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I've played this game on a 6-year-old laptop for the entire time, and the performance issues some of you are complaining about seem way worse than anything I've experienced. Also from what I understand they've increased the Cyclops' speed across the board so that the mid-range speed is equivalent to the previous flank speed, and flanking speed is genuinely fast. You can use both while on silent running to get away quickly. Plus the shield effect now scares away predators that come into contact with it, like the Seamoth's personal defense grid. The main difference seems to be that now you pick a good parking place, turn off your engine, and go out to explore from there, rather than just parking any old place because you're in a god-ship that means you don't have to pay attention to or interact with your environment. The only change that actually upsets me is limiting you to one oxygen tank. Edit: From the Trello it looks like they're putting in a Thermal Reactor add-on for the Cyclops, which should mitigate issues with power leeches and make it genuinely useful for the lava zones. Paracelsus fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Jun 11, 2017 |
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Jun 11, 2017 00:04
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Paracelsus posted:I've played this game on a 6-year-old laptop for the entire time, and the performance issues some of you are complaining about seem way worse than anything I've experienced. See, stuff like that is still missing the point and glossing over a lot of conceptual problems. A lot of people like to go "But you go FASTER now, therefore not allowed to be mad!". When the problem is they still added in a brand new mechanic for the express purpose of lighting your submarine on fire. Which will start up the invisible spontaneous combustion meter after 20 seconds... But they justify Silent running now being a 30 second duration ability (even ignoring the two minute cooldown) with 'You can use it during flank speed now!"... But, again, now you risk catching on fire for doing that. So yes. It is entirely fair to say adding brand new mechanics with the express purpose of inflicting pain to the player, are questionable. More so, when they are attached to the very same thing people are saying you should be thankful for. "But you go FASTER now! Flank speed is faster!" "But I'll ignite if I use if for any meaningful amount of time." "But... But FASTER now!" New default speed is nice, but that also means just more likelihood of attracting nonstop aggro if you are not a blessed hyperbole existence player where all bonesharks run away from you, rather than at you. Particularly given one of the new "features" is... killing your engine and hoping they go away. Except they probably wont, because they talk up your restart time as a risk. People were crawling along at silent running 24/7 because even flank speed would just get you caught, after all. "You have more ways to set yourself on fire! Or just turn off your engines! That's fun right?" is why you are getting people who thought I was making poo poo up about the patch notes when I first linked the update, until reading said update to find that is indeed the case. Nah man, who cares about your old car. That one was slower. This one is FASTER! It also sets you on fire, but FASTER! Therefore must be better, you'd be crazy to complain or want back your old car that doesn't burst into flames on the freeway. EDIT: Are they seriously going to limit you one air tank now?  That's just reaching petty levels of "Nah man, it's not REALISTIC to have more than one air tank!... And gently caress you for bringing up real life scuba divers who bring multiple air supplies!"
Section Z fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Jun 11, 2017 |
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Jun 11, 2017 00:37
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Section Z posted:A lot of people like to go "But you go FASTER now, therefore not allowed to be mad!". When the problem is they still added in a brand new mechanic for the express purpose of lighting your submarine on fire. Word has it that the game also has several mechanics for the express purpose of causing the player character to die.
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Jun 11, 2017 01:09
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Paracelsus posted:Word has it that the game also has several mechanics for the express purpose of causing the player character to die. Will they kill me for using an expensive upgrade's features longer than 20 seconds?  ...Well, outside of eating too many fish and melons at once to induce barfing up blood. Well played!But seriously. What kind of a response is that? "Did you know, you can die in videogames?" I can die in Darksouls, but I'm pretty sure only incredibly wacky gimmick options can be used to inflict self harm beyond deliberately jumping off a cliff. Section Z fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Jun 11, 2017 |
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Jun 11, 2017 01:43
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Thor-Stryker posted:However if you're expecting them to optimize the game before it's feature complete, then you're in for a rude awakening on game development. As a game developer and software developer in general, anyone who waits until the game is feature complete to do optimization is never going to do enough optimization. Optimization is by necessity an ongoing process, or else you risk your problems become sunk so deeply into the architecture that you'll never address them.
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Jun 11, 2017 02:01
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I wouldn't care about the cyclops poo poo if the loving invisibility no-aggro cheat worked on it, but in their usual style fauna attacking the sub was half assed on that front too.
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Jun 11, 2017 02:04
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Section Z posted:Will they kill me for using an expensive upgrade's features longer than 20 seconds? Trade-offs and calculated risks are a central part of gameplay design. You can't have those if there aren't potential prices to pay. Have you never used Power Within in Dark Souls? It's one of the most important spells in the game, even if every once in a while it will get you killed. People used Iron Flesh even though it slowed you to a crawl and effectively turned off dodging, a central mechanic to the game. Also people frequently use the seppuku for move for the Bewitched Alonne Sword and the self-flagellation of the Rose of Ariandel. People use weapons that have special attacks that cost durability. Hell, speedrunners in DS1 used crystal weapons that have super-low durability and can't be repaired because the boost in attack power was worth it. Edit: I almost forgot the freaking Chaos Blade, which has been a beast in DS2/3 and one of the more common katanas seen in PvP. Have you never used a physical skill in SMT/Persona, which cost a percentage of your max HP? Have you never used Berserk mode (or self-destruct) in Neir:Automata? Tons of games have items and equipment that will boost some stat at the expense of others. Would you mind so much if flanking speed just shut down to normal speed after 20 sec? Paracelsus fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Jun 11, 2017 |
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Jun 11, 2017 02:30
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Paracelsus posted:Trade-offs and calculated risks are a central part of gameplay design. You can't have those if there aren't potential prices to pay. Yeah see, all of those examples are much more manageable, useful, And also importantly, VISIBLE. Power within I could honestly say has no real risk to my casual rear end unless I was already losing a fight so badly, I'd lose without it. And the detrimental effect was as clear as day in plain view as it progressed. Same deal with Iron flesh, which let me tank the poo poo out of Lautrec and his buddies despite it's "Risk" of being slowed down. Once more with the Chaos blade, letting you kill the poo poo out most of things MUCH faster than it hurt yourself. Risk Vs Reward is a phrase thrown around a lot, but the important thing is a significant enough reward to make it honestly worth it, rather than "Oh, we need a penalty because that's what people do I guess". Subnautica meanwhile, is... "If you drive fast, you will catch on fire! When? You don't know! We're hiding the meter of our brand new heat mechanic!" It's just lazy. So yes, it simply turning off after 20 seconds would be prefferable by comparison. Because then it's simply a limited usage turbo button. Not "We gave you a turbo button! But our playerbase will complain it's not hardcore unless it also has the capacity to punch you right in the ballsack for activating." Honest to god, part of my getting back into Darksouls of late is to take my mind off such obtuse bullshit difficulty for the sake of difficulty design in gaming. Souls games have their share of flaws, and are not nearly as perfectly "hard but fair" as people make them out to be. But drat if it isn't sad seeing the development of other games make me sit back, and wish for my blind first time experience of DS1 for how much more CONVENIENT that was despite my piles of stupid deaths. While others are busy namedropping  to excuse any and all faux difficulty, but if you bring up QoL that even the soul series has oh no. You're only allowed to ask for the parts from Darksouls that hurt more, not less. Critiquing Freedom Planet and suggesting it should have mercy invincibility like the oldschool Sonic the Hedgehog games did? Oh no, you just don't get Oldschool Sonic gameplay, for asking for mechanics right out of Sonic the Hedgehog. You want mining to be less poo poo in Elite dangerous? Those set and forget mining devices from the last Elite game you are asking for would NEVER appear in an Elite game! And so on.
Section Z fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jun 11, 2017 |
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Jun 11, 2017 02:55
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I just can't take any 'realistic' changes or mechanics seriously in a game where you can pop out of a sub at 1500m underwater wearing a wetsuit and be, like, totally fine. What I'm saying is, add realistic pressure for the player character, take this poo poo into the ground.
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Jun 11, 2017 03:38
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GlyphGryph posted:As a game developer and software developer in general, anyone who waits until the game is feature complete to do optimization is never going to do enough optimization. Optimization is by necessity an ongoing process, or else you risk your problems become sunk so deeply into the architecture that you'll never address them. Ah yes, the Star Citizen approach, let me know how that goes. But you are right, there is always the critical issue that could cripple the game. However, everyone complaining about the slide-show after 3-4 hours could easily be shortcut-fixed if they decide to, a lot of players are already doing so as needed by deleting and replacing specific files. Charlie and his team did this before with NS2, it ran like poo poo until near the end of development, and now its a pretty stable game. (Albeit, too hardcore gameplay for regular people.) The real problem is these small dev teams try to exist off of greenlight orders and people expect a fully functioning game, or buyers get burned because the dev team fails to ever take off, or the scope changes in some way that turns everyone off. My suggestion is: don't preorder, greenlight, or kickstart any game that isn't finished if you can't wait for it to be complete.
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Jun 11, 2017 03:39
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Thor-Stryker posted:Ah yes, the Star Citizen approach, let me know how that goes. What are you even saying? quote:But you are right, there is always the critical issue that could cripple the game. However, everyone complaining about the slide-show after 3-4 hours could easily be shortcut-fixed if they decide to, a lot of players are already doing so as needed by deleting and replacing specific files. The performance problems are not all specific to long-term saves. The game's streaming speed is poo poo in general and easily the worst I have ever experienced, in both complete and incomplete games.
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Jun 11, 2017 05:00
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That's some serious hyperbole because i play on a 6 year old cpu IN VR with an entry level VR card which is below recommended specs and do just fine. I think i did the clear cache thing once at hour 15
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Jun 11, 2017 19:38
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Bhodi posted:That's some serious hyperbole because i play on a 6 year old cpu IN VR with an entry level VR card which is below recommended specs and do just fine. I think i did the clear cache thing once at hour 15 I'm curious, do you run the game off an SSD?
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Jun 11, 2017 19:46
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Thor-Stryker posted:Charlie and his team did this before with NS2, it ran like poo poo until near the end of development, and now its a pretty stable game. (Albeit, too hardcore gameplay for regular people.) And because he waited so long to actually optimize it, it now has the permanent mind in the collective consciousness of "Unplayable laggy garbage" with an average of 200 players, or f2p battleborn numbers. http://steamcharts.com/app/4920
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Jun 11, 2017 19:50
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Bhodi posted:That's some serious hyperbole because i play on a 6 year old cpu IN VR with an entry level VR card which is below recommended specs and do just fine. I think i did the clear cache thing once at hour 15 The bottleneck isn't in the graphics card or really the CPU though.
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Jun 11, 2017 19:52
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Bhodi posted:That's some serious hyperbole because i play on a 6 year old cpu IN VR with an entry level VR card which is below recommended specs and do just fine. I think i did the clear cache thing once at hour 15 It's not hypoerbole at all if it is my actual experience with it. It feels like anytime the game has to do a disk read, the entire thing blocks until it's done.
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Jun 11, 2017 19:59
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Digirat posted:It's not hypoerbole at all if it is my actual experience with it. It feels like anytime the game has to do a disk read, the entire thing blocks until it's done. It feels like IO jitter, it appears like IO jitter, it has a performance graph like IO jitter - it's IO jitter. The right answer is to pre-cache reads, but I wonder how well Unity does with that. It might have to do with the rich 3D Subnautica has - most games have content along one plane.
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Jun 11, 2017 20:05
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endlessmonotony posted:It feels like IO jitter, it appears like IO jitter, it has a performance graph like IO jitter - it's IO jitter. Also, IO jitter isn't because your device is too slow, it's because the game requests it to do a massive chunk at once and waits until that's done. A faster device causes less jitter, but storage technology capable of dealing with this poo poo without lag is over $10 per gigabyte for now. The answer is to predict where the player is going and having that area be there before it needs to be rendered. But most games are along a relatively flat surface, like, say, the ground. Subnautica is underwater, so there's a whole extra dimension to worry about. There's ways to deal with it in REAL ENGINES and probably Unity too. Noticeable symptoms of this happening would be Subnautica being slow to respond to controls when moving fast and "lagging" and also the view distances being poo poo. Oh wait.
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Jun 11, 2017 20:11
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Away all Goats posted:I'm curious, do you run the game off an SSD?
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Jun 11, 2017 20:58
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Bhodi posted:That's some serious hyperbole because i play on a 6 year old cpu IN VR with an entry level VR card which is below recommended specs and do just fine. I think i did the clear cache thing once at hour 15 Whatever the issue is in my case it becomes more noticeable the more power i throw at it. So a cpu and graphics upgrade made it worse for me.
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Jun 12, 2017 01:31
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DogonCrook posted:Whatever the issue is in my case it becomes more noticeable the more power i throw at it. So a cpu and graphics upgrade made it worse for me. Mostly the same. Also if "LOL just use an SSD!" were the standard game programming should be held to, they would be listed in recommended requirements rather than passing forums posts every time people seem to bring that up like it's an acceptable workaround
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Jun 12, 2017 01:44
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Turtlicious posted:And because he waited so long to actually optimize it, it now has the permanent mind in the collective consciousness of "Unplayable laggy garbage" with an average of 200 players, or f2p battleborn numbers. And with that statement, the joke is on us for apparently buying into another one of his games.  I for one, enjoyed it on release day, back in 2012. But apparently, everyone expects Counter-Strike numbers for a five-year-old game that was aimed at a niche fanbase.
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Jun 12, 2017 02:22
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Thor-Stryker posted:And with that statement, the joke is on us for apparently buying into another one of his games. I did too, and would play a natural selection 3, but let's not pretend this is a good strategy, plenty of Early Access games do optimization passes in the middle of development, and it's almost always a good thing.
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Jun 12, 2017 02:29
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DogonCrook posted:Whatever the issue is in my case it becomes more noticeable the more power i throw at it. So a cpu and graphics upgrade made it worse for me. the daikatana paradox
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Jun 12, 2017 02:30
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Turtlicious posted:I did too, and would play a natural selection 3, but let's not pretend this is a good strategy, plenty of Early Access games do optimization passes in the middle of development, and it's almost always a good thing. I just don't know if it would have worked for them as such a small team. The game design already radically changed from before, we were going to have procedurally generated biomes before they decided to hand-craft everything. Imagine if they tried to optimize during that stage instead of near the end of production, they would have lost hundreds of hours of work. It makes me wonder if something similar happened in the development of NS2, how much work and optimization was lost due to the move from Source to Spark. It was about fourish years before the switch was made.
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Jun 12, 2017 02:38
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Thor-Stryker posted:Ah yes, the Star Citizen approach, let me know how that goes. Star Citizen does not have a problem with premature optimization. It has a hell of a lot of problems, but doing ongoing optimization runs is absolutely not one of them. Thor-Stryker posted:I just don't know if it would have worked for them as such a small team. The game design already radically changed from before, we were going to have procedurally generated biomes before they decided to hand-craft everything. Imagine if they tried to optimize during that stage instead of near the end of production, they would have lost hundreds of hours of work. You really just... don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about, do you? Yeesh.
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Jun 12, 2017 02:59
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From what (little) I understand optimizing is like tidying your house. If you don't do it every now and and then, eventually you've got mountains of garbage everywhere and trying to remove anything is likely to bury you under a landslide of crap.
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Jun 12, 2017 11:32
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SC also suffers from slide show fps and wants to be an mmo but can't handle a dozen people in an instance so yeah it's not exactly an example of a game spending too much time on performance and optimization.
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Jun 12, 2017 11:57
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Wants to be an MMO?
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Jun 15, 2017 14:18
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She/he meant Star Citizen, not SubNautica.
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Jun 15, 2017 14:43
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Latest Hicks in space https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M6BETexAZ0 I honestly wonder how many others didn't realize you could fix the Aurora's reactor until fairly late? I know I didn't.
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Jun 18, 2017 17:20
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Bhodi posted:That's some serious hyperbole because i play on a 6 year old cpu IN VR with an entry level VR card which is below recommended specs and do just fine. I think i did the clear cache thing once at hour 15 The thing about more insidious performance problems (and problems in general) is that they don't tend to manifest universally. A good example of this is Dishonored 2, whose reputation is all but tarnished by its bizarre and uneven performance issues and a vocal minority shouting, "Well I run it on a potato just fine, there's no problem!" If you run it on a POS computer without an issues, that's very interesting and might be relevant to fixing the problem, but it isn't indicative of the absence of a problem (or an exaggeration of what the problem is). For instance, I've got a GTX 1080 and an i5 6600k @4.4ghz, and the last time I ran the game on a Samsung 850 m.2 SSD the game ran quite poorly--enough for me to uninstall the game and dismiss it to the EA drawer for another few months. From what it sounds like, my PC would probably trounce your PC in most other applications...so the question is, what is going on here that is causing these issues?
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Jun 18, 2017 18:38
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:The thing about more insidious performance problems (and problems in general) is that they don't tend to manifest universally. A good example of this is Dishonored 2, whose reputation is all but tarnished by its bizarre and uneven performance issues and a vocal minority shouting, "Well I run it on a potato just fine, there's no problem!" You have also have to remember what some people consider "fine" might be 5-10 FPS and intermittent but not constant crashing because they are used to it. I played WoT's at 10-15fps on my potato and thought it was fine before I finally upgraded. It goes the other way as well, some people think a game is unplayable if it doesn't run at >= 60fps.
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Jun 19, 2017 04:45
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDmbZu1dWso Example of the biggest performance problem (pop in) and also something really awesome happening.
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Jun 20, 2017 15:28
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Thor-Stryker posted:It makes me wonder if something similar happened in the development of NS2, how much work and optimization was lost due to the move from Source to Spark. It was about fourish years before the switch was made. Pretty sure Charlie (Flayra)/Max did a postmortem a bit after NS2 was released on a site like gamasutra or something and they straight up admitted that rolling their own engine was probably a mistake. The also pointed out that when they started NS2 development, nothing like kickstarter existed and the glut of engines you could use was no where near what it is now. There was no Unity, Cryengine was still in it's infancy, and Unreal still cost lots of $$$. There weren't exactly a lot of engines out there, so the decision to roll their own makes a lot more sense in that context.
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Jun 20, 2017 15:42
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So on a whim I started a fresh creative mode game intent on testing a couple frivolous things. Guess what was already spawncamping literally as soon as I started a brand new game  "Just use your knife bro, I'm hardcore like that for bringing up the knife" You don't spawn with a knife. Gotta work your way up to a knife after being greeted by poison gas first thin entering the water.
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Jun 20, 2017 16:59
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I've had a spawn there. It's a very good motivator to get a base up and running or making a grav gun and shooting those bastards asap.
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Jun 20, 2017 17:10
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Ok, there is a marvelous amount of things to be upset about in subnautica (and a great amount to love too); aaand you decide to be upset at the manatees? Because they fart? Mister, just swim away a bit. The manatees will calm down.
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Jun 20, 2017 17:30
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GlyphGryph posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDmbZu1dWso That's hilarious.
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Jun 20, 2017 17:37
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:Ok, there is a marvelous amount of things to be upset about in subnautica (and a great amount to love too); aaand you decide to be upset at the manatees? Because they fart? Rather than hanging around and flipping the gently caress out again when you eventually return because that's the only fabricator you start out with.Nah man, just abandon your lifepod entirely rather than disturb those poor, innocent creatures who only want to put a dent in your hunger bar for the mean and nasty act of using the hatch on your lifepod. Section Z fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 17:39
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