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So it looks like the Volkswagen Bus might actually happen this time. http://jalopnik.com/holy-crap-volkswagen-will-build-that-new-microbus-1796226189 Sadly people seem to be getting their hopes up when we all know it will just another minivan. I'll bet money on yet another MQB variant and basically an Atlas with sliding doors. On a related note, any bets on when, if ever, the USA will see the Mercedes V-class now that the Metris is here?
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Jun 19, 2017 21:25
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KillHour posted:Because the alternator is on an accessory belt that can't bare the full power of a cold start. That only works well when the engine is already warmed up. And after doing some research, it looks like different manufacturers handle it differently - some use modified starters with two independent solenoids, some use the alternator (and can even use that same alternator to run things like the AC when the engine is off - there's a clutch that disconnects the belt from the drive), and Mazda has a crazy system where the alternator moves whichever cylinder is under compression into position and the engine then turns itself over with a little help from the starter. The Mazda system sometimes has to fall back to the normal starter - I notice this most when the engine switches off and I almost immediately put the clutch back in. About 99% of the time it works well but that other 1% is quite noticeable. A VW rental I had in Europe seemed to just use the normal starter all the time and was much more annoying.
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Jun 19, 2017 22:34
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The first time I experienced one of those systems was in a cab in Europe. It makes good sense, but it freaked me out at first even as the passenger. But if it saves fuel, precious fuel that can be used to make MOAR POWERRRR, then I'm 100% on board.
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Jun 20, 2017 01:17
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I wish I had a stop-start system for long lights. Does it make a real difference though? At idle is the engine really burning that much fuel? Seems like a good idea for the environment in aggregate, or on buses and trucks due to their larger displacement but maybe not on a personal-wallet level.
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Jun 20, 2017 03:45
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a primate posted:I wish I had a stop-start system for long lights. Does it make a real difference though? At idle is the engine really burning that much fuel? Seems like a good idea for the environment in aggregate, or on buses and trucks due to their larger displacement but maybe not on a personal-wallet level. It's mainly for gaming the EPA city cycle. Engines use very little fuel at idle, so shutting it down doesn't actually save much at a practical level. If it doesn't bother you, it's fine. It would drive me crazy, though, and I wouldn't buy a car with it if it couldn't be disabled.
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Jun 20, 2017 04:01
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Idling wastes a lot of gas and start stop is not factored into the EPA city cycle
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Jun 20, 2017 04:06
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BraveUlysses posted:Idling wastes a lot of gas and start stop is not factored into the EPA city cycle A compact car with a 2L engine burns about 0.16 gal/hr or 0.0027 gal/min at idle. That's about 2 teaspoons per minute. It costs you all of 0.4 cents.
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Jun 20, 2017 04:18
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KillHour posted:and Mazda has a crazy system where the alternator moves whichever cylinder is under compression into position and the engine then turns itself over with a little help from the starter. I'm sure their way is good but bedeviled by a faulty integral part.
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Jun 20, 2017 04:41
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Deteriorata posted:A compact car with a 2L engine burns about 0.16 gal/hr or 0.0027 gal/min at idle. That's about 2 teaspoons per minute. It costs you all of 0.4 cents. Gas in the US is cheap as hell, so it's not an especially useful metric to determine value. The reduction in carbon emissions is useful because every little bit helps. The systems can save somewhere between 3 and 10 percent in city driving depending on a number of factors. Even higher numbers are possible if you spend a lot of time idling, which is pretty common in areas with severe traffic problems.
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Jun 20, 2017 05:08
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big money big clit posted:Gas in the US is cheap as hell, so it's not an especially useful metric to determine value. The reduction in carbon emissions is useful because every little bit helps. The systems can save somewhere between 3 and 10 percent in city driving depending on a number of factors. Even higher numbers are possible if you spend a lot of time idling, which is pretty common in areas with severe traffic problems. https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/02/f8/idle-stop_light_duty_passenger_vehicles.pdf While it looks great on a dyno, real world driving showed no improvement with the idle stop system. In principle, it's fine. In reality, it makes little measurable difference and is just one more thing to break. Constant restarting is going to impact battery life, as well, which will offset some of the environmental benefits
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Jun 20, 2017 05:28
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This is kind of unrelated but you all just reminded me of it with start/stop talk. If you have an auto transmission is there any benefit to shifting into neutral at really long traffic lights? I never do it in my normal car but I do it sometimes in the Corvette because the rear view mirror tends to jiggle a lot when it's in gear and stopped, but always wondered if that saves any fuel at all since the car isn't trying to creep forward in gear. Also everyone is publishing reviews of the Nurburgring test day that Kia had for the Stinger GT which is getting me excited despite the weight. I just need Kia to write some sort of VW-esque code to completely game the EPA rating so I can justify the inevitably poo poo fuel economy to myself.
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Jun 20, 2017 05:54
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Stop/start is annoying in automatic cars but not annoying at all in manual cars since you're going to push the clutch in anyway before you can get going. It's less for the EPA test cycle and more to avoid the output of emissions in urban areas where pollutants already get heavily concentrated.
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Jun 20, 2017 05:56
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Last week I rented a Ford Escape that had the start/stop feature. And only an engine-driven A/C compressor. 
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Jun 20, 2017 05:59
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davebo posted:This is kind of unrelated but you all just reminded me of it with start/stop talk. If you have an auto transmission is there any benefit to shifting into neutral at really long traffic lights? I never do it in my normal car but I do it sometimes in the Corvette because the rear view mirror tends to jiggle a lot when it's in gear and stopped, but always wondered if that saves any fuel at all since the car isn't trying to creep forward in gear. Nope, no benefit due to the torque converter. I still do it sometimes to rest my leg. Actually in my Audi the manual says I can engage the electric parking brake in drive for that purpose, so that's what I do. It disengages when I tap the accelerator, a cool feature. Think you have bad rubber (motor mounts etc.) somewhere causing your Corvette vibration or has it always done that? I'm a huge fan of the Kia Stinger spirit (reasonably affordable, powerful and luxurious sedan) and would love to pick up a used one in 5 or so years. Unfortunately the adoption will be so low that used prices will probably be much higher than equivalent Audis/BMWs 5 years from now. Still no word on MSRP. I'm expecting it to be right in line with 35k A4 and 328i, perhaps a bit more. Michael Scott fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 06:19
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Michael Scott posted:Nope, no benefit due to the torque converter. I still do it sometimes to rest my leg. Actually in my Audi the manual says I can engage the electric parking brake in drive for that purpose, so that's what I do. It disengages when I tap the accelerator, a cool feature. Nah it's always done that. Not all the time but I guess sometimes it just idles a little heavier than other times. Maybe more often when the targa top is off? I dunno, I just assume that's 5.7L V8 problems I'm happy to endure. As for Stinger prices, I'd expect the 2.0T to start around 33k up to 40, then the GT to start like 43 and go to 50 with AWD? Looks like there's gonna be a lot included with the GT, then a $2k option for awd and another option with all the safety bits like lane assist. davebo fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 06:24
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Stop/start is annoying in automatic cars but not annoying at all in manual cars since you're going to push the clutch in anyway before you can get going. It's annoying if you have a really awesome engine idle, though.
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Jun 20, 2017 06:46
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Previa_fun posted:Last week I rented a Ford Escape that had the start/stop feature. And only an engine-driven A/C compressor. I had a Chevy Cruze loaner for a couple days that was the same. When the evaporator started to warm up, the engine would start back up, though. Would be a better feature in not-South-Florida. 
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Jun 20, 2017 10:43
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I just bought a '17 CX5 and it has this auto stop thing, kinda works like a hill assist but on an automatic. If it's turned on, when you come to a stop while in gear, it will keep the brake applied automatically until you hit the gas. Still not sure if I like it or not.
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Jun 20, 2017 11:30
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I had a BMW 1-series loaner for a little bit and it had the start-stop thing. It also had a button where you could turn it off. I was very thankful for that button.
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Jun 20, 2017 13:58
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I don't like them on principle. (For the right price I can offer other principles)
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Jun 20, 2017 14:10
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Stop/start is annoying in automatic cars but not annoying at all in manual cars since you're going to push the clutch in anyway before you can get going. I bet it's also to show regulators in California that they can do it themselves and to please not force it on us with new rules.
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Jun 20, 2017 14:14
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The main concern I have with start stop and engine longevity is oil pressure. If the engine's off and your oil pressure is zero, and it has to crank and get you moving in under a second, are you always going to have full oil pressure immediately? In any car I've driven with an oil pressure gauge, it can take a couple seconds to build up, even on a warm start.
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Jun 20, 2017 14:40
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Since you guys are bringing up the start stop stuff I just did a training module on toyotas system lots of blah blah stuff about when it will work and when it won't . The key thing I saw was it keeps track of how many times the starter is used including normal start ups. After 375,000 starts the system gets disabled . I can't wait for all the used car Co plants about it not working 
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Jun 20, 2017 14:49
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Torn Quad Jones posted:Since you guys are bringing up the start stop stuff I just did a training module on toyotas system lots of blah blah stuff about when it will work and when it won't . The key thing I saw was it keeps track of how many times the starter is used including normal start ups. After 375,000 starts the system gets disabled . I can't wait for all the used car Co plants about it not working What is the fix after 375k starts? That seems weird. example 50 starts per day = 7500 day lifetime = 20 year lifetime. Gonna be a while till you start seeing those complaints 
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Jun 20, 2017 14:55
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I wonder how much they've considered many drivers' complete inability to sit still at a red light.
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Jun 20, 2017 15:04
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Probably replace the starter and reprogram see thing is over here we see alot of our camrys and highlanders used as cabs ubers and taxis gonna e alot more that 50 a day . We see 2017 camrys with 25k on the clock already.
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Jun 20, 2017 15:30
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Whiz Palace posted:I wonder how much they've considered many drivers' complete inability to sit still at a red light. They'll have decent "hysteresis" programming. Like if you trigger it, wait 5s to shut off. If it kicks in again right after, wait 10s. I can't remember what I was renting that had it, but it rarely second guessed itself in creeping traffic.
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Jun 20, 2017 17:38
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Whiz Palace posted:I wonder how much they've considered many drivers' complete inability to sit still at a red light. At least in the BMWs I've been in, they are smart enough to not trigger the stop/start too soon after a previous stop/start. I think there's at least some logic as to when it gets triggered (oil temp, engine temp, oil pressure, etc). Sometimes it'll kick back on before you've taken your foot off the brake too. More Stinger GT chat: The Korean reviews have been fairly promising. They think it's the car for the dad who can't have the M3 / M4 due to cost and a Miata / FRS / BR-Z due to having a family. I'm struggling to think of other cheaper RWD sedans in the US market. All I can think of is the Charger?
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Jun 20, 2017 17:42
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I'd def get a stinger if I didn't have such a long drive over mountains so they know their target audience
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Jun 20, 2017 17:46
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kimcicle posted:More Stinger GT chat: The Korean reviews have been fairly promising. They think it's the car for the dad who can't have the M3 / M4 due to cost and a Miata / FRS / BR-Z due to having a family. I'm struggling to think of other cheaper RWD sedans in the US market. All I can think of is the Charger? Yeah, I'm very happy to hear that it sounds like it doesn't just look good and that it actually performs well. Both Motortrend (who generally give pretty positive reviews on Kia) and Car and driver (much less so) were very positive. It also sounds like the car will be even better on the street than at the track which is good. I'm really curious to see if an aftermarket actually springs up for this car and if Kia left much on the table with the engine.
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Jun 20, 2017 17:50
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kimbo305 posted:They'll have decent "hysteresis" programming. Like if you trigger it, wait 5s to shut off. If it kicks in again right after, wait 10s. I had a rented Malibu with it and I didn't feel trolled, but I also don't do stop-and-go traffic ever.
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Jun 20, 2017 17:54
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Stop/start is annoying in automatic cars but not annoying at all in manual cars since you're going to push the clutch in anyway before you can get going. This is my experience as well. The Polo I had in Spain was a 5-speed with auto start/stop, but it triggered on clutch-in so by the time I was actually on the gas and letting the clutch back out the engine was always ready to go. The automatics I've driven with start/stop are a lot more jarring since they have to react to the gas pedal being presssed, but at that point you want to go, not be in the lurch waiting for the engine to get going again. Even though it's less than a second it's really obnoxious.
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Jun 20, 2017 18:32
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Deteriorata posted:https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/02/f8/idle-stop_light_duty_passenger_vehicles.pdf Please read the section where they tested the Smart Car in rush hour traffic over a prescribed route, i.e. the closest approximation to what a regular commute would look like in a busy city (which Phoenix is not). Their standard test was 70% highway driving and on average only about 20% of the travel time was spent with the vehicle stopped, so of course it's not going to show a substantial improvement. " The Smart vehicle that was tested in the separate, prescribed-route test achieved a percent difference in FE values between IS enabled and disabled modes of 9.6% with A/C operating. When an attempt is made to analytically remove the A/C energy consumption, the FE improvement becomes 15.3%. " Edmunds likewise found the same thing in their testing: https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/features/do-stop-start-systems-really-save-fuel.html These systems are also dependent on how you drive (like most fuel economy boosting systems) so if you're constantly trying to close that two foot gap between you and the car in front of you every time traffic moves a little you will see less benefit. YOLOsubmarine fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 19:22
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BMW has a probably not well known SIB about programming auto start stop out on cars because a lot of the customers complained that they hated it
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Jun 20, 2017 22:25
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You can get a rough approximation of relative fuel consumption for different engine states just based on engine vacuum and speed. More vacuum or lower RPMs means (generally) lower fuel consumption. Torque converters are far from perfect, particularly older ones. But you can test it yourself easily rather than just doing the crusty-old-dude assumption.
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Jun 20, 2017 22:53
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Guinness posted:The automatics I've driven with start/stop are a lot more jarring since they have to react to the gas pedal being presssed, but at that point you want to go, not be in the lurch waiting for the engine to get going again. Even though it's less than a second it's really obnoxious. I rented a Chevy Cruz with it in Boston and it really hosed up my timing trying to pull out in traffic because of the delay. It was borderline dangerous until I finally got used to it and had to wait for longer breaks in traffic than i normally would otherwise. The feature sucks imo, no way I would own a car with it unless I could disable it.
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Jun 21, 2017 06:19
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kimbo305 posted:It's annoying if you have a really awesome engine idle, though. I think there is roughly no overlap between cars with S&S and an awesome idle. Maybe the Focus RS? Plus you can just turn it off.
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Jun 21, 2017 08:35
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Cocoa Crispies posted:I bet it's also to show regulators in California that they can do it themselves and to please not force it on us with new rules. do you mean EU regulators because it's certainly not a California thing
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Jun 21, 2017 08:39
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Applebees Appetizer posted:I rented a Chevy Cruz with it in Boston and it really hosed up my timing trying to pull out in traffic because of the delay. It was borderline dangerous until I finally got used to it and had to wait for longer breaks in traffic than i normally would otherwise. The feature sucks imo, no way I would own a car with it unless I could disable it. Sure but that's a Cruze which is known to be, well, a bit crap in all areas. I'd wager you wouldn't be so annoyed at the idea if you tried a car with a better system.
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Jun 21, 2017 09:26
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I think there is roughly no overlap between cars with S&S and an awesome idle. Maybe the Focus RS? Most Porsches have it but luckily it has a button and remembers the setting so you forget it even exists after a while.
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Jun 21, 2017 13:41
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