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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z0S0Z8lUTg&t=945s And now to discuss some genuinely good game writing. If you have two hours to spare, this video analyzes Knights of the Old Republic 2's character of Kreia, and what her philosophy means not only to the game itself, but to the entire Star Wars franchise on both an in-universe and meta context. The main gist is that Kreia's plan is to kill Fate by destroying the force, because she sees the repeating cycle of wars in Star Wars as total madness brought by people submitting to a higher power rather than making their own choices. And then goes on to point out how Disney buying out Star Wars to make sequels perpetuates the cycle of bloodshed that Kreia's philosophy abhors. By undoing the happy ending of Jedi to have a new enemy rise up to continue the Light/Dark conflict, the Force maintains its control of fate. Kind of. If you can get past the guy's voice, it is a really good video. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 04:39
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Arcsquad12 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z0S0Z8lUTg&t=945s Because the noble thing would have been to spend billions of dollars on the second most valuable intellectual property after Mickey Mouse and not use it to uh, prevent the cycle of bloodshed
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Jun 20, 2017 05:15
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MonsieurChoc posted:Also this came after Napoleon had Toussaint L'Ouverture murdered instead of accepting a french province of free blacks. seriously holy poo poo using Dessalines as an example when his order never actually happened and explicitly was a 'well, poo poo, gently caress you too I guess' reaction to France literally showing they'd rather let the guy before him die in a hole than even listen to him say 'maybe just let us be free and stop whipping us to death?' The oppressed didn't become the oppressors, they got oppressed harder and then went on to be the western world's whipping boy for the next few generations including in the loving 90's for the unforgivable sin of not wanting to be slaves. The Vosgian Beast posted:Maybe we SHOULD deport the Irish No, idiot, you EAT the Irish, deport the Italians!
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Jun 20, 2017 05:25
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Calaveron posted:Because the noble thing would have been to spend billions of dollars on the second most valuable intellectual property after Mickey Mouse and not use it to uh, prevent the cycle of bloodshed Sure, let's go with that. The whole Disney acquisitoin isn't actually a big point in the video, I just thought it was amusing that he put it in there. It's funny because the need for more Star Wars necessitates undoing the final victory and balance brought by Return of the Jedi, which would make a character like Kreia scream her head off.
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Jun 20, 2017 05:27
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One of the things that's always bothered me about Bioshlock: Infinite that I don't think I've ever seen anyone bring up is that early on in the game (a little after you're discovered), you run across a makeshift hospital, and you find that it's being run by Columbia citizens who are sympathetic to the Vox. I thought that they were going to come into play later on, but they're never brought up again. I think it highlights one of the issues with Infinite's whole theme about the cautionary of extremes; it doesn't seem like there's anyone who's really fleshed out or given much nuance beyond Booker and Elizabeth. Comstock and evil future-music thief swindler guy (I can't remember his name) are all "Minorities are meant to be oppressed and exploited" in all the audio tapes you find, and aren't really given any depth. I don't remember much of Daisy's audiotapes, other than it coming across like she reluctantly became the leader of the Vox via circumstance. Her 'betrayal' doesn't even really make much sense. It's just like, "Oh Booker, you're suddenly alive again? Well I know we were buds in this timeline, but that sort of kills your whole martyr deal, so I guess I have to kill you now." Now suddenly you're fighting the Vox and dealing with Abe Lincoln bots instead of George Washington bots. It was the kind of thing where, if I were writing Infinite, and I wasn't able to deviate too far from what we got (I guess because Ken Levine is pointing a gun at my head or something), I think it would've have been better to have to Vox split into two groups at that point; a group that stays loyal to Daisy, and another group that knew Booker and sided with him, thinking Daisy had gone overboard. I'm not saying that's a perfect fix, but if you were to tie it in with the Vox Sympathizers (say, bring them back into the story at that point, or work them in more throughout the whole story), it still sort of hits upon the whole 'extremes are bad' thing, but gives it a bit more nuance.
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Jun 20, 2017 07:19
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Max Wilco posted:It was the kind of thing where, if I were writing Infinite, and I wasn't able to deviate too far from what we got (I guess because Ken Levine is pointing a gun at my head or something), I think it would've have been better to have to Vox split into two groups at that point; a group that stays loyal to Daisy, and another group that knew Booker and sided with him, thinking Daisy had gone overboard. I'm not saying that's a perfect fix, but if you were to tie it in with the Vox Sympathizers (say, bring them back into the story at that point, or work them in more throughout the whole story), it still sort of hits upon the whole 'extremes are bad' thing, but gives it a bit more nuance. And then Levine blows your brains out because that's not about Booker or Elizabeth. Edit: Nor does it tie back into Bioshock 1.
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Jun 20, 2017 08:10
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Arcsquad12 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z0S0Z8lUTg&t=945s Kreia kind of ruined Star Wars for me forever, in the best way. It doesn't hurt that Kreia is basically Ravel Puzzewell... in a very literal way apparently because Planescape is weird like that.
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Jun 20, 2017 08:11
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It really puts Luke's words in the last jedi trailer into perspective. As long as force users fight over opposing ideologies the rest of the galaxy will suffer in the name of restoring balance. But as much as Kreia's reasoning makes sense from a certain point of view she is not wholly correct and believing her at face value goes against her teachings. And that is the best part about The Sith Lords, it let's you tear down the foundations of star wars and fate, or refute Kreia's cynicism and choose for yourself how to engage with the franchise's philosophy. Avellone may soapbox about his issues with Star Wars but drat if he doesn't make it interesting and compelling while doing so.
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Jun 20, 2017 08:41
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I love this illustration of how game writing ends up being so bad - in game form! I love this a lot
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Jun 20, 2017 10:40
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I love this illustration of how game writing ends up being so bad - in game form! This is really good.
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Jun 20, 2017 15:24
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Deport The Irish posted:I already said the game is dumb, but actually you're dumb too. Hth. It's you thats the moron dude
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Jun 20, 2017 15:45
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Hbomberguy, try the FFV Four Job Fiesta and maje a video about it plz. /shameful begging
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Jun 20, 2017 17:55
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Arcsquad12 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z0S0Z8lUTg&t=945s I did roll my eyes a bit at him trying to do deep light saber color analysis. Dozens of Sith (and exclusively Sith) use purple sabers KotOR games, so calling it some commentary about Revan the nature of balance in the force is kinda reaching. The remaining 99.9% of the video is really good though. Definitely a good watch for anybody who was already a fan of KotOR2. It's a shame that the rest of the Old Republic properties did their best to ignore, retcon, or destroy everything interesting that happened in KotOR 2. Absurd Alhazred posted:I love this illustration of how game writing ends up being so bad - in game form! I swear this is drat near word-for-word of meetings I've been in.
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Jun 20, 2017 18:38
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The purple saber thing makes more sense in the context of when the game and the prequels were coming out before saturation removed any meaning from jedi/sith color coding, and it doesn't discount his other points about synthesis between two warring ideologies.
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Jun 20, 2017 19:03
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Arcsquad12 posted:The purple saber thing makes more sense in the context of when the game and the prequels were coming out before saturation removed any meaning from jedi/sith color coding, and it doesn't discount his other points about synthesis between two warring ideologies. It didn't even really work when the game first came out. In the first KotOR you already kill dozens of Sith who are running around with purple sabers. It was just a way to add more color variety to the endless stream generic nameless evildoers you cut down. But yeah, like I said, the remaining 99.9% of the video is really solid, Deep Lightsaber Color Analysis is just my personal bugbear. Any meaning beyond "Green/Blue is good, Red is evil" changes with whoever's doing the writing at the time. Trying to apply it across different Star Wars properties leads only to madness. That video also reminded me of how much more interesting Kreia's philosophy was than Jolee and the Grey Jedi as the "official" Force dissenters, who mostly existed as a way that you could have your mostly good character use dark side force powers. Jolee and friends still align with the Jedi Council in almost every single way, they just have a little bit more pragmatism about emotion and the use of force. Kreia turns her iisues instead to The Force itself and sees it as a tyrant. She also rightly recognizes that the rest of the galaxy doesn't buy into this whole dark side/light side bullshit and would prefer it if all the force users would gently caress off and not throw the galaxy into a giant multiple planet-destroying civil war every generation or so, which is supported by the people on Dantooine fearing and hating all force users, and G0-T0 simply trying to engineer an end to what he considers a destructive sectarian conflict.
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Jun 20, 2017 19:38
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Arcsquad12 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z0S0Z8lUTg&t=945s Did the guy's video get claimed for music or something? Why does it sound half muted.
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Jun 20, 2017 19:40
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Leal posted:Did the guy's video get claimed for music or something? Why does it sound half muted. His mic is kind of poo poo.
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Jun 20, 2017 19:45
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New Butt Order posted:It didn't even really work when the game first came out. In the first KotOR you already kill dozens of Sith who are running around with purple sabers. It was just a way to add more color variety to the endless stream generic nameless evildoers you cut down. But yeah, like I said, the remaining 99.9% of the video is really solid, Deep Lightsaber Color Analysis is just my personal bugbear. Any meaning beyond "Green/Blue is good, Red is evil" changes with whoever's doing the writing at the time. Trying to apply it across different Star Wars properties leads only to madness. Also, consider that in a universe where the Force exists, you have a random chance of developing superpowers which, if you don't keep your emotions on near-total lockdown, will turn you into a murderous megalomaniac. With superpowers. It's not hard to see why certain people might have an issue with that.
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Jun 20, 2017 20:46
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lol at spending 2 hrs talking about a goddamn star wars character
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Jun 20, 2017 20:47
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Tired Moritz posted:lol at spending 2 hrs talking about a goddamn star wars character People have talked longer than that about crap fantasy novel characters, if they want to analyze a neat character what's the matter.
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Jun 20, 2017 20:51
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Tired Moritz posted:lol at spending 2 hrs talking about a goddamn star wars character Obsidian are really good at writing game characters it turns out. 
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Jun 20, 2017 21:11
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Tired Moritz posted:lol at spending 2 hrs talking about a goddamn star wars character Hey, talking for two hours about the philosophical implications of The Force is no more stupid than writing an entire Shakespear play in Klingon.
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Jun 20, 2017 23:46
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MiddleOne posted:Obsidian are really good at writing game characters it turns out. Wait for my 3 hour video on Stan Marsh, bruh.
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Jun 20, 2017 23:52
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MiddleOne posted:Obsidian are really good at writing game characters it turns out. "We didn't have time to show all the good things about a society where raping women is legal."
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Jun 21, 2017 00:10
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If you're talking about the Legion or something, then it sounds like you're trying too hard to be dumb and inflammatory. There's a difference between "Woooah look at how great these evil guys are!" and "A society can be terrible and also come up with good/advanced things?" See: Most of history
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Jun 21, 2017 00:14
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Kay Kessler posted:"We didn't have time to show all the good things about a society where raping women is legal." Woah, now I'm REALLY glad I never played that South Park game
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Jun 21, 2017 00:15
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Kay Kessler posted:"We didn't have time to show all the good things about a society where raping women is legal."
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Jun 21, 2017 00:19
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Augus posted:the gently caress are you talking about I'm assuming they're getting on about Caesar's Legion, who are the main antagonist group in New Vegas and who I'm assuming someone lamented not being able to work more of their story and kind of viewpoint into the game as well, to give them some more depth past lore junk that makes it sound like they're still pretty lovely and ruled by a bad dude, but that they've also made pretty big parts of the wasteland a habitable and (Their own of course) law-abiding place. They're post-apocalypse wannabe romans, so slavers and all the other poo poo that also entails. I could be wrong, but people sure like to try and be reductive about New Vegas so I just took a guess.
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Jun 21, 2017 00:28
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Yeah a complaint I often see about NV is the lack of depth with Caesar's Legion, and I think it's even an admitted failing on the part of the developers, but honestly I feel it works. They're a lovely slaver society and them lacking any real moral depth is kind of a good thing, even if they do end up being comically edgy at times (wolf hat dude being a prime example of that).
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Jun 21, 2017 00:35
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If I recall correctly it was less that they were supposed to be given moral depth and more that it was supposed to be shown why normalish people would tolerate them further east. We are lacking the banal evil part of Caesar's Legion and only got the active evil part of it.
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Jun 21, 2017 00:39
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I really do like New Vegas (I'd rank it as my 2nd-favorite Fallout game), but the whole rape thing is a serious flaw that stands out among a sea of really good things. If they absolutely had to put in "raping women (and only women) is legal", they should probably get some women writers, or just get a woman's perspective. Bioware had a similar problem when they had two instances of writing a trans character, one with consultation and one without.
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Jun 21, 2017 00:41
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Genocyber posted:Yeah a complaint I often see about NV is the lack of depth with Caesar's Legion, and I think it's even an admitted failing on the part of the developers, but honestly I feel it works. They're a lovely slaver society and them lacking any real moral depth is kind of a good thing, even if they do end up being comically edgy at times (wolf hat dude being a prime example of that). Caesar's Legion is a lot funnier if you read it as a prescient critique of internet neoreactionaries
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Jun 21, 2017 01:01
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Terrible Opinions posted:If I recall correctly it was less that they were supposed to be given moral depth and more that it was supposed to be shown why normalish people would tolerate them further east. We are lacking the banal evil part of Caesar's Legion and only got the active evil part of it. There's a major in the NCR's army with dialog implying that Caesar's Legion is more lenient on homosexuality than the NCR's military is, which might have also been addressed had they been given more time to develop stuff. I mean Legion is horrible but it's also a terrible world with literal monsters wandering around so it becomes more understandable why in-universe people would be tempted by a strongman government.
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Jun 21, 2017 01:14
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I personally would love to see Fallout attempt to do Mad Max: Fury Road with the awkward animations and terrible script writing. I want to experience the moment a rape survivor stares dead ahead in the exact same stance as everyone else, while a terribly awkward voice actor tells me of her horrific experience while the game bugs out and she floats/slides into a minefield or something.
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Jun 21, 2017 03:13
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Oh boy, another piece of the Plate! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhmyIb5CF9s
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Jun 21, 2017 04:02
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Oh boy, another piece of the Plate! She's really pumping these out--can't wait for the next one on feminist film theory. I'm really enjoying these. They're extremely proficient in their presentation and make great use of editing and visuals, which I guess is useful for film education. You can even see a little residual RLM influence in how the quick jokes work, but with none of their pace-killing drag. Lindsay could become an incredible documentarian if she chose. I wonder how she knows about Cedar Point. I only learned about it when I went away to school in Wisconsin.
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Jun 21, 2017 04:33
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business hammocks posted:She's really pumping these out--can't wait for the next one on feminist film theory. I'm really enjoying these. They're extremely proficient in their presentation and make great use of editing and visuals, which I guess is useful for film education. You can even see a little residual RLM influence in how the quick jokes work, but with none of their pace-killing drag. Lindsay could become an incredible documentarian if she chose. She did win an award, you know...
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Jun 21, 2017 04:40
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Oh boy, another piece of the Plate! An odd point to focus on, I know--but I didn't realize people thought the ending of AI was saccharine. I always thought it was crushingly sad. I was also quite young so I barely knew who Spielberg was and I definitely didn't know who Kubrick was.
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Jun 21, 2017 08:17
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Kay Kessler posted:I really do like New Vegas (I'd rank it as my 2nd-favorite Fallout game), but the whole rape thing is a serious flaw that stands out among a sea of really good things. If they absolutely had to put in "raping women (and only women) is legal", they should probably get some women writers, or just get a woman's perspective. Bioware had a similar problem when they had two instances of writing a trans character, one with consultation and one without. You're a massive retard, m'lady.
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Jun 21, 2017 11:35
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I love this illustration of how game writing ends up being so bad - in game form! This is amazing! Tempted to share it around the office. But we make games, so probably a bad idea 
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Jun 21, 2017 11:53
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