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Artum posted:Its dumb that they dropped intercessors from 120pts to 100pts but kept them at 6 power. Is this referring to the difference in points from the Index book to the small books included with Dark Imperium?
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Jun 21, 2017 21:44
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GreenMarine posted:The PL system isn't for people who want to squeeze the most out of their list. If you say "now I have to max this unit out to get the most bang per PL" you should be using points. PL is for "lets play some warhammer and drink some beers and have fun and not sweat the list building details too much" type of dudes. And for players who just aren't that good at warhammer, whose play isn't squeezing out the most per turn, or who like to charge their world eaters across the acid slime because that's what they would do in real life...PL seems fine. The idea of just being able to just run everything WYSIWYG without having to worry about how much a flamer vs a plasma rifle costs is a very appealing one. My lists are already constrained by how my stuff is modeled so PP seems like it could be a good fit for me sometimes.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:45
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GreenMarine posted:The PL system isn't for people who want to squeeze the most out of their list. If you say "now I have to max this unit out to get the most bang per PL" you should be using points. PL is for "lets play some warhammer and drink some beers and have fun and not sweat the list building details too much" type of dudes. And for players who just aren't that good at warhammer, whose play isn't squeezing out the most per turn, or who like to charge their world eaters across the acid slime because that's what they would do in real life...PL seems fine. I think the issue is that PL costs for a unit generally appear to be set by looking at a unit with all of the most powerful upgrades added. So units with a lot of upgrades cost a lot more PL whether you take them bare bones, middle of the road, or slap every available thing on them. Depending on what units you take you can end up with two armies of vastly different strength even if both players were just building fun lists and not trying to be powerful.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:46
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chutche2 posted:You hit on a 4+ against flyers if the hydra moves, or shooting a hard to hit flyer. Oh yeah I forgot about certain flyers having a natural -1 to hit.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:48
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my kinda ape posted:When would you be hitting on 4+ with a hydra? When shooting at a Dakkajet? The Hydra has a BS of 4+, +1 to hit Flyers, -1 to hit the Dakkajet because of Hard to Hit.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:48
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TwingeCrag posted:Stormboyz are literally manned anti-aircraft rockets now. This timeline is getting better Plus they don't have the -1 to hit because Hard to Hit only applies to the Shooting phase. Safety Factor posted:Yeah, that's pretty much my complaint too. I've always been more inclined to take more models over upgrading what I have. Power doesn't work for me and while it may work fine for units like tactical squads who get minimal upgrades, others like Death Company, Vanguard, Sternguard, Nobs, etc. can break the system pretty easily. It's very imprecise and the difference between points and power can be quite huge. You can almost get three basic carnifexes for the price of one haruspex in points while in power you can only get two. It's a cool system for things that are quick and fun, but I really don't expect to see it outside of fast and casual games. Plus it means having to modify my tanks rather significantly.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:49
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Pendent posted:The idea of just being able to just run everything WYSIWYG without having to worry about how much a flamer vs a plasma rifle costs is a very appealing one. My lists are already constrained by how my stuff is modeled so PP seems like it could be a good fit for me sometimes. This is p much what they're for, and a fine way to play imo. I don't want to constantly skip over taking dude X because he's the one with the power axe and that's 5 points more than this other weapon, etc. People were quick to condemn power as "GW giving up on balance" but I've always seen it as a good compromise for players who aren't interested in debating the value of 9-man vs 10-man squads and just want to bring the armies they built. If you care about a plasma gun costing more than a flamer, they aren't for you and that's fine. Beer4TheBeerGod posted:It's a cool system for things that are quick and fun, but I really don't expect to see it outside of fast and casual games. Plus it means having to modify my tanks rather significantly. It actually doesn't
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Jun 21, 2017 21:55
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panascope posted:Also man power levels are a lot cooler than points This, unironically GreenMarine posted:The PL system isn't for people who want to squeeze the most out of their list. If you say "now I have to max this unit out to get the most bang per PL" you should be using points. PL is for "lets play some warhammer and drink some beers and have fun and not sweat the list building details too much" type of dudes. And for players who just aren't that good at warhammer, whose play isn't squeezing out the most per turn, or who like to charge their world eaters across the acid slime because that's what they would do in real life...PL seems fine. that me I played a 113 PL game on Saturday, and when we went back later and compared points values, I think we had about a 200 point discrepancy, with me being over. That being said, he had a lot of understrength units (he fields Chaos Marines in their holy numbers) and I had a lot of characters loaded up with dumb stuff like power fists that I wouldn't take in a normal game. He still won, but only just.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:11
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Sure. And then we have a nob unit where the point cost for a maxxed out unit, and a minned out unit is something like 640.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:16
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Zuul the Cat posted:Is this referring to the difference in points from the Index book to the small books included with Dark Imperium? I was taking the index having priority over dark imperium.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:19
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Look if you're worried about getting the most out of units when you do a PL game, then they're not for you. And that is totally fine But if you built your army 3 editions ago and don't want to break off anyone's arms to kit your unit out to proper 8th edition build specs so you can have the most efficient army, then hey maybe consider PLs
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Jun 21, 2017 22:20
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GreenMarine posted:The PL system isn't for people who want to squeeze the most out of their list. If you say "now I have to max this unit out to get the most bang per PL" you should be using points. PL is for "lets play some warhammer and drink some beers and have fun and not sweat the list building details too much" type of dudes. And for players who just aren't that good at warhammer, whose play isn't squeezing out the most per turn, or who like to charge their world eaters across the acid slime because that's what they would do in real life...PL seems fine. Now, I'll admit, it's partially because it's different from what I'm used to. I've been into 40k since I was a kid and if I could build a list without a calculator when I was 12, I can certainly do so now. I only plan on using Power to teach new players. Beyond that, it's always going to be points for me. I'm an engineer; I like granularity.  I have a feeling that if GW hadn't completely hosed the layout on points, this topic wouldn't be such a big deal. Making a list by hand out of an index is a goddamned chore. Like I said earlier, I wrote everything in for my Dark Angels and Tyranids and I'm much happier with the indices now. It's nice to simply have the context provided by points when you're looking at a unit entry and list building is as fast as it ever was. I hope the eventual codices are organized better, but I'm not counting on it, at least not initially. I guess I can keep fixing it for myself. TheChirurgeon posted:Look if you're worried about getting the most out of units when you do a PL game, then they're not for you. And that is totally fine
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Jun 21, 2017 22:26
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I'm new to 40k. One thing I don't get about the points vs per argument: why do people start from the axiom that point values are correct? Has there ever been a minutures game where the point values aren't just pulled out of some guys rear end? Why not just try both and see how the games are, then make a decision based on that? It's completely possible that point values are off and that power is a more accurate representation of in game effectiveness. Even if power is less accurate overall, it's still possible it could be a better system, even for competitive play. It may enable a metagame with a larger pool of models that are competive, more competive factions, or better match play as a result of less games being predecided due to more models having more options to counter extreme niche builds.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:30
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Safety Factor posted:I see this argument the other way. People might be popping off chainsword arms to slap on See, if someone's trying to game the PL system like that, PL isn't the system for them.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:35
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Safety Factor posted:I see this argument the other way. People might be popping off chainsword arms to slap on Yeah but again, PLs aren't for the people thinking about getting the most "free" points value out of them. Most of the time 40k has rewarded players for taking cheaper or more efficient choices. If you took anything but grav cannons in 7th edition on your devastators, you were wasting your time PLs are for people who built heavy bolter devastators, because those look cool as gently caress
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Jun 21, 2017 22:40
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I built heavy bolter devastators though, and wouldn't use them in PL, they're at a big disadvantage. 7 PL for 4 heavy bolters? But I use them frequently in a points match. On the other hand, something like tac marines where it's a difference of 18 points between the cheapest and most expensive heavy weapon choice for a single one of them, I don't give a poo poo. I'll just give them whatever. Heavy bolter vs grav devastators is a 72 point difference though for 4. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 22:43
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chutche2 posted:I built heavy bolter devastators though, and wouldn't use them in PL, they're at a big disadvantage. 7 PL for 4 heavy bolters? If grav cannons and missile launchers didn't exist, I'd actually be OK with Heavy bolters costing the same as Lascannons because they fill such different roles. Ideally, that's how most weapon choices would be balanced but instead here we are but also the good news about PLs is, if you're worried about not getting the full advantage of your army based on PLs, you can just not play with them e: On the other hand, if you're a rad dude who is OK with maybe having fewer points than your opponent sometimes and more other times but you know no one's trying to gently caress each other over, then maybe give PLs a shot TheChirurgeon fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 22:47
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The Sex Cannon posted:I used one the other day against Beer4theBeerGod. 8 shots, hitting on 4's with S7 and -1 AP vs. a T6 4+ translated to 2 wounds. Largely ineffective, especially for 123 points. Though, its heavy bolter may have stripped a wound off of a battlewagon, which is kinda cool. I was speaking more to using them again Jump Infantry like Assault Marines and Crisis Suits. Against their intended prey, sure not amazing. But putting those 8 shots into a unit of Fun loving Ork Stormboiz. 
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Jun 21, 2017 22:55
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TheChirurgeon posted:Look if you're worried about getting the most out of units when you do a PL game, then they're not for you. And that is totally fine Its more that I don't have a choice since my LGS just uses power and I'm mildly miffed that its quite so inconsistent with the primaris units.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:56
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TheChirurgeon posted:
Right, like I said I think PL is good overall. There's just some unfortunate combinations with it that means certain things just aren't going to see play. You're still using a points system, even if it's 100 points instead of 2000 points. And if using a point system some things might be better than others. I don't care if there's a variance between the list that would be a few hundred points. You have the option of doing open play with no points, instead you are choosing to use a point system which is less granular but is still supposed to result in two equivalent power lists. But they seem kinda arbitrary about how they apply it. Add jump packs to a vanguard squad, and the 20 points you spend on that becomes +1 power. Equip that same vanguard squad with bolt pistols and chainswords instead of thunder hammers and stormshields, and that 125 point difference doesn't change anything. In this case, if you break down the point values it's assuming you're spending 12 points per model on upgrades, with the actual maximum being 28 and the minimum being 0. Or with devastators. 7 PL, ignoring what random combi or whatever you probably won't give the sergeant and assuming you take a cherub that's 70 points of heavy weapons between 4 models, with the actual cost being between 40 and 112 points of heavy weapons. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 22:57
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I feel like the "PL isn't for them" argument is a tautology because it seems to entirely exist in us trying to say that. The huge decrease in granularity and uptick in free options means that Power Level benefits power gamers who liberally slather on all the most expensive options, but hamper the player who builds more conservatively. We can say PL isn't for powergamers as much as we want, but that isn't going to stop people from gaming the far easier to game system.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:02
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I wonder if there's a version of AoS Skirmish in the works for 8th, because I'd be all over that
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Jun 21, 2017 23:10
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The Bee posted:I feel like the "PL isn't for them" argument is a tautology because it seems to entirely exist in us trying to say that. The huge decrease in granularity and uptick in free options means that Power Level benefits power gamers who liberally slather on all the most expensive options, but hamper the player who builds more conservatively. We can say PL isn't for powergamers as much as we want, but that isn't going to stop people from gaming the far easier to game system. The solution to playing with a power gamer is simply to use points though. It's always been a good idea to have some sort of conversation with your opponent before the game to figure out what sort of game you're both looking for and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I personally don't intend to use PP for anything other than friendly games.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:12
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I mean yeah we're falling into the AoS-era "just don't play with waac-ers" line but points are there more or less for that exact reason.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:12
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The Bee posted:I feel like the "PL isn't for them" argument is a tautology because it seems to entirely exist in us trying to say that. The huge decrease in granularity and uptick in free options means that Power Level benefits power gamers who liberally slather on all the most expensive options, but hamper the player who builds more conservatively. We can say PL isn't for powergamers as much as we want, but that isn't going to stop people from gaming the far easier to game system. Yeah. If we know anything it's that hams are gonna ham. But a big counter to that is that if someone plays a list like that, where they're purposely tying to place a completely overpowered list in a friendly match, you just don't play against them again. Even in friendly matches people can be absolute dicks. That was talked about that in the Badcast episode with the terrible 30k Friendly experience. (Sorry guys, I can't remember if that was SRM or The Sex Cannon that played that match). Also, for PL are you guys not taking the available upgrades? I ran a game of 8th the other day with my Skitarii and gave my vanguard 3 Plasma Calivers. Was I not supposed to?
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Jun 21, 2017 23:13
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TheChirurgeon posted:Yeah but again, PLs aren't for the people thinking about getting the most "free" points value out of them.  I never bought any because my marines are mostly from 3rd/4th edition.I'll be honest, man, I know what you're trying to get at, but the "Power is for cool dudes who don't care about balanced games like some kind of grognard" blanket statements are really lame. People can play with what they like; I've been trying to frame my posts as my own personal preference, not an absolute. I just see more loopholes and the possibility for abuse with Power and that's why I'll be avoiding it. It's not that I expect my friends to build lists like that, but I don't like that the option is there. I think it serves its purpose as a simpler system to ease new players into the game and with the right crowd it is probably fine. That doesn't change the fact that it doesn't account for everything. If taking a powerfist, for example, added 1 power to a unit, I'd be more open to it. It's not for me and that is all I have been trying to get at. 
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Jun 21, 2017 23:17
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Safety Factor posted:I have a bunch of heavy bolter devastators and I don't have a single grav weapon in my army. Yeah, like. They could make a tac squad cost 4 points base. Then be like "+1 PL if a squad of 10 takes both a special and heavy weapon, +1 PL if taking a power fist or thunder hammer", poo poo like that. The end result would be that a squad with a special and heavy costs the same 9 PL it does now, or 10 with that plus a power fist, but only 8 if running a 10 man squad with just a plasmagun or whatever.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:20
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chutche2 posted:Yeah, like. They could make a tac squad cost 4 points base. Then be like "+1 PL if a squad of 10 takes both a special and heavy weapon, +1 PL if taking a power fist or thunder hammer", poo poo like that. This is too complicated. If you do it this way then you might as well just do points.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:22
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TheChirurgeon posted:Yeah but again, PLs aren't for the people thinking about getting the most "free" points value out of them. This discussion has given me the revelation that I could actually take a regimental or platoon standard in an IG command squad and not have my sanity questioned.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:24
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Endman posted:I wonder if there's a version of AoS Skirmish in the works for 8th, because I'd be all over that Wasn't that Kill Team?
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Jun 21, 2017 23:26
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Zuul the Cat posted:This is too complicated. If you do it this way then you might as well just do points. The current PL system already has things like adding jump packs for +1 PL and adding a servo harness for +1 PL.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:26
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Cutedge posted:Wasn't that Kill Team? Kill Team but with a cool campaign and a little extra thought put in But yes I'd settle for just 8th Kill Team
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Jun 21, 2017 23:29
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Acebuckeye13 posted:This discussion has given me the revelation that I could actually take a regimental or platoon standard in an IG command squad and not have my sanity questioned. I question the sanity of anyone playing IG and NOT taking as many standards as they can. Standard bearers, especially IG standard bearers, absolutely invoke Rule of Cool.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:29
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Acebuckeye13 posted:This discussion has given me the revelation that I could actually take a regimental or platoon standard in an IG command squad and not have my sanity questioned.  Standards are awesome and they're only 5 points.Endman posted:Kill Team but with a cool campaign and a little extra thought put in More complicated though, given it's basically a Necromunda reskin with a simpler campaign system.I actually played in a 6-game narrative event recently. It was centered around a murder mystery and was a lot of fun. I still want to do a write-up of it because it was fairly unique and my Catachans did pretty well. Won 4/6 of my games and only one was a bad loss. Safety Factor fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 23:32
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Safety Factor posted:Shadow War Armageddon is cool and good. I like Shadow War a lot, but there's no dedicated Deathwatch list; they can only be special operatives for Inquisition or SM Scouts. 
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Jun 21, 2017 23:40
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Thinking about it though, I think PL is a better idea of how powerful your stuff actually is, even if it's not completely balanced. Is giving a tactical marine sergeant a powerfist actually worth an additional 1% of your army's total points? It's certainly not as good as giving one to a veteran or a captain, but they cost the same under points. With PL though you're better able to bake that cost into the veteran I feel. I think they both work in their own way for doing different things. It's just unfortunate that PL does leave some builds out in the cold.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:43
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thesurlyspringKAA posted:Termagants are equally good at shooting as Crisis suits. Even better if there's more than 20 in the unit. I said my game would let you forge your narrative; I never said it'd be something that made sense. *scarecrow voice*
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Jun 22, 2017 00:00
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Is there a reason why vanilla marines can do the combat squads thing while the Chaos marines (who generally have no loving organization to speak of) are somehow unable to split up into five-man squads
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Jun 22, 2017 00:06
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Safety Factor posted:Is there some reason why you wouldn't? Are they only five points now? I haven't been keeping up with the changes and obviously at the 15 points they used to be they were effectively hot garbage
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Jun 22, 2017 00:07
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goose willis posted:Is there a reason why vanilla marines can do the combat squads thing while the Chaos marines (who generally have no loving organization to speak of) are somehow unable to split up into five-man squads If they don't have an aspiring champion to corral them, the 5 by themselves will gently caress off and raid some civilians.
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Jun 22, 2017 00:12
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