her Electric Terrain for 5 turns, but it comes back after the Misty Terrain wears off. Here's Misty Terrain's Bulbapedia page for comparison. This GIF is a link to a test page with the individual frames describing this terrain, but you'll be better off reading my version below.  Here are all the effects for this incarnation of Misty Terrain, with the new effects bolded: Pokemon are immune to status. Created by Misty Terrain for 5 turns. Also created by Mist for 3 turns if the user doesn't hold an Everstone. The power of Dragon-type attacks are halved. Fairy-type Pokemon has their Special Defense boosted by 50%. The Marvel Scale ability is activated, which boosts the Defense of the Pokemon with it by 50%. Pokemon with the Dry Skin ability slowly regain HP. The Pixilate ability's power boost becomes 1.5x. The following moves have their power boosted by 1.5x: Aura Sphere, Clear Smog, Dazzling Gleam, Doom Desire, Fairy Wind, Icy Wind, Magical Leaf, Moonb;ast, Mist Ball, Mystical Fire, Silver Wind, Smog, Steam Eruption The following moves have their power reduced by half: Dark Pulse, Night Daze, Shadow Ball Sweet Kiss's accuracy becomes 100% Aromatic Mist and Cosmic Power are upgraded under this terrain. Sweet Scent lowers Defense & Special Defense. Wish's HP recovery is increased to 75% of Max HP. Aqua Ring's HP recovery is increased to 1/8 of Max HP. Destroyed by Defog, Gust, Hurricane, Razor Wind, Tailwind, Twister, or Whirlwind Becomes the new terrain "Corrosive Mist" when one of the following moves is used twice: Clear Smog, Poison Gas, Smog Selfdestruct and Explosion cannot be used. Nature Power becomes Mist Ball instead of Moonblast like in the official games. Secret Power reduces the target's Special Attack when it hits. Camouflage causes the user to become Fairy-type.  Good news is that the next gym leader doesn't use this terrain. Bad news is that I don't want to see the gym leader that actually does use this terrain. While we shouldn't be able to look at the exact information for this terrain yet, we will find said information in the update after next, so I'm covering it right now while we're here. _____________________________________________________________________________________________   Not only can you get Meowths with Pickup, you can also get Quick Claws from them. One is all we need, and it'll see use later on. Regarding the question asked earlier in the thread regarding stealing Julia's Emolga's Potion, yes, you can steal it with Covet or a Pokemon with Magician hitting it (Which Fennekin, a starter you can obtain, can have as its ability). I wouldn't recommend it, not only because of 110 BP Acrobatics, but also because it's useless to do so: Items stolen via Covet or Magician become held items. If they were stolen during a trainer battle, they are returned at the end of said battle. Which means we can't actually steal the Potion for ourselves. _____________________________________________________________________________________________  For my convenience in finding items in later updates, I've also hacked myself an A really bad example of such a hidden item is this Super Potion here:  Yeah, this was in the factory that got destroyed by Julia. It's in the middle of the floor you can stand on, and there's no indication that it may be there.  It seems I was technically wrong about there being no Revives back when I was talking about the Julia battle. Problem is that you wouldn't be able to find this without the Itemfinder or some other way of finding this item, so you'll most likely not get this Revive in time for the Julia battle. _____________________________________________________________________________________________ Okay, now that we're done with the Peridot Ward for the time being, we can hightail it to the Obsidia Ward next time. Coming this week:  Vines! Vines everywhere!  Also trees.  Slums with very bleak music!  Scraggies in boxes!     Scraggies who don't need no trainer, at that!  Cain singing lyrics taken from Pokemon anime movies!  And this thing. Bydoless fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 00:08
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Bydoless posted:Here are all the effects for this incarnation of Misty Terrain, with the new effects bolded: Why? Why?
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Jun 19, 2017 00:16
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Bydoless posted:Yeah, they have a unique cave terrain that OHKOs all Pokemon on the field when Magnitude is used twice. Over/under on this being a pro tactic in a later fight?
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Jun 19, 2017 00:18
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Bydoless posted:Also created by Mist for 3 turns if the user doesn't hold an Everstone.  Why? Why wouldn't it work if you are holding an everstone?
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Jun 19, 2017 00:54
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BlazeEmblem posted:
Electric Terrain also had this quirk. Ion Deluge applies it for 3 turns without an everstone. I guess this game made some nonsensical change to the everstone that would make it worth holding?
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Jun 19, 2017 01:14
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...I approve of the scraggy gang.
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Jun 19, 2017 01:24
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BlazeEmblem posted:
I think their reasoning went like this:  If it's called Mist why doesn't it cause Misty Terrain? Because it's a move from Gen I while Misty Terrain originated in Gen VI? That reasoning frightens and confuses me. That won't do. Let's make it also add Misty Terrain for 3 turns on top of that original effect. Isn't that a bit much? Okay, if peons want the original effect unchanged then we can make it so that holding... say... an Everstone... prevents our new addition to the move? Wouldn't it be better if you make it so that the extra effect procs if you're holding an Everstone rather than otherwise? Nonsense! Everybody needs to experience our new wonderful game mechanic!
Bydoless fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 01:31
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Haifisch posted:Of course they do. But somehow you survive the entire ceiling collapsing on you!
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Jun 19, 2017 01:34
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Bruceski posted:In FF Mystic Quest, you could kill the final boss with healing due to overflow values. Only with your companion though, your hero's magic was so strong that it would overflow twice and go back to healing the boss. Or maybe I have those backwards. Late, but best as I can recall you can also slap him with the status healing spell, which will simply drop him in one shot without any mucking about.
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Jun 19, 2017 02:20
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PMush Perfect posted:That's a hell of a redtext. poorlifedecisions.jpg this and pokemon uranium LP made me pick up pokemon again
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Jun 19, 2017 03:13
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Jesus that misty terrain write-up, it just kept going, and going, and going, and going, and going... Also, invisible Revives with no tells? gently caress you game. You either give people the itemfinder or its equivalent early in the game so they can find random hidden stuff or you make hidden item locations intuitive or you do both and have both. Putting a completely unmotivated Revive in the middle of nowhere speaks to a misunderstanding on the part of Reborn about a fundamental aspect of gameplay design. Put simply, on a certain level you actually want your players to have things and be successful and win. Yeah, sure, if you're making a game you can put in a hidden item that your players can't ever find, but that's easy and stupid. The trick is to put in a hidden item that your players CAN find, that's good design.
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Jun 19, 2017 07:05
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I'm gonna take a wild stab in the dark and guess that the item that gives you info about different terrains is completely unusable when you're in a battle. Am I right in assuming that?
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Jun 19, 2017 07:27
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Omnicrom posted:Jesus that misty terrain write-up, it just kept going, and going, and going, and going, and going... Remember how FF6 had Elixers in almost every clock? Imagine that but they're just randomly around the place with no tell at all. That's this design. In fact if all the Revives were in say... book shelves, then that might be helpful. The Golux posted:...I approve of the scraggy gang. I mean you can approve of a Scraggy gang and still disapprove of the game as a whole.
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Jun 19, 2017 07:36
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That Revive is 1000% bullshit for sure, but comparing it to that Super Potion is extremely unfair to the latter. It, at least, is in an obvious gap signalled by those barrels and otherwise has nothing there. It's the exact kind of spot where hidden items are generally placed.
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Jun 19, 2017 08:05
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Dragonatrix posted:That Revive is 1000% bullshit for sure, but comparing it to that Super Potion is extremely unfair to the latter. It, at least, is in an obvious gap signalled by those barrels and otherwise has nothing there. It's the exact kind of spot where hidden items are generally placed. I would agree if it was one step further south, at the end of the little side path, and was basically stashed in the barrel - that's the only space I'd think to check. Most games don't usually hide items one step before the end of the side path, unless they also have the quirk where you can't walk on the hidden item space until you pick it up.
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Jun 19, 2017 10:57
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That Scraggy gang is one of the few good things about this game. Also, I hope you like those vines, because you're gonna be seeing them for awhile.
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Jun 19, 2017 11:06
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I actually like the idea that using Magnitude inside a cave collapses it on top of you Does Earthquake do the same? Is it a feature of all caves?
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Jun 19, 2017 11:27
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That cave effect with Magnitude is what I was referring to earlier. Later in the game there are Arena Trap Diglett which, coincidentally, know Magnitude at the time you're in the area. It seems they have changed it to two uses for the cave in OHKO effect, but it used to be single use only!
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Jun 19, 2017 13:23
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