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I want to say that the shears can be used to widen a gap that's already wide enough to fit a wrist through, but maybe that counts as "breaking" the sealed room, even if you didn't touch the chain? Likewise taking the pins out of the door and opening it the other way. Also I don't know that either could be done in the time available, unless that's not a real constraint, since it wasn't stated in red.
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Jun 19, 2017 19:05
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I think it's fair to say we only have as much time as he would have had while Erika was in the bathroom. I still think outside rescue is the most likely path, although that just moves the problem to trying to break a different closed room.
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Jun 19, 2017 19:11
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Actually he has as much time as he needs if his trick could work to open the door without damage to the original duct tape seal Erika placed. And given how those seals are described, taking the hinges off and turning the door such that the tape acts as a hinge might do the trick. I'm not sure if the description of the duct tape seals would make it impossible or not. It would certainly take a lot of care to pull off without breaking the seal, but he could have all the moms to help him, unless Erika is supposed to have killed them all before everyone moved to the guesthouse which seems a tall order.
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Jun 19, 2017 19:23
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Pretty sure Erika killed all the moms as she was running around "examining" the corpses before the migration to the guesthouse. She's a beast 
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Jun 19, 2017 19:40
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ZiegeDame posted:It would certainly take a lot of care to pull off without breaking the seal, but he could have all the moms to help him, unless Erika is supposed to have killed them all before everyone moved to the guesthouse which seems a tall order. I'm not 100% sure, but I THINK Erika's murdering happened when she was running around checking the crime scenes while the dads were talking things over, before moving everyone to the guest rooms. If it was after she escaped the rooms, though, yeah, he could have had the "victims" help him.
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Jun 19, 2017 19:43
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Pretty sure Erika's murdering happened after the letter was received.Graylien posted:I'd imagine that counts as setting the chain from outside, and therefore banned by red. Mmm, I'm not quite so sure. It's certainly possible that could be the case, though. The bigger problem does come from the fact that the seal is unique to Erika, though I can't really imagine how that would be usable on a chain. At this point, unless we can break another closed room, I feel it has to center on the fact that the chain link was broken originally. Might it be possible to extend the length of the chain lock in some way, perhaps... idonotlikepeas posted:I think it's fair to say we only have as much time as he would have had while Erika was in the bathroom. I still think outside rescue is the most likely path, although that just moves the problem to trying to break a different closed room. Honestly, I think that one's even harder. Their locations were confirmed at the time they were sealed, so it's even harder to get around that. And that second room contains 'everyone else' too, so no other people are available.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:12
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I understand that this is the "R07 dumping on Battler power hour," and that it's all going to tie together to reach the scene where Battler is going to marry Erika, but still consider my heartstrings tugged. It was kinda hard to read this update where all of Battler's hopes are being torn apart.BurningStone posted:A thing that occurred to me after the discussions of the last week: who's telling this story? It comes up in literature sometimes: when you read something written in the third person, are you directly seeing events, or is their a narrator standing between you and the story, telling you about it? I'm in the latter camp, but it seems different interpretations are built into different readers and it's hard to change that feeling. Usually it doesn't matter, but here it does, because it makes you ask "If I'm lied to about a scene, who's doing the lying?" For me, it's the author. When Krauss punches goat-kun, I think the author is lying, not that Krauss is having some type of delusion or trying to fool me. On the other hand, we had a scene where Natsuhi is drinking tea and sees Beatrice with her, but the narrator switches to another viewpoint and shows she's alone. For that, I believe Natsuhi is delusional. Hey, these are pretty good thoughts, no need to apologize for them. I'm glad that someone else thought about series of events we're seeing not necessarily as a story being told by an unreliable narrator. It's been pretty interesting as well seeing what Ryukishi's thoughts are on how people are interpreting the mystery they made, and how Erika represents a certain aspect of the audience that fears that everything that is being seen is nothing more than lies and cheats. oath2order posted:
  
EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 20:30
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BurningStone posted:A post a little bit ago said something about liking the characters. Uh, no. Would you want to spend a weekend with the Ushiromiyas? Or go to a witches' tea party? The author does an excellent job of making unpleasant characters understandable, but they're still unpleasant. A good character does not have to be a good person. The adult Ushiromiyas are terrible people, the worst kind of broken, and from the way Ange acts, it's possible that the kids would have inherited that, too. Witches live on a different layer of reality where magic is tangible and "the Golden Land" isn't a euphemism, but an actual paradise, and take explicit glee in their basic immortality and the visceral brutality of being able to dismantle people like meat puppets. Nobody in their right mind would want to be chummy with any of these characters (save potentially the kids, and the servants) in real life, but that doesn't mean they cant like them as characters; they're compelling to read about. Yes, even Erika, the Best Detective. It's easy to solve a murder when you're the culprit. KataraniSword fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 20:43
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I would just like to note that I'm very disappointed that Dlanor is so happy to have helped murder 5 people. Why is she even still helping Erika? Isn't she supposed to aid the detective? And yes, now more than ever Battler should have broken the seals on the other two rooms. He has a perfect justification. It was silly that Erika basically teleported there. Also, Erika once again demonstrated her incompetence (and malice, but mostly incompetence) with her belief that a person could cut themselves into small enough pieces that they'd fit down a drain. The red stuff in the bodies isn't just there to show they're dead, Erika, it does useful things too. Also, torsos and heads are full of all sorts of things that hands just won't work without. And arms, too. What I'm saying is that given her level of anatomy knowledge I think Battler could make a strong case that she didn't actually cut the heads off of those people, and instead cut off their fingernails, because she thought those were the most important part of the body. So, it actually is Battler trapped in that room. So how can he actually escape? One thing that he can do (but isn't allowed to do in the trap) is leave the room, do things elsewhere in the house, and then come back. Also, Erika has retconned tons of stuff. Here's a trivial solution for Battler: Erika relocked the chain lock after Battler left the room. Bam, solved. Erika can try to argue that she did not actually do that but she's not a reliable witness. Qrr fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 21:02
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The boat accident that Erika was on before she washed up on Rokkenjima was not an accident. It was a deliberate attempt on her life by people she knew, because she's legitimately murderous. If it weren't for the fact that she is part of the game, the attempt on her life succeeds. Amazing how utterly human Shortcackle is right here, while Erika is such a piece of poo poo of a human being. She's honestly the kind of person I despise the most, in real life. I'm sure that we'll get more insight on her backstory in later episodes, but the fact of the matter is: she murdered people over a prank, and intends to have her way with Battler just to prove her intellect is superior. That's not something you come back from (in 2 episodes). Is this what it means, "Without love, it cannot be seen"? That without love, you start metagaming a story to show you know how it's going to play out, versus enjoying a story for what it is and connecting with others? Qrr posted:I would just like to note that I'm very disappointed that Dlanor is so happy to have helped murder 5 people. Why is she even still helping Erika? Isn't she supposed to aid the detective? She's mocking Battler. bman in 2288 fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 21:11
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Reminder Erika is playing for her life here just as much as Battler. Extremely smugly but still.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:24
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Qrr posted:I would just like to note that I'm very disappointed that Dlanor is so happy to have helped murder 5 people. Why is she even still helping Erika? Isn't she supposed to aid the detective? You appear to gravely misunderstand what mockery means. Also in what world would people go "we're playing a prank on someone, let's demonstrate how badly we want to foil our own plan by doing something we'd never do except we have metagame knowledge that the person we're trying to fool isn't nearby". You're treating them as pieces on the board more than you are treating them as people, and specifically applying metagame knowledge to do so. Both rooms think she's in the other room, so why would they go talk to that room so that they could break their own prank? And again, if we try and argue "nothing Erika ever sees is reliable" then we drop into the "stupid theories that are devoid of love" level of reasoning, and I'd very much not like to do that. It's not remotely entertaining to cheat to try and win this game.
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Jun 19, 2017 21:43
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I think that Lambda's description there is by far the scariest thing in the entire games so far.
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Jun 19, 2017 22:00
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Moments like this one are my favorites in the series. I think that the best part of the game isn't its overall plot, but the time when the characters go at it against each other with the most demented logic possible and abusing loopholes  It's absurdly entertaining and save for one or two old timey novels there isn't really anything like it.
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Jun 19, 2017 22:09
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Cyouni posted:You appear to gravely misunderstand what mockery means. I think if your mockery doesn't make sense then you've failed at mocking. As for people leaving their rooms: put yourself in their shoes. Both rooms believe that the person they're pranking is in the other room and will be there til morning. They believe there is no danger. And they don't know about the seals. So why would they spend their time cooped up in a little room with canned food? It would actually be really weird if Krauss and friends didn't leave the room the moment they thought Erika was staying in the other room. And Erika is willing to cheat to win the game, with retcons (besides the one she was granted) and teleporting. Why would I not cheat to beat her? It's a theory that's consistent with the rest of the game. Battler was going to have Kyrie hide from Erika in that room tiny room for an arbitrary amount of time. Heck, Battler initially hid himself in the closet. Literally the only reason Erika didn't find Battler is because she was actively trying not to find Battler - we have seen before that ignoring things is one of her premier powers.
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Jun 19, 2017 22:31
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Erika has always been utterly horrible. Let us not forget her break up with boyfriend cause she would rather be right and smug it up then have a relationship.
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Jun 19, 2017 22:34
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ZiegeDame posted:Actually he has as much time as he needs if his trick could work to open the door without damage to the original duct tape seal Erika placed. And given how those seals are described, taking the hinges off and turning the door such that the tape acts as a hinge might do the trick. I'm not sure if the description of the duct tape seals would make it impossible or not. It would certainly take a lot of care to pull off without breaking the seal, but he could have all the moms to help him, unless Erika is supposed to have killed them all before everyone moved to the guesthouse which seems a tall order. Wait, when Erika enters the room, doesn't she have to take her seal off first? And then she can't put it back on when she's inside, so she then puts the chain in place instead. That's how I understood that sequence of events; the room "is sealed," but the duct tape gets removed.
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Jun 19, 2017 22:38
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Doc Hawkins posted:Wait, when Erika enters the room, doesn't she have to take her seal off first? And then she can't put it back on when she's inside, so she then puts the chain in place instead. That's how I understood that sequence of events; the room "is sealed," but the duct tape gets removed. She repairs the chain with duct tape, because the chain was cut when they had to get into the room.
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Jun 19, 2017 22:47
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Rune Full Moon posted:I'm not 100% sure, but I THINK Erika's murdering happened when she was running around checking the crime scenes while the dads were talking things over, before moving everyone to the guest rooms. If it was after she escaped the rooms, though, yeah, he could have had the "victims" help him. In that case I'd argue that if Erika can run around the mansion carrying tons of garbage bags and at least 5 knives without any of the people trying to prank her noticing, then Battler can pop out the hinge pins and reset them through the crack from the slightly open door in the time it takes Erika to shut off the water.
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Jun 19, 2017 23:12
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Qrr posted:She repairs the chain with duct tape, because the chain was cut when they had to get into the room. Ah, right. But in effect that means that the door is chained, not taped. I thought folks were talking like it was both.
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Jun 19, 2017 23:17
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Doc Hawkins posted:Ah, right. But in effect that means that the door is chained, not taped. I thought folks were talking like it was both. She presumably taped it in some special way so that Battler couldn't un- then re- tape it without her knowing because she's Erika Graylien fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 23:24
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Doc Hawkins posted:Ah, right. But in effect that means that the door is chained, not taped. I thought folks were talking like it was both. The door was taped before Erika entered to look for Battler.
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Jun 19, 2017 23:26
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Qrr posted:I think if your mockery doesn't make sense then you've failed at mocking. Qrr posted:As for people leaving their rooms: put yourself in their shoes. Both rooms believe that the person they're pranking is in the other room and will be there til morning. They believe there is no danger. And they don't know about the seals. So why would they spend their time cooped up in a little room with canned food? It would actually be really weird if Krauss and friends didn't leave the room the moment they thought Erika was staying in the other room. Qrr posted:And Erika is willing to cheat to win the game, with retcons (besides the one she was granted) and teleporting. Why would I not cheat to beat her? It's a theory that's consistent with the rest of the game. Battler was going to have Kyrie hide from Erika in that room tiny room for an arbitrary amount of time. Heck, Battler initially hid himself in the closet. Literally the only reason Erika didn't find Battler is because she was actively trying not to find Battler - we have seen before that ignoring things is one of her premier powers. And obviously you miss the point that she didn't want to find Battler because she wanted a logic error. That's literally stated right as she enters the room, and is also specifically the reason she goes through and actually falls for the shower thing - so that he can have enough time to pull off the trick he'd planned and have it be preemptively invalidated. Not to mention the whole retcon thing was explicitly mentioned earlier. That was literally the whole point of that room section - the fact that retcons could be used by the witch side in relation to that room, and the human side would be allowed to respond to them. The thing is that none of Erika's moves were even retcons, excepting retroactive taping - they were just actions already taken beforehand, which is why Dlanor is perfectly capable of being the one that notes Kyrie as being unusable. The 'teleporting' is literally irrelevant, because the result in no way changes if it chronologically happens after the whole closed room investigation. What you're suggesting would be the equivalent of grabbing someone else's chess pieces and making moves for them. At which point, we're not even pretending we're playing a game with rules anymore. ZiegeDame posted:In that case I'd argue that if Erika can run around the mansion carrying tons of garbage bags and at least 5 knives without any of the people trying to prank her noticing, then Battler can pop out the hinge pins and reset them through the crack from the slightly open door in the time it takes Erika to shut off the water. Reminder that the other five had to have been alive at the time of the receipt of the letter, because Battler was still taped up in his room at that point. So the other people that could have noticed were in other rooms (save Maria) or shut up in the guesthouse. Doc Hawkins posted:Ah, right. But in effect that means that the door is chained, not taped. I thought folks were talking like it was both. The door was taped before Erika entered, in a way that disturbing it would rip the tape in half. After Erika entered, she taped the chain back together and used it to lock the door.
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Jun 19, 2017 23:39
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 Source contains spoilers so I won't link but this is a pretty good fan comic.
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Jun 20, 2017 00:01
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lotus circle posted:
If you weren't going to link it, I was :3
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Jun 20, 2017 00:14
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ZiegeDame posted:The door was taped before Erika entered to look for Battler. I had hoped my posts made it clear that I understood that part, and that I was talking about the time after she entered. E: The only significance I can see of the tape being used to repair the chain is that the door is definitely not taped after Erika enters. That's what I wanted to know. Oh, although if the red text permitted the chain to be reset but not taped, then it could mean it had been replaced somehow...but I doubt that's a path to the answer. Doc Hawkins fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 00:14
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lotus circle posted:
This was really cool, thank you! Question: did r07 have someone commissioned to do the opening intros of his game? I was really surprised to see latest one that I thought was nicely executed, but it had seacats character portraits instead of the ps3 versions. I want to look it up, but I'm afraid of spoilers.
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Jun 20, 2017 00:25
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EagerSleeper posted:I was really surprised to see latest one that I thought was nicely executed, but it had seacats character portraits instead of the ps3 versions. The version I linked uses the PS3 sprites, so I'm not sure offhand what you're thinking of. That's actually, I believe, a fan-recreation of the old PC version's OP with the new sprites - the actual PS3 game had a totally different OP, which I won't be linking here until EP8 on account of it's full of insane spoilers.
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Jun 20, 2017 00:28
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Cyouni posted:Because that's like "why wouldn't the corpses start holding a little party in the dining room after people leave because why not". If you're trying to trick someone, you don't do the exact opposite of what you're pretending to do in the random hopes that you're not going to be caught. Literally all that would need to be done to get caught would be "the door to the room Erika's in opens". How about because pranking people is no fun if you can't see their reactions to the prank? It's not so unbelievable that someone in a room without Erika in it would start to get antsy and start to take risks or otherwise make an excuse to go check out how Erika was reacting, and since BOTH rooms now don't have Erika in them, the likelihood that at least one person would get reckless is that much higher.
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Jun 20, 2017 00:29
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Another point to consider: If Battler lets the duct tape seals on those doors be broken because people just wandered out, then Erika will already have the answers to every mystery on the board, and the game would end in her victory. Whether that's better or worse than being trapped in logic reconfigure hell for a subjective eternity, well. That's up for debate.
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Jun 20, 2017 00:36
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ProfessorProf posted:Another point to consider: If Battler lets the duct tape seals on those doors be broken because people just wandered out, then Erika will already have the answers to every mystery on the board, and the game would end in her victory. Only if that's where he leaves the board state. He could still continue to kill people off and pose new riddles through the later twilights, especially since now that Erika has ACTUALLY killed a bunch of people, he's got presown seeds of distrust to work with for motives. Unless Erika just straight up announces she's the murderer, I guess, which does seem most likely...
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Jun 20, 2017 01:09
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ProfessorProf posted:Another point to consider: If Battler lets the duct tape seals on those doors be broken because people just wandered out, then Erika will already have the answers to every mystery on the board, and the game would end in her victory. But the game wouldn't actually end. She'd solve the first mystery, sure, but that doesn't prevent him from creating more. Like, what if there were more actual murders, ones that Erika didn't do? She would have burned the heck out of her ability to interact with the Ushiromiyas, what with all the murders, so you would get a game board where she's universally hated and feared and can't seal any more rooms. That sounds like a great position to be in, much better than eternal hell. Beatrice has lost early things before. Some of them she was only pretending to lose, and came out with red text later countering his theory, but still. The witch only needs one win.
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Jun 20, 2017 01:11
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bii posted:If you weren't going to link it, I was :3 Literally came into the thread to post this only I'd been scooped
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Jun 20, 2017 02:02
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ProfessorProf posted:The version I linked uses the PS3 sprites, so I'm not sure offhand what you're thinking of. That's actually, I believe, a fan-recreation of the old PC version's OP with the new sprites - the actual PS3 game had a totally different OP, which I won't be linking here until EP8 on account of it's full of insane spoilers. I can't remember who posted it earlier, but for sure the video I saw was in this thread. Hearing that it's a fan-recreation of PS3 makes sense I suppose. In that case I am impressed by how they managed to pull that off.
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Jun 20, 2017 04:14
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Qrr posted:I would just like to note that I'm very disappointed that Dlanor is so happy to have helped murder 5 people. Why is she even still helping Erika? Isn't she supposed to aid the detective? Dlanor is just the literal embodiment of Knox, which is impartial. I don't think she's particularly "happy" about the murders, she just... gets really excited about her job.
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Jun 20, 2017 10:49
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ProfessorProf posted:That's actually, I believe, a fan-recreation of the old PC version's OP with the new sprites - the actual PS3 game had a totally different OP, which I won't be linking here until EP8 on account of it's full of insane spoilers. Not having played the PS3 version myself, I can't EagerSleeper posted:Question: did r07 have someone commissioned to do the opening intros of his game? I was really surprised to see latest one that I thought was nicely executed, but it had seacats character portraits instead of the ps3 versions. I want to look it up, but I'm afraid of spoilers. I don't think Ryuukishi07 made the original opening sequences for his own games. I tried looking things up on VNDB.org, and I couldn't find full info, but I did find out that at least one of the movies for the first PC game was made by RMG Rainbow-Motion-Graphics, which says it's a movie designing organisation. They've made opening sequences for a lot of visual novels. Van Dine fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 13:46
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 BGM: None   BGM: Kina no Kaori   ""Yeah, it's a lie! Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha."" "We were just so bored of showing up the same way every time...!" "We thought we'd change our style a bit!" "We're entertainers! And the stage is alive!" "You've got to ad lib every now and then...!" "Y, yeah, we could've done without that, dammit..." "...Thanks for helping remove the tension, you two. Sorry, but we're still talking about what to do in the second trial. We'd like a little more time. And if possible, some quiet." "Sorry, George-kun. Actually, we have a truly important announcement regarding the second trial." "It is good news for some! Is it bad news for others?" "Those for which it is bad news, have probably already figured it out!" ""If you don't know what we're talking about, then it's good news for you!!"" "...Beatrice-sama...?" "...It's nothing." "..."Five people were there. Only Battler was missing. And Beato's expression was dark, her head hanging low. Everyone realized that something must have happened to Battler...  Everyone murmured. Just what had happened...? "The witch's game will wait forever for him, but a pair of lovers cannot wait forever." "Love is like ice cream! It's sweet and creamy, but if you don't eat it quickly, you'll lose it. Our game isn't so gracious that it'll wait for him to return." "...So that's what you meant by good news." "Heh. Well, I'm glad that our rivals have gone down in number, but if you thought I'd applaud another person's misfortune, you're totally wrong..." "Battler-kun... the one we thought of as our greatest enemy... I won't ask why. If the demons in charge say so, then that's how it is." "...Then... what will happen to Beatrice-sama...?" "...It seems I will lose the right to take this trial." "After all, this is a trial to test the bonds between lovers!" "Battler-kun isn't currently capable of doing that. So, his pair is disqualified! How truly saddening...!" "However, she is one of the participants in this three-way trial of love. So, I think we should let her watch the trial as an observer!" "A splendid idea! She does have the right to bless the pair that does overcome the trial!" "...Are you okay with that?" "Yes... I want to watch until the end. And, I still believe he will come back quickly, regain the right to join in, and continue this trial with me once again." "...I think she has the right, to be an observer." "No objections." "...There's no need for us to be cruel." "But even so, we've lost a powerful rival. Sorry to you two, but I'd like to settle this trial right away." "Ah, that's George-kun for you! I'm rooting for you the most on the inside!" "The coldness with which he furnishes that love, makes its heat stand out all the more...!" "At any rate, we've now gone from three down to two, and the three-way deadlock has been resolved. We weren't able to fight proactively because we were afraid of a one against two situation." "...Now that it's one against one, it's just a good, clean duel." "..." BGM: None The four people stood up as though responding to some invisible summons... and faced each other, glaring... Only Beato was off to the side, watching the course of the young lovers' fight in suspense. Each of the lovers have an unbreakably strong bond. Then, isn't that enough? Their love is already the real thing. There's no need to test it. But if so, then why must they fight...? The lovers who won would be bound together by the magical miracle, and the defeated lovers would fall apart. Why have the demons promised us that we will fall apart without a magical miracle...? Why is a demon's game like this necessary? I don't understand. No, they aren't important right now... I have to think of a trick for escaping as soon as possible, so that I can save Battler-san from that closed room...  BGM: Dead Angle  "Big sister..." "I would like to save you, both as my dear sister and as a part of my full self. I will tackle Battler's closed room in my own way, but it is difficult. It feels almost as though an ordinary chain has been made to look like a wire puzzle..." "I heard from Lambdadelta-san. She said that the old Beatrice could definitely solve this with a trick. Don't you have any idea?" "That old Beatrice is our completed form after we become one. Even I am naught but a part of her. I cannot solve it..."In other words, no matter how much we think in our incomplete forms, we won't be able to understand. Both the older and the younger sister... have no way of solving this riddle... Beato shook her head, chasing that thought from her mind.  "I won't give up... I'll set right to work on that closed room...! Unless I can save Battler-san as soon as possible, his heart will be crushed." "...Of course, I have no reservations about lending my own wisdom. However, even I cannot make anything out of this closed room..." "If we put our heads together, I'm sure we'll find the same answer that we would if we were joined. Please, don't give up and lend me your wisdom...!!" "...I still cannot understand why you are willing to go so far for Battler, but I shall do as you ask. After all, it is a request made by myself. I will add my wisdom to yours..." "Look, Furfur. The two Beatos are thinking together." "...I wonder if those two can really save Battler." "Oh, they can! If they have the miracle of love, that is...!!" "That's right, Zepar! They can certainly do it if they have the miracle of love on their side!" BGM: None  "..."The two Beatos brought their foreheads together, and, straining their minds with all they had, they searched for a plan to save Battler with. It was as though they couldn't even see the four people glaring at each other and solemnly discussing the manner of the duel... "...They'll realize. If they have love, they certainly will."They were the demons of love. Love is the single element. The source of all miracles. Could the miracle of love... provide an answer for a closed room trick...?  BGM: A Single Moment  "But closed room tricks are part of a genuine, ruthless mathematical puzzle without a fragment of affection within it. Just what kind of hint could these demons be talking about...?" "...I already have a certain answer. What these demons have said supports that even further..." "Yeah, okay, you're incredible. You always know the right answer. And you'll never let me hear any of it. Going by the rule of observers, until you tell me about it, it's possible that you're just pretending that you know and lying." "Pft, hhahahahahahahahahahaha. Yes, I believe I do prefer a bad-mouthed miko. Very well, child of man. To me, a miko's sarcasm and abuse is like a ceremonial dance in my honor..." "Yeah, you're a real irritating master. Stupid Onii-chan, why did you make a closed room like that... yourself..." "Think, child of man. Thinking is not only a job for the characters within the tale. As a Reader, you too have the right to enjoy thinking. And I enjoy watching you as you do." "...I'm willing to make a bet. Your last miko ran out of patience and ran away from you, didn't she?" "You are free to enjoy yourself by scolding me. You are also free to consider the problem like the two Beatos. Unless you think, the tale will not continue." "Why? I'm a Reader, right? Can't I just stay quiet and read?" BGM: Look Back "...! I see, you're a pretty unpleasant author, aren't you?"Of course, Ange hadn't reached the end of the manuscript she was reading. However, it would end with just a few pages more. What about the manuscript for the rest of the tale? It should continue much further than this. There should be many more pages remaining... Those were inside a different brown envelope, which was in Hachijo's hand. With a grin on her face, Hachijo waved the thick brown envelope about. 'If you want to read more, do what I tell you'.  "Cool...! Looks like she got you, Lady! Hahahahahahahahaha, ahhahhahhahhahhahha...!"Letting you read only so far for free... and then stopping when it finally gets to the good part. Amakusa couldn't stop laughing at this evil business practice.  "Your own views and reasoning. That's what I want. If you tell me those now, I'll hand over the rest of the manuscript." "Quit mocking me. You think I'll just do whatever you say after something like this...?" "Come on now, Lady, calm down. I want to read on too, so please just chill a bit." "...About the rest of the manuscript, Hachijo. You write about the answer to the closed room trick and the truth behind various riddles, right?" "Of course. However, I haven't written it so that those who fail to think or consider will understand..." "...Eventually, your passionate readers are gonna say that you've betrayed them." "I understand that, which is why I don't go out in the open. Child of man." "Anyway, this is what Hachijo's trying to say: First, tell me your answer. After that, I'll let you check it." "...Correct, young man. I am not trying to be mean. I am asking because I want you to truly understand the tale's conclusion." "You're really enjoying this, aren't you, Amakusa. Yeah, come to think of it, you always take those TV quiz shows totally seriously. It looks like you enjoy life much more than I do." "Come, please think. What miraculous trick could get Battler out of the closed room? I want to give the rest of the story especially to those... no, only to those who have thought..." BGM: Hikari Erika, who wanted to savor the memory of her perfect victory, stood there with the whole vast cathedral to herself as the flush slowly left her cheeks. Then, on the balcony that she had thought empty... a shadow came into view. It was... Lambdadelta...  "...Oh, it's you, Lady Lambdadelta. It's not often one finds you alone in a place like this." "...Oh, you. Congratulations on your big victory. Heheh, that's strange. I think I remember saying the same thing to you right here at the end of last game."She was probably trying to be sarcastic. However, Erika was in such a good mood that even those words had sounded like a compliment. "I... happened to hear what you said a short while back." "...What?" "I heard that you have also... had the experience of being toyed with as a piece on some great witch's game board, then sealed away in some awful hell..."Erika had an unpleasant, triumphant look on her face, as though she had managed to pry into some embarrassing memory of the other's past. However, Lambdadelta didn't look in the least bit flustered, and instead looked down from the balcony in silence.  BGM: As Time Goes By  "Are you saying... that my master also fell into the hell of a logic error at some point...?" "She did. Though she wasn't the one responsible for that logic error." "...Because she wasn't the Game Master...?" "That's right. At that time, she was still a small piece that wasn't even self-aware yet. It was her master, the Game Master, who committed the logic error." "...My master was also... a witch's piece?" "Yes. That kid's master... was another bad one. Though she created the game herself, partway through, she lost sight of what her goal was. She ended up creating something like a broken game of backgammon, where the start and goal were connected like a donut." "What do you mean, she lost her goal...?" "I'm talking about a logic error. In her backgammon game, she was unable to draw up a line of logic describing how to reach the goal she desired. So, the game remained broken, with no goal at all." "...In that case, she should have quieted down and thought of an answer herself. Instead, she despicably left even the thinking entirely to her piece, Bern. Have you heard of the infinite monkey theorem? It's a theory... no, an absurdity... arguing that, if a monkey hits random letters on a typewriter for an infinite amount of time, he will probably end up with the exact same set of letters as Hamlet by coincidence, sooner or later. Wouldn't that be a horrible hell? Bern was forced to type randomly on a typewriter for an eternal period of time, without even knowing the meaning of what she was doing. The Game Master was trying to get Bern to create a goal, that the same Game Master hadn't even thought of." A job you have to do a hundred times... and a job that you have to keep repeating until it succeeds with a 1/100 probability... may look very similar probabilistically, but the difference in cruelty between them is great. When you have to do a job a hundred times, you steadily approach the end, get more efficient as you become more used to it, and it eventually does end. However, a job that succeeds with a 1/100 probability... doesn't reflect the hard work of the individual in the slightest. Everything is left to luck. In the worst case scenario, even the task of flipping a coin until you get heads... can last more than a hundred years...  "How many keys are there on a typewriter? About a hundred, maybe. What do you think the odds are of hitting those at random and getting Hamlet...?" "...I can't... even imagine. They must be... unbelievably small." "That's right. It's not really any different from an endless span of time. For that dizzying sort of time, that child kept pounding on that typewriter until she typed out a 'miracle'." "And that's why... she's the Witch of Miracles...?" "If she wasn't a witch... no, if she hadn't been able to become a witch, she would probably still be a black cat strapped to that typewriter for eternity. That child was blessed by a miracle, succeeded in typing out a 'miracle', became a witch, and returned from that hell alive." "That hell was so long and harsh... that her mind was completely broken. That's why she became such a mean and heartless witch. Even you would dislike your master if given the choice, right?" "Th, that's not true...! I am honored to be my master's piece. My master is strong and a persecutor. Trampling over the weak is her natural right." "...Because she's a human on the bully's side of life...? Heheh. Do you know how to create a great bully?" "...? No." BGM: About Face "And surprisingly, though the person only has to be bullied for about three days, you'll get them to believe, for a hundred million times longer than that, that they are still being bullied, and you'll have yourself a great bully." "...What does that have to do with my master?" "...You don't understand anything about Bern. No matter what kind of ruthless, cruel, horrible scum Bern may be, I want to be the one person who knows what she's truly like. And it's the same for me. I think that kid, as a fellow survivor from hell, is the only one who can understand what I'm truly like." "...It sounds like you're jealous of the relationship we have, but give it up. The hell you think you've trudged through is nothing more than a blink compared to the one we crawled out of." "..."This time, Erika was probably the one being made fun of. The discouraged expression on her face clearly showed that she couldn't accept Lambdadelta's words.  "Oho...? You think so, Witch of Truth, Erika?" "I don't know what kind of hell you were in, Lady Lambdadelta. And I'm sure the time I spent in hell was nothing more than a flash compared to yours. However, I don't think the depths of my hell were any shallower than yours." "...I'll listen to all you have to say, including your victory celebration, without arguing back." "From my point of view, both the hell my master fell into, which could only be escaped by a miracle, and the hell you fell into, which I don't know about but could be escaped from with certain willpower... were 'hells made to be escapable'." "Aha... So you say." "I am the Witch of Truth. My hell was nothing more or less than the truth. When faced with the harsh reality of truth, no sort of willpower or miracle matters. I reached this place by overcoming that truth. I don't believe my power of withstanding the truth is in any way inferior, to yours or my master's." "And what is this 'power to withstand the truth'?" "...Those who don't know cannot understand. Perhaps you two couldn't become Witches of Truth, because you couldn't bear to look at it directly..." "...Heh... heheheheheheheheheh. I'll forgive you for those impudent words. Letting them pass with a slight nod is my present to you for your recent victory." "*giggle* ...Thank you very much, great Lady Lambdadelta?" "Oh, that's unusual. It's rare to spot you two getting along."At some point, Bernkastel had appeared on the opposite balcony of the cathedral. Erika, noticing her, cried 'my master' happily and dashed over.  "Lady Lambdadelta was telling me old stories about you. A tale of miracles fitting for my master, the Witch of Miracles...!" "...I'll forgive you just this once." "Huh?" A grimace rose to her face and blasted Erika's good mood away. Then, she understood. Bernkastel was also a witch running from boredom. If it caught up with her, she would remember. Those never-ending days of hell... This is proof... that even my master still hasn't gotten over the pain and fear of hell. It means... that she lacks the power to withstand the truth. For the first time, Erika felt just a little disdain for her master.   "...I was looking for you, I wanted to give you a reward." "A reward! Really?! Th, thank you very much, my master!!" "Ooh? Wow, I'm jealous! What are you gonna give her?" "First, I acknowledge your ascension as a true witch, not just a temporary one. I'll be your guardian. Witch of Truth, Furudo Erika." "Th, thank you very much!!" "All you did was remove the temporary bit. That sort of reward can't be very pleasing. She really deserves something better, don't you thi~nk?" "N, no, that's not true, I'm very pleased."Of course, on the inside, Erika wanted another present. Mimicking Lambdadelta, she also looked around to see if there were any other rewards. "I do have one other."Bernkastel snapped her fingers. As she did, a cloud of gold butterflies gathered, and summoned Battler sitting in a throne at the center of the cathedral. Of course, his eyes were blank. He was still an invalid, his heart trapped in the closed room that he would never be allowed to escape from... 
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Jun 20, 2017 13:46
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I get the feeling that Erika's hell, while not as bombastic as Lambda and Bern's, is much more self-inflicted than she's letting on. She sounds like me when I was an edgelord, so that's my reasoning. So the hint is there, regarding Battler's escape. I think it had to do with letting Beato observe the love game further. Nothing solid yet, but maybe it's to do with the Beato sisters putting their heads together, signifying that the two rooms full of the living Ushiromiyas and company leaving their rooms to find what's taking everyone so long. Wait, no. That's not the trick. Repetition requested: the hint was given this latest update.
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Jun 20, 2017 14:27
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bman in 2288 posted:Repetition requested: the hint was given this latest update. I think we're well past the part of this game where I need to give out red for free.
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Jun 20, 2017 14:28
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ProfessorProf posted:I think we're well past the part of this game where I need to give out red for free. What if I gave you a compliment?
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Jun 20, 2017 14:49
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