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Groogy posted:It's always cute seeing people trying to understand what is Clausewitz problems and what is Game code problems. I know the answer to those! The programmer!
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Jun 19, 2017 11:16
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Groogy posted:It's always cute seeing people trying to understand what is Clausewitz problems and what is Game code problems. I find the technical behind the scenes stuff fascinating, so feel free to educate us.
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Jun 19, 2017 12:02
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Mans posted:Fair enough i was badly informed and it was just puppet related mechanics. The AI builds motorised infantry where they're correctly employed as the infantry escort for light tanks and stuff. It doesn't make motor divisions, because they're almost always effectively superceded by mechanised divisions.
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Jun 19, 2017 12:09
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Stairmaster posted:has anyone ever seen a tank http://oldforum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=96380&d=1343642352
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Jun 19, 2017 12:46
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kanonvandekempen posted:I find the technical behind the scenes stuff fascinating, so feel free to educate us. Well the main thing without putting blame on anyone specific it is just pretty much someone being sloppy. The engine provides tons of tools for us but it can't actually do poo poo for us, we have to implement it ourselves. See it more like Unity(which is more of a canvas) than Unreal(which is more straight guided for FPS). When things go slow it is more likely someone didn't understand that a function is super CPU intensive and use it in a loop that goes through like every province in the world or something. Also common is someone thinks oh well this don't need to be super optimized because it's not going to be used that much further down the road. The original code base as well is based on an older generation of programmers where you didn't use to think about cache misses, memory locality, etc. since speeds on computers were still adhering to Moore's law. Also to keep in mind is that we have lately been hiring a ton of people in order to keep our production going as always meanwhile as we add more features, raise the bar for our quality* on release of stuff etc. And these new people will take some time getting into a code base where some parts that to be honest is 15 years old. Me and Johan laughed the other day about that we found a source file from Svea Rike. Clausewitz Bleeding Edge version which Stellaris is sitting on has been pretty much rewritten from ground up and there's some really awesome and cool features in there that is still not used by any of our active projects. This rewrite was kind of built ontop of the improvements spurred by Runemaster for instance and other lessons we've learned just simply from making CK2 and EU4. I can tell you of a thing that caused some slow down that I fixed for Third Rome. So for Expansion specific modifiers we have a fallback value, so local development cost gives goods produced modifier instead etc. This was all hacked in so every time you asked modifiers it had to check for that value. It's a very simple "Is it this? yes or no", super fast. But since modifiers are so integral to our game and are used everywhere it amounts up to a lot of unnecessary cpu time. So that was redone into more of a lookup table to check on which means if the modifier doesn't need to fallback on something that code is never run while if it does it has its own edge case put in a separate structure. This is not someone being sloppy, this is a software problem we have the solve that most programmers probably never have to face. Summary: It is getting better but we as a profession within Paradox needs to learn on how to deal with software issues that pretty much most companies don't have. Which is also super fun because it means every single day, even if it is just fixing some boring tooltip, I am being innovative. This was a bit generic about performance issues and their relation to the engine, if you have anything specific you are curious over just ask. *Look, if you peer back to before, our quality and stability of our releases has only been getting better and more structured over time. I know right now people are saying the quality of third rome is somehow poo poo even though I think we've gotten like 8 bugs reported since launch and we had near infinite amount of time to just sit and fix stuff and improve things that needed a nice rework (like the make state tooltips which was completely unreadable so I remade it with icons instead and sorted it by development.) Groogy fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 13:09
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Stuff is generally a lot harder when you're making your own tools, because the effort tradeoffs are different. Does Paradox have things like a profiler to see what bits of engine code and game scripts are occupying the most CPU time? That's the sort of thing that comes in really handy for performance work, but is also often the sort of thing that never gets created if someone would have to implement it themselves for a scripting language that only they use.
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Jun 19, 2017 13:29
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Groogy posted:*Look, if you peer back to before, our quality and stability of our releases has only been getting better and more structured over time. I know right now people are saying the quality of third rome is somehow poo poo even though I think we've gotten like 8 bugs reported since launch and we had near infinite amount of time to just sit and fix stuff and improve things that needed a nice rework (like the make state tooltips which was completely unreadable so I remade it with icons instead and sorted it by development.)
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Jun 19, 2017 13:39
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Also cool thing that you can't really see from just playing the game. Moving a title from one character to another in CK2 is some of the most complex, convoluted code ever to have been created by man.Jabor posted:Stuff is generally a lot harder when you're making your own tools, because the effort tradeoffs are different. Yeah we do have bunch of tools and we have bunch of tools in development as well. We also have time dedicated for each programmer to just sit and fiddle around, improve etc. I usually use that to implement much needed tools and modding stuff. Like in CK2 we have a -debugscripts flag which enables error messages for scripts that is on by default in development mode which can be used by modders. Think Stellaris also stolen that feature but not 100%. I implemented that because I got tired of modders asking me "why does this script not work?" cool new Metroid game posted:stellaris 1.6 lol Let me tell you the story of my youth.....Was it EU3 NA that just literally broke everything and it wasn't fixed until IN? Or was it IN to HttT? Ages ago but I remember back in the days when you had to sit an entire year with a game that wouldn't even launch. Good ol' days huh? I am not saying we are perfect and poo poo doesn't happen but come on you can't say we are getting worse at this with a straight face. Edit: it was -debugscripts flag and not -scriptdebug Groogy fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 13:45
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Yes, EU3 COMPLETE has an unfixed crashing bug on one of the main screens which was solved in the next dlc. Which was not in EU3 complete. Because ????
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Jun 19, 2017 13:57
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Groogy posted:Let me tell you the story of my youth.....Was it EU3 NA that just literally broke everything and it wasn't fixed until IN? Or was it IN to HttT? Ages ago but I remember back in the days when you had to sit an entire year with a game that wouldn't even launch. Good ol' days huh? I am not saying we are perfect and poo poo doesn't happen but come on you can't say we are getting worse at this with a straight face.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:02
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Groogy posted:Yeah we do have bunch of tools and we have bunch of tools in development as well. We also have time dedicated for each programmer to just sit and fiddle around, improve etc. I usually use that to implement much needed tools and modding stuff. Like in CK2 we have a -debugscripts flag which enables error messages for scripts that is on by default in development mode which can be used by modders. Think Stellaris also stolen that feature but not 100%. I implemented that because I got tired of modders asking me "why does this script not work?" LordMune fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 14:08
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corn in the bible posted:Yes, EU3 COMPLETE has an unfixed crashing bug on one of the main screens which was solved in the next dlc. Which was not in EU3 complete. Because ????
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Jun 19, 2017 14:10
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cool new Metroid game posted:just lol'ing at the bug fixing patch introducing even more bugs. and I've been playing since eu1 so I know the troubles of the past. I've been playing since the prequels to the EU franchise  First game with Europa Universalis in it's name was a Svea Rike game.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:15
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Groogy posted:I've been playing since the prequels to the EU franchise Anyway, thank you for the insights, it is neat to learn little things like that stuff you were posting. Where do we march once we have taken up our pitchforks and changed our forum avs to the rebel flags when we have had enough with Ming/Mandate of Heaven being broken in EU4?
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Jun 19, 2017 14:18
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Where do we march once we have taken up our pitchforks and changed our forum avs to the rebel flags when we have had enough with Ming/Mandate of Heaven being broken in EU4? 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington, D.C. 20500 U.S. Also I am not that old, it is just pretty much every single kid of my generation in Sweden have played those games.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:20
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I think it's kinda silly to go "haha this one patch or DLC had some bugs  " No one can dispute that Paradox release quality has gotten a lot better since their old days.
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Jun 19, 2017 14:24
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GrossMurpel posted:I think it's kinda silly to go "haha this one patch or DLC had some bugs stellaris didnt have many bugs because to have bugs you have to have content
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Jun 19, 2017 14:25
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Groogy posted:1600 Pennsylvania Avenue  Groogy posted:Also I am not that old, it is just pretty much every single kid of my generation in Sweden have played those games. 
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Jun 19, 2017 14:40
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We want svea rike 5!! Or at least make it possible to buy Two thrones again it's gone from every store
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Jun 19, 2017 14:44
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if another Svea Rike started up I would be on that project so fast. You all waiting for Vicky3 when the real poo poo is at Svea Rike 
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Jun 19, 2017 14:48
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Groogy posted:if another Svea Rike started up I would be on that project so fast. You all waiting for Vicky3 when the real poo poo is at Svea Rike Svicky Rike
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Jun 19, 2017 14:57
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Groogy seriously I want to be able to give paradox money for Two Thrones and, hell, Iron Cross. Let me buy them again
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Jun 19, 2017 15:26
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Groogy posted:Well the main thing without putting blame on anyone specific it is just pretty much someone being sloppy. The engine provides tons of tools for us but it can't actually do poo poo for us, we have to implement it ourselves. See it more like Unity(which is more of a canvas) than Unreal(which is more straight guided for FPS). When things go slow it is more likely someone didn't understand that a function is super CPU intensive and use it in a loop that goes through like every province in the world or something. Also common is someone thinks oh well this don't need to be super optimized because it's not going to be used that much further down the road. The original code base as well is based on an older generation of programmers where you didn't use to think about cache misses, memory locality, etc. since speeds on computers were still adhering to Moore's law. Also to keep in mind is that we have lately been hiring a ton of people in order to keep our production going as always meanwhile as we add more features, raise the bar for our quality* on release of stuff etc. And these new people will take some time getting into a code base where some parts that to be honest is 15 years old. Me and Johan laughed the other day about that we found a source file from Svea Rike. Clausewitz Bleeding Edge version which Stellaris is sitting on has been pretty much rewritten from ground up and there's some really awesome and cool features in there that is still not used by any of our active projects. This rewrite was kind of built ontop of the improvements spurred by Runemaster for instance and other lessons we've learned just simply from making CK2 and EU4. I really appreciate this post, thanks!
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Jun 19, 2017 15:39
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Jabor posted:Does Paradox have things like a profiler to see what bits of engine code and game scripts are occupying the most CPU time? That's the sort of thing that comes in really handy for performance work, but is also often the sort of thing that never gets created if someone would have to implement it themselves for a scripting language that only they use. It's been a couple of years, but I still crack myself up when I remember that at one point, >70% of CK2's CPU load was every Greek character analyzing every other character in the game, every single day, to see whose balls they could chop off.
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Jun 19, 2017 15:51
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ninjahedgehog posted:It's been a couple of years, but I still crack myself up when I remember that at one point, >70% of CK2's CPU load was every Greek character analyzing every other character in the game, every single day, to see whose balls they could chop off.  I knew it was a problem but I never heard that it was that much.
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Jun 19, 2017 15:59
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Every Greek ruler would go through every single person in the world and ask himself "Hmm can I castrate you? No? Okay how about you then?" So it was only apparent in late game saves where someone had restored the Roman empire or something like that. I mean I totally understand the AI, every morning when I wake up I go through my mental list of people and check if I should castrate them today. Don't you guys? No? Just me being weird?
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Jun 19, 2017 16:03
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ninjahedgehog posted:It's been a couple of years, but I still crack myself up when I remember that at one point, >70% of CK2's CPU load was every Greek character analyzing every other character in the game, every single day, to see whose balls they could chop off. this is extremely CK2
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Jun 19, 2017 16:17
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Groogy posted:*Look, if you peer back to before, our quality and stability of our releases has only been getting better and more structured over time. I know right now people are saying the quality of third rome is somehow poo poo even though I think we've gotten like 8 bugs reported since launch and we had near infinite amount of time to just sit and fix stuff and improve things that needed a nice rework (like the make state tooltips which was completely unreadable so I remade it with icons instead and sorted it by development.) I remember paying for and playing through the bug-disguised-as-an-expansion that is Divine Wind; if these chucklefucks think third rome is buggy then they definitely don't know their paradox history.
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Jun 19, 2017 16:34
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Paradox might still have the odd dodgy version but we're still miles away from the EU3/V2/HOI3 days of paradoxreleasestagesofgrief.jpg where you'd spend about a week after release being super excited and then gradually more disillusioned as you realised how fundamentally broken everything was. e:\/\/ every AI built nothing but transports forever Alchenar fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 16:40
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HOI3 on release when the UK AI would build nothing but transports. I think there was also that CK2 demo where people figured out how to lift the time limit and just play forever.
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Jun 19, 2017 16:44
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Jeoh posted:this is extremely CK2 While making Reaper's Due, one of our new hire scripters briefly induced a bug which killed every single child in the game. I was a bit torn between showing them where they went wrong or high-fiving them for one of the most pure "That's CK2" experiences ever.
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Jun 19, 2017 16:45
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gradenko_2000 posted:I think there was also that CK2 demo where people figured out how to lift the time limit and just play forever. this is a cool bug & should never have been fixed likewise I'm gonna be bummed out if they nerf Siberian frontiers as a custom nation in the Americas, it's the most unique game of EU4 I've played in ages.
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Jun 19, 2017 17:06
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Groogy posted:I've been playing since the prequels to the EU franchise GrossMurpel posted:I think it's kinda silly to go "haha this one patch or DLC had some bugs
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Jun 19, 2017 18:07
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Groogy posted:Every Greek ruler would go through every single person in the world and ask himself "Hmm can I castrate you? No? Okay how about you then?" Out of curiosity, how did you guys wind up fixing this one? Do they now only check if they can castrate their prisoners every day?
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Jun 19, 2017 19:29
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Koramei posted:this is a cool bug & should never have been fixed I imagine they'll just up the point cost drastically so it's less (not?) feasible for ~achievements~, but you can still run it for fun. Having it cost 0 has got to be the buggiest bug in bug town.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:21
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Pretty loving annoyed that my gamersgate version of Victoria II is PC only and if I want to get it for Mac I'd have to pay $52 CAD on steam.
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Jun 20, 2017 01:25
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Weird BIAS posted:Pretty loving annoyed that my gamersgate version of Victoria II is PC only and if I want to get it for Mac I'd have to pay $52 CAD on steam. You used to be able to have GG export a steam key for you to move your purchase to steam, did they stop supporting that feature? I used it to move C2, vic2 and eu3 to steam.
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Jun 20, 2017 02:03
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Yeah like I have EU 4 and CK 2 in steam and gamersgate but not Victoria 2. When i look at it on GG i don't see a steam key option anywhere.
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Jun 20, 2017 02:13
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That's weird, I'd email support and see what they say before buying it again.
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Jun 20, 2017 02:14
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Weird BIAS posted:Pretty loving annoyed that my gamersgate version of Victoria II is PC only and if I want to get it for Mac I'd have to pay $52 CAD on steam. vicky 2 gets real cheap during sales, so just wait a few days and you'll be able to get it pretty fairly priced. still bullshit though!
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Jun 20, 2017 02:15
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