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The Dark Wind posted:Question regarding all this C# talk: How open are the companies that normally use C# to taking on developers without a CS degree? For some reason, I've always mentally classified any job that requires heavy Java/C# work to always require a degree, but I have no idea if this actually has anything to do with reality itself. I only hear good things, and a similar discussion to this one popped up in the forum a few weeks ago, so I'm curious, but also wondering if it's a viable path for my non-CS-degree-having self. A lot of them (although I feel this has trended down recently) require a degree, but it generally doesn't have to be CS.
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Jun 17, 2017 02:19
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On top of that the worst devs I have worked with have all been Java devs so it could potentially be very easy to impress in that field.
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Jun 17, 2017 02:26
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Helicity posted:Your posts feel extremely stream-of-consciousness - I'd highly recommend organizing your thoughts and focusing on the actual problem you're trying to solve. Because "make forums better" sounds iterative to me, and doesn't excite me in any way. I hope I have some time to put this in practice so is more than some hot air. Tei fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Jun 17, 2017 |
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Jun 17, 2017 06:48
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Tei posted:I hope I have some time to put this in practice so is more than some hot air. I'll ask again, be specific. What do you want forums to do that you don't think any forum does? You mentioned they're not social enough, what does that mean in terms of features?
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Jun 17, 2017 11:15
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The Dark Wind posted:Question regarding all this C# talk: How open are the companies that normally use C# to taking on developers without a CS degree? For some reason, I've always mentally classified any job that requires heavy Java/C# work to always require a degree, but I have no idea if this actually has anything to do with reality itself. I only hear good things, and a similar discussion to this one popped up in the forum a few weeks ago, so I'm curious, but also wondering if it's a viable path for my non-CS-degree-having self. I don't have any sort of degree and have been programming for almost 20 years now, including 11 of them in C#. A public repo containing work you have done in the language you are trying to get hired for will go a LONG way towards getting you a job. Create your own projects, contribute to open source ones. Put that poo poo on github or bitbucket and put the url to your public repos on your CV. The basic skills, not matter what the size of the project are essentially the same. If you create a front-end app in ASP MVC, backed by a SQL database you designed, and data flow via a service you created, you are basically there from a technical skills standpoint. Unless they are looking for a specialist is something not super common (network programming guy, database specialist, large data flow/secure data channels, etc) then it mostly boils down to personality after that. I am on the market right now, and after pointing them to my public repo, I rarely get asked technical questions at the actual interview. Usually they are pretty chatty, get-to-know-you-and-is-this-guy-a-sperglord-who-can't-talk-to-normals kind of affairs. If I do get questions they are usually quick "is his resume full of poo poo or not" ones. I have been interviewing for lead/architect roles lately, so those questions are semi-technical, but more like "what would be your approach to solving this?"
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Jun 17, 2017 15:12
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HaB posted:I don't have any sort of degree and have been programming for almost 20 years now, including 11 of them in C#. A public repo containing work you have done in the language you are trying to get hired for will go a LONG way towards getting you a job. Create your own projects, contribute to open source ones. Put that poo poo on github or bitbucket and put the url to your public repos on your CV. My struggle with this is coming up with ideas for my own projects that are small enough to be realistically completed in a well architected way by a full-time dev in his spare time. What kind of projects would you suggest for this? Is a todo app too overdone? Or does it not matter, since they're (supposed to be) looking at your coding?
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Jun 17, 2017 15:44
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HaB posted:I don't have any sort of degree and have been programming for almost 20 years now, including 11 of them in C#. A public repo containing work you have done in the language you are trying to get hired for will go a LONG way towards getting you a job. Create your own projects, contribute to open source ones. Put that poo poo on github or bitbucket and put the url to your public repos on your CV. Thanks for this, it's really motivating to hear that at the end of the day, provable skills is what counts. I've been focusing mainly on JavaScript at the moment, and learning TypeScript is on my to-do list. From what I've read, that should prove to be a natural segue into C#, so I'm definitely going to have to dedicate some serious time in the near future to making some projects in C# and getting familiar with it. Thanks!
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Jun 17, 2017 17:25
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The Dark Wind posted:Thanks for this, it's really motivating to hear that at the end of the day, provable skills is what counts. I would say C# is a natural segue into TypeScript more-so than the other way around, but I can imagine learning TypeScript before jumping straight to C#, or at least while learning C#, would be a great way to unlearn some of the hacky weird stuff often present in JavaScript. I think you're onto something there. Regarding degrees, I also have no formal education in computer science or anything else related. I just worked my way to where I am. It's one of those fields where you can literally take examples of your work and show it directly to those who are looking to hire. A lot of trades don't have this luxury, we're kind of lucky.
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Jun 18, 2017 03:11
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a hot gujju bhabhi posted:I would say C# is a natural segue into TypeScript more-so than the other way around, but I can imagine learning TypeScript before jumping straight to C#, or at least while learning C#, would be a great way to unlearn some of the hacky weird stuff often present in JavaScript. I think you're onto something there. One thing to keep in mind is that, in C#, the types are REAL and matter. In TypeScript, they are like the Pirates Code... more suggestions than rules.
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Jun 18, 2017 04:31
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Sorry for this terribly stupid question: what does a successful resume (i.e. you can get hired with this) look like for someone trying to get a job with some 2nd/3rd tier company in this field?
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Jun 18, 2017 09:59
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Love Stole the Day posted:Sorry for this terribly stupid question: what does a successful resume (i.e. you can get hired with this) look like for someone trying to get a job with some 2nd/3rd tier company in this field? What is a 2nd/3rd tier company
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Jun 18, 2017 10:34
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a hot gujju bhabhi posted:What is a 2nd/3rd tier company I have no idea actually. I don't have much context at all for how things work in this industry of yours. I'm asking about small or mid-size businesses, I guess? Like I said, sorry for the terribly dumb question. edit---- vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv i'll throw out some resumes and test that theory (what are those companies btw?) Love Stole the Day fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Jun 18, 2017 |
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Jun 18, 2017 11:02
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Can you turn on a computer? Congratulations, you are hired (at some companies)
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Jun 18, 2017 11:34
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Love Stole the Day posted:Sorry for this terribly stupid question: what does a successful resume (i.e. you can get hired with this) look like for someone trying to get a job with some 2nd/3rd tier company in this field? I do some of the hiring at the small agency where I work. Resume should include languages you have experience with, previous relevant jobs, and not look like garbage. It should also have a link to your GitHub, personal website, or something that shows you actually know how to to write code. You won't get hired from your resume alone, our process is a short phone interview (to confirm you are who you say you are and can carry on a normal conversation like a functioning human being) followed by a technical interview with questions about the language(s) that you want to write for us (no white boarding or algorithms, more like "what is the value of this in this context"), and then an interview with me where we talk about the business side of programming (testing, best practices, working in teams, dealing with scope creep, dealing with clients, managing deadlines, etc.) Basically what we're looking to find out is 1. can you code? 2. can you code in a semi-professional environment as part of a team? edit: 3. also: are you some kind of weirdo that no one will want to work with and that we can't bring to client meetings prom candy fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Jun 18, 2017 |
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Jun 18, 2017 16:07
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Love Stole the Day posted:Sorry for this terribly stupid question: what does a successful resume (i.e. you can get hired with this) look like for someone trying to get a job with some 2nd/3rd tier company in this field? The main point of your resume is to get to the interview stage, not to get you the job. You want it to be something that makes it easy for the person that is reviewing 100+ resumes for the same position to say "it would be worth some of my time to talk to this person".
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Jun 18, 2017 18:18
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Skandranon posted:The main point of your resume is to get to the interview stage, not to get you the job. Right on, that's a good clarification -- I should've said "(i.e. you can get an interview with this)". prom candy posted:Basically what we're looking to find out is 1. can you code? 2. can you code in a semi-professional environment as part of a team? This is super helpful, thanks so much. I asked this dumb question because I've been going through a lot of those video courses and books the past few months so I thought it might be worth trying to see if I can get an interview doing this kind of thing. Usually people ask what to learn or what good companies are out there, but as a goon I figure it'd be better to set my goals a lot lower and ask about something more basic.
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Jun 18, 2017 22:46
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Love Stole the Day posted:Right on, that's a good clarification -- I should've said "(i.e. you can get an interview with this)". Just so we're clear, this is not at all a dumb question. You're being realistic for the level of experience you have - for a junior developer position you often don't need specific experience or degrees, just an ability to demonstrate understanding of the language and a willingness to learn.
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Jun 19, 2017 00:03
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:The one giant TS file run through webpack is the standard and will perform better except in cases where you have so much goddamn javascript that lazy loading is beneficial and you have a requirement to have fast page loads(that's usually around the dozens of megs point.) And honestly the one time I had that problem, I rolled my own loader because it would've taken longer to figure out how to use System.js than to write it from scratch. Helicity posted:SystemJS seems cool, but JSPM really fizzled out and soured a lot of people on it. Just roll a single js file (or two if you want to separate your vendor poo poo). Websites shouldn't be large enough where you need to worry about dynamically loading things client-side. Even HTTP/2 doesn't tip the scale in favor of that flow. Video games, apps that do heavy lifting like displaying geojson shapefiles, etc. are the exception. So I'm trying to get this to work, I was hoping to just be able to use the TypeScript compiler (tsc) with a tsconfig.json configured to spit out a single file, but it's not working. Even as a single file it's including SystemJS stuff. Do I have to use a third party tool for this (i.e. webpack?) Is there somewhere I can find up-to-date documentation on this, everywhere seems to suggest different methods and tools for doing this... (welcome to front-end development, I know). Basically I don't want something that is like "copy-paste this config file and type npm watch". I want to manually introduce each tool and understand why they're being introduced and what role they're playing so I can stick with the bare minimum while I learn. As you can tell I'm woefully underskilled at this stuff, backend is my day-to-day. putin is a cunt fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Jun 19, 2017 |
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Jun 19, 2017 00:06
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a hot gujju bhabhi posted:So I'm trying to get this to work, I was hoping to just be able to use the TypeScript compiler (tsc) with a tsconfig.json configured to spit out a single file, but it's not working. Even as a single file it's including SystemJS stuff. Do I have to use a third party tool for this (i.e. webpack?) Is there somewhere I can find up-to-date documentation on this, everywhere seems to suggest different methods and tools for doing this... (welcome to front-end development, I know). If you're a backend developer who is familiar with Visual Studio, just making the TS project in Visual Studio 2013 or later will have the shortest learning curve. If you're using visual studio 201X, you can right-click your project in the solution explorer and chose Properties> Click on the TypeScript Build tab. Select Combine JavaScript output into file, and type in a name to use for your combined file in the input field right next to the option. Otherwise in TSC you can --outfile "name of file" to combine to single file.
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Jun 19, 2017 01:15
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a hot gujju bhabhi posted:Just so we're clear, this is not at all a dumb question. You're being realistic for the level of experience you have - for a junior developer position you often don't need specific experience or degrees, just an ability to demonstrate understanding of the language and a willingness to learn. Also, gotta emphasize this again, don't be a big weirdo that nobody wants to work with. I've hired less experienced coders over more experienced ones if they seemed like a better overall team fit. You can teach technique, you can't teach the intangibles and having a group of people that actually like each other goes a long way.
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Jun 19, 2017 06:07
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a hot gujju bhabhi posted:My struggle with this is coming up with ideas for my own projects that are small enough to be realistically completed in a well architected way by a full-time dev in his spare time. What kind of projects would you suggest for this? Is a todo app too overdone? Or does it not matter, since they're (supposed to be) looking at your coding? I do new little projects to learn new frameworks from time to time, and most of them are small and silly. Sometimes there will be a website I use regularly that has something horribly wrong with it, so I will write a better version. A silly project I am doing now is a website called "is it hot as balls?" Someone said "it's hot as balls!" one day in the Georgia summer and my first thought was "but like....is it?" So I googled to find out just how hot balls are (around 94f on average) and conceived a site which would grab your location (or let you enter one) and then it would call the openweathermap API and tell you if it IS in fact - hot as balls. When I went to buy the domain, I also purchased the winter time counterpart: "is it cold as gently caress?" A larger one I am doing is a site to manage your vinyl record collection, because discogs.com A - is WAY overkill since I just wanna know what records I have, not whether or not it's the Czechoslovakian pressing of the 1987 reissue, but the one with the yellow label, not the green one and B - was designed by a sadist. But really - I wouldn't think in terms of what you can "complete" so much as just a few things you might pick at from time to time. The smaller ones might someday reach "complete" but I am pretty much always iterating. A neat small project I saw somewhere was an app that simply showed the time, but the background color was set to the time itself, so like if it was 17:43:35 then the background color was #174335. Made for a neat, slowly cycling color effect. But there's a lot of things to fool around with from there: make sure the clock digits stay at a nice contrast from the background. Animate the clock. Let users pick a time zone. Theme it so the time itself is an offset from a base color set by the theme, show a random time-based fact every X seconds. So it's possible to take a small idea and grow it into something more interesting. Pick something trivial and just go from there.
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Jun 19, 2017 12:49
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HaB posted:"is it hot as balls?" "is it cold as gently caress?" Genius
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Jun 19, 2017 16:51
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HaB posted:A silly project I am doing now is a website called "is it hot as balls?" Someone said "it's hot as balls!" one day in the Georgia summer and my first thought was "but like....is it?" So I googled to find out just how hot balls are (around 94f on average) and conceived a site which would grab your location (or let you enter one) and then it would call the openweathermap API and tell you if it IS in fact - hot as balls. When I went to buy the domain, I also purchased the winter time counterpart: "is it cold as gently caress?" Ahaha, this rules.
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Jun 19, 2017 19:20
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I get as far as thinking of the equivalent of the hot as balls site all the time then describe it to someone as a joke and drop the idea, so good on you for having any follow-through.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:07
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http://arepublixchickentendersubsonsale.com/ All you need is a question to get started.
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Jun 19, 2017 20:34
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Anyone have any suggestions or good experiences with trying to share CSS/whatever your styling language is across multiple projects for consistency? We're a react shop if it matters.
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Jun 20, 2017 00:44
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an skeleton posted:Anyone have any suggestions or good experiences with trying to share CSS/whatever your styling language is across multiple projects for consistency? We're a react shop if it matters. Make a general theme and style guide and documentation with examples and explanations of common components, very similar to Bootstrap. This gives people no excuse to not follow that common set of rules for components.
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Jun 20, 2017 00:49
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an skeleton posted:Anyone have any suggestions or good experiences with trying to share CSS/whatever your styling language is across multiple projects for consistency? We're a react shop if it matters. Build a style book and create Polymer elements for absolutely everything with shared CSS inside the elements only. Make sure CSS variables are used. It looks like Polymer 2 mixins may be very useful too. Gildiss posted:Make a general theme and style guide and documentation with examples and explanations of common components, very similar to Bootstrap. This gives people no excuse to not follow that common set of rules for components. Oh yes, examples for everything should be a minimum requirement.
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Jun 20, 2017 00:53
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I'm quickly catching up since this is kind of a whirlwind week with accepting an offer tomorrow... the new gig is not really front-end at all, so I probably won't be in this thread bitching about whatever stupid thing TJ or Abramov said this week  The Dark Wind posted:Question regarding all this C# talk: How open are the companies that normally use C# to taking on developers without a CS degree? For some reason, I've always mentally classified any job that requires heavy Java/C# work to always require a degree, but I have no idea if this actually has anything to do with reality itself. I only hear good things, and a similar discussion to this one popped up in the forum a few weeks ago, so I'm curious, but also wondering if it's a viable path for my non-CS-degree-having self. I'm good friends with some of the best C# developers I've ever come across - people that are at Microsoft, Amazon, etc. doing amazing things and most of them don't have CS degrees, and some of them don't even have degrees. I think a degree *helps*, but it shouldn't limit your career in any way from what I've seen. I have an MIS degree, and some of my mentors have degrees in goofy things like Music Theory. Sidenote: the friends at Amazon are working in Java now, so don't worry that a good company won't want you because you don't have 30 years experience in X language. Good companies want smart people, and smart people can pick up any language easily. A good development shop wants someone that wants to learn and is passionate about development. The number one thing I looked for in the two dozen or so interviews I did at a prominent C# shop is an interest/passion in programming outside of work. Did you follow people on Twitter/blogs/read sites like Hacker News? Did you have a personal Github with stuff you built for your own purposes? A lovely development shop will just want someone that will do the work and not make waves or be a burden. You can handle the latter by just googling <technology> interview questions, taking the top 5 results, and memorizing them all. Spend a few days doing fibonacci sequence, fizzbuzz, and a few other things. You don't *need* the CS / algorithms experience until you're a senior engineer plus, but I strongly recommend any developer taking an algorithms online course from MIT or wherever. Cracking the Coding Interview is also a really good book. Love Stole the Day posted:Sorry for this terribly stupid question: what does a successful resume (i.e. you can get hired with this) look like for someone trying to get a job with some 2nd/3rd tier company in this field? 1-10 years of experience = single page, be prepared to talk about projects you've worked on. I have 5-10 years experience and tried doing two pages for the handful of interviews I did in the last few weeks, and the second page never mattered. Again, read Cracking the Coding Interview. Don't include boring information - it really helps if you've been able to conduct an interview and have a sense of what's boring. GPA is boring unless it's an amazing number. A list of technologies you know is great, but if you put it on your resume, be prepared to answer questions about it. Also, being an "expert" means that you could write a book about something and you are *the* go-to source in a room full of people on the subject. Don't claim you're an expert unless you really mean it. I would get really pissed when I saw someone claim to be an expert in something or have more than 2-3 pages for a resume. I had one resume with 9 pages, and he tried talking so much that I couldn't ask him any questions. I rated him as a '1' (why are we wasting time talking about this person, absolutely do not hire). a hot gujju bhabhi posted:So I'm trying to get this to work, I was hoping to just be able to use the TypeScript compiler (tsc) with a tsconfig.json configured to spit out a single file, but it's not working. Even as a single file it's including SystemJS stuff. Do I have to use a third party tool for this (i.e. webpack?) Is there somewhere I can find up-to-date documentation on this, everywhere seems to suggest different methods and tools for doing this... (welcome to front-end development, I know). nodemon with TS is pretty much as easy as it gets. webpack with TS is the next level. If you have a ton of weird stuff going on, I can see using webpack/babel/TS. Anything else is fluff in most of the cases I've seen. luchadornado fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 01:08
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Just to be clear, you guys are talking about using TS+Webpack in combination with things like Node, React/Angular, etc rather than just explicitly TS+Webpack alone, right? Also PS: thanks for the feedback and posts in response to my dumb question earlier! I think I just need to come up with some small scope ideas to try and implement on my own so that I can buildup to something that could go on a portfolio. I'm thinking maybe two things for a portfolio and then I can try looking around for jobs?
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Jun 20, 2017 10:44
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Love Stole the Day posted:Just to be clear, you guys are talking about using TS+Webpack in combination with things like Node, React/Angular, etc rather than just explicitly TS+Webpack alone, right? Yeah, two is probably enough. Do something that has a front end, and hits a basic service to display data. If you want to be a full stack dev, write the service as well. Node with something like Hapi or Express is really easy to pickup if you already know front-end Javascript.
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Jun 20, 2017 12:20
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Keep in mind that a lot of backend devs frown on Node and monoglots (people that prefer to work in a single language for everything). Node without TS is painful, callback-based programming distracts from writing the important parts (business logic), and the "omg event loop is async/fast" crowd is ignoring that there are easier ways to get full asynchronicity and there are dozens of server stacks faster than any variation of node and hundreds of server stacks that are faster than what most people need. I'd strongly suggest Kotlin/Ratpack if you're looking for something more cutting edge or JVM-flavored, or some sort of Python/Django/Flask setup with optional Tornado for fun. Polyglotism is incredibly underrated when looking for a job. Don't spread yourself too thin, but knowing the strengths and weaknesses of a few languages and knowing how to pick the right tool for the job are valuable skills to have. If you're junior enough where its overwhelming to be a polyglot, there's no shame in sticking with Javascript for your whole stack, but don't be afraid to expand past that once you're comfortable.
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Jun 20, 2017 12:58
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Helicity posted:Keep in mind that a lot of backend devs frown on Node and monoglots (people that prefer to work in a single language for everything). Node without TS is painful, callback-based programming distracts from writing the important parts (business logic), and the "omg event loop is async/fast" crowd is ignoring that there are easier ways to get full asynchronicity and there are dozens of server stacks faster than any variation of node and hundreds of server stacks that are faster than what most people need. It's fair to not like Node, but I hope you can see how you are projecting your own preferences onto the community at large.
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Jun 20, 2017 20:50
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Summit posted:It's fair to not like Node, but I hope you can see how you are projecting your own preferences onto the community at large. Well I obviously don't speak for every developer in existence - my experience with recruiters/peers/interviewers/candidates have suggested there are languages that might be more beneficial to use when trying to impress a company that isn't on the Node train. There are tradeoffs that you make with any stack, and you should expect to be able to explain them in an interview. Node is fine, and I've thrown a lot of it into production. I really like it for some things like Lambda/GCF. There are a handful of benefits of not using Node for something you're using to impress interviewers, though: 1) You can pick a language that neither of you know extremely well, putting you on neutral ground in the interview 2) You can pick a language that embraces concepts that might be relevant to the interview: OO design, DI/IoC, state management, etc. 3) You can show that you are a polyglot and can pragmatically choose the right tool for the job 4) You can show that you enjoy learning new technologies and languages 5) The point that probably rankles you: Node was hyped for awhile by some people, and some people became annoyed with hearing about how superior it was. The community is immature, and has re-invented the wheel or stumbled towards progress in some key areas. There's a handful of large development shops in my city that had bought into the hype. Some people got burned and harbor an unfair grudge against the language - I've run into more people that dislike Node than almost any other language. One of these was in an interview and it was awkward, which is why I mentioned it. Whether these points are important to you or the community at large, they're important to me and a decent number of developers that I know personally. Consider that the context expansion of "a lot of backend devs", and I apologize for any unintended hyperbole or vagueness. I think it's an interesting topic. My takeaway is that there is no single "perfect" language, but any language can be used to write lovely code. luchadornado fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 23:42
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I think the real crime here is using words like polyglot and monoglot at every opportunity
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Jun 21, 2017 00:48
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I'm a Pollyglot.
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Jun 21, 2017 01:07
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ROFLburger posted:I think the real crime here is using words like polyglot and monoglot at every opportunity I'm a monoglot because only have one left and I ran out to the store to grab some more but they were fresh out of glot. 
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Jun 21, 2017 01:11
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Pollyanna posted:I'm a Pollyglot. well played 
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Jun 21, 2017 01:51
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I know javascript, es6, es7, and coffeescript.
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Jun 21, 2017 04:28
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prom candy posted:I know javascript, es6, es7, and coffeescript. Forgetting jQuery?
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