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cis autodrag posted:I'm not necessarily supporting any theory (although this is a good one), I'm just surprised by someone being so adamant about "it's rape and nothing else and you're all wrong, I know because I've seen a lot of raping on TV in my day and I know a rape victim when I see one." Throwing my own two cents into the fire, I think Lynch and Frost beating around the bush about it is very unlike them because sexual assault is one of the few things the series has been very blunt about (because it's a scary enough reality on its own, no mystery needed). So either they've changed their tune about how they present it in the time since the previous show, or it's not the explanation. If they have done so then it's fine, we'll just be left to wonder for a few more episodes, no poo poo-flinging necessary. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 20:40
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It just occurred to me that not only is Bob acting as an evil Coop, Coop is acting as a good Bob. He's currently the agent for the red room that is helping Mike and the Arm get their garmonbozia.
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Jun 21, 2017 20:42
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Escobarbarian posted:Hahah what?? My posts were entirely a response to "obviously it isn't rape he must have just said something mean to her everyone who thinks it was rape is a creep drat creepy idiot goons!!!!!!" nobody said that though? one person said that reddit jumped straight into hundreds of pages of rapechat and it made them sad, then another person started talking about it here and the response was "we can't really know for sure without more info from the show, let's wait and see what else happens." you seem to be the only one who's having a disproportionate reaction. you are very mad that people don't want to assume rape happened. that is in fact pretty creepy.
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Jun 21, 2017 20:47
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Escobarbarian posted:Hahah what?? My posts were entirely a response to "obviously it isn't rape he must have just said something mean to her everyone who thinks it was rape is a creep drat creepy idiot goons!!!!!!" I would counter that it's possible to respond to such posts in a mature way instead of sinking to their level if that's really how you interpret them, but you are choosing not to because it's easier to point and say 'ha ha look at THAT guy'. If you want a conducive discussion maybe let's try not doing that?
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Jun 21, 2017 20:56
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I think yes, no, not-yes and not-no have been getting mixed up.
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Jun 21, 2017 20:57
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Escobarbarian posted:Hahah what?? My posts were entirely a response to "obviously it isn't rape he must have just said something mean to her everyone who thinks it was rape is a creep drat creepy idiot goons!!!!!!" Same here. Also, I've been pretty forthcoming about other peoples theories or ideas, like LawfulWaffle and Basebf555, and try to acknowledge I'm probably wrong, but it's the logic I'm working with. It's the people that unironically are saying "Naw, it can't be rape, Laura Dern's a nice person" or "David Lynch wouldn't put rape in Twin Peaks" or "She's obviously mad at Coop for something he did years before the first episode of Twin Peaks" because it's like they're not even watching the show or have seen a David Lynch film. Like, I don't think sexual assault is the only interpretation at all, it just contextually seems that way. Even if it isn't sexual assault, the fact that this episode was intentionally vague about it is supposed to give the viewer doubt and anxiety over the possibility. This thread's talked about a lot of things, and leaving the Diane/Bad Coop "that one night" a mystery right now has contributed to more discussion than a woman with no eyes who sounds like a skipping record and Amanda Seyfried snorting a drug or Balthazar Getty's finger guns magic. Or, like, who Andy's dealing with and what happened there. CJacobs posted:Throwing my own two cents into the fire, I think Lynch and Frost beating around the bush about it is very unlike them because sexual assault is one of the few things the series has been very blunt about (because it's a scary enough reality on its own, no mystery needed). So either they've changed their tune about how they present it in the time since the previous show, or it's not the explanation. If they have done so then it's fine, we'll just be left to wonder for a few more episodes, no poo poo-flinging necessary. Well, they've dealt with it in various ways throughout their work and Twin Peaks. It's never really explored the trauma that occurs if a friend takes advantage of another friend, having to live with that trauma years later, and the issues of sexual-abuse in modern culture. If Diane had just ran up to Gordon after she saw Booper and said "HE'S ACTING EVIL JUST LIKE THE NIGHT HE RAPED ME," that would have been bad and dumb. The fact that she's secretive about whatever happened, how she's trying to maintain her pride and strength and not break down and is being closed-off about how she's been victimized (no matter what she's a victim of), is A) more realistic, B) better writing, and C) more interesting/another mystery to be revealed later in the show.
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Jun 21, 2017 20:57
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Franchescanado posted:Well, they've dealt with it in various ways throughout their work and Twin Peaks. It's never really explored the trauma that occurs if a friend takes advantage of another friend, having to live with that trauma years later, and the issues of sexual-abuse in modern culture. If Diane had just ran up to Gordon after she saw Booper and said "HE'S ACTING EVIL JUST LIKE THE NIGHT HE RAPED ME," that would have been bad and dumb. The fact that she's secretive about whatever happened, how she's trying to maintain her pride and strength and not break down and is being closed-off about how she's been victimized (no matter what she's a victim of), is A) more realistic, B) better writing, and C) more interesting/another mystery to be revealed later in the show. I think that's a fair point. One of the first things we hear about Laura and Ronette in the very first episode is that they were raped by their captors, but that exposition is delivered clinically by the doctors/police department/et cetera. Throughout the show we see the effects of the trauma on Ronette (sort of) but nobody outside the feds ever really talks about it. Fire Walk With Me is a lot more emotionally visceral about it than the show itself is, and maybe they're channeling shades of that here. No way to really know yet, but it is an interesting thought.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:00
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cis autodrag posted:nobody said that though? Incorrect I agreed with the Reddit talk when that was a thing because that was before the most recent episode/we had the context we do now. It was a little creepy to assume it before the most recent ep, but now it's blatant.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:07
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CJacobs posted:I think that's a fair point. One of the first things we hear about Laura and Ronette in the very first episode is that they were raped by their captors, but that exposition is delivered clinically by the doctors/police department/et cetera. Throughout the show we see the effects of the trauma on Ronette (sort of) but nobody outside the feds ever really talks about it. Fire Walk With Me is a lot more emotionally visceral about it than the show itself is, and maybe they're channeling shades of that here. No way to really know yet, but it is an interesting thought. Yeah, exactly. The first time we hear about Laura and Ronette, it's a pretty big "Oh poo poo, this is heavy stuff", with everyone's favorite Prom Queen being killed in the cruelest way possible. Shelly experiences domestic abuse with Leo. Norma experiences a different shade of domestic abuse with Domino-Sucker-Dude. A lot of the girls at One-Eyed Jack's are forced into submissive sexual roles and exploited due to drug abuse or other reasons. FWWM deals with Laura's rape differently, because it's illustrating abuse between a parent and child, forced incest (which is still a very real threat, sadly), and also how people are able to bend their perceptions into denial about absolute truths (Laura not wanting to admit her father, whom she does love, is capable of the evil and cruelty that he exerts on her; Laura's mom refusing to acknowledge her husband's abuse and her daughter's suffering, etc.) Donna is drugged and put into a compromising situation without sober consent because she wants to be Laura/save Laura/eat forbidden fruit/"be an adult". So, yeah, it's easy to say "It's all rape/sexual abuse", but they're all different and all very real problems that haven't gone away, we as a culture (USA) are just shining more light on these issues now. So if Diane did get sexually assaulted by Booper, it's not because it's fun or titillating, but because it's a harsh reality that should be explored. Everyone wanted to love Diane, because Coop loved Diane in Seasons 1-2, she's a mystical figure to us. To reveal she's broken and troubled is hard on fans that wanted something different, maybe a Female Cooper. I admit that personally I interpret things darker because I think of worst-case-scenarios, especially with Lynch. Like, I was expecting Andy to meet up with the dude at 4 o'clock and get shot in the face or something.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:16
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Franchescanado posted:Or, like, who Andy's dealing with and what happened there. I think Andy was investigating the hit and run. The guy who owned the car told him he wasn't the driver, but didn't want to immediately reveal Dick Horne's identity. The open door indicates to me that he got bumped off for talking to the police. There was a fancy white car passing by in the background after they were done talking, so… And More fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 21:20
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And More posted:I think Andy was investigating the hit and run. The guy who owned the car told him he wasn't the driver, but didn't want to immediately reveal Dick Horne's identity. The open door indicates to me that he got bumped off for talking to the police. There was a fancy white car passing by in the background after they were done talking, so… Yeah, that's my conclusion too. Or maybe they had a wife/daughter/friend/etc. at gunpoint in the house if he talked or left.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:22
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Franchescanado posted:I admit that personally I interpret things darker because I think of worst-case-scenarios, especially with Lynch. Like, I was expecting Andy to meet up with the dude at 4 o'clock and get shot in the face or something. Honestly, I just want to hear Diane say it because every evil thing that the doppelganger does is absolutely on Cooper, and I think less of him every time the doppelganger gets away with it.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:24
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And More posted:Honestly, I just want to hear Diane say it because every evil thing that the doppelganger does is absolutely on Cooper, and I think less of him every time the doppelganger gets away with it. I don't think I understand this logic. Yes, the reason Booper was able to get out of the Lodge was because Cooper felt fear/failed the trials and then Booper overtook Cooper and beat him to the exit. However, Booper is separate from Cooper. To pin 25 years of terrible things a different person has done on Cooper doesn't make sense. Cooper's a victim as well, not a villain just because he has an evil twin. Do you blame the people that were mean to Jeffery Dahmer in high school for his murders? Do you blame the record executive for Sharon Tate's murder because he said Charles Manson was a terrible musician? No, you blame the person that committed those crimes, not the holistic origin of the chain of events.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:31
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Tate should have remembered the basics of CQC
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Jun 21, 2017 21:34
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I think this season is more about the random and cruel shadow of death, rather than rape. Which in many ways makes it more cheery. It's certainly more cheery than Fire Walk with Me the movie film as that was totally rapesville and this is just driving a truck into kids somewhere on the outskirts of rapesville at the moment, which is better.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:37
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To be fair, he was in a mad rush to save Annie, and certainly wasn't aware of the rules of the Lodge, the creation of dopples, or the 25 year window. Fairly brutal unintended consequences. One thing I've been thinking is that after whatever plot event "solves" EvilCooper, won't Cooper suddenly regain all of the memories of 25 years of horror, just like Leland Palmer? Seems like Bob has planned to get one last large dose of garmonbozia from Cooper, and may possibly have access to ride around in Coop afterward just like he did to Leland.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:37
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And More posted:Honestly, I just want to hear Diane say it because every evil thing that the doppelganger does is absolutely on Cooper, and I think less of him every time the doppelganger gets away with it. This is an interesting perspective. I guess you could look at it as Cooper being trapped in Dougie Hell being his penance for the suffering Bad Cooper has caused in his stead... but I don't think anyone can reasonably blame the guy for his weakness when confronting the Black Lodge at the end of season 2. He tried his best!
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Jun 21, 2017 21:38
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I doubt it will ever come to light but I wonder what Lynch was thinking for the 1992 season 3. The 25 years thing ended up being very fortuitous in hindsight but I cannot think that the end of season 2 was intended to be the end of Good Coop for the foreseeable future. That said, I'm glad we are getting this instead, as Lynch really did not seem all that committed at the time to long term show running and it is entirely likely season 3 would have ended up being just more season 2 in the worst way.
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Jun 21, 2017 21:42
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Franchescanado posted:I don't think I understand this logic. Yes, the reason Booper was able to get out of the Lodge was because Cooper felt fear/failed the trials and then Booper overtook Cooper and beat him to the exit. Cooper enabled the doppelganger to roam free wearing his face as a mask. He enjoyed a special kind of trust from everyone around him, and Cooper let some murderous psychopath abuse that trust to hurt the people close to him. So far, Albert, the major, Audrey and Diane have been tricked by the doppelganger. It's not like bullying Jeffrey Dahmer. It's like giving Dahmer the keys to your house so he can murder your family. King Keltair posted:To be fair, he was in a mad rush to save Annie, and certainly wasn't aware of the rules of the Lodge, the creation of dopples, or the 25 year window. Fairly brutal unintended consequences. Yeah, he was in a rush, but Hawk had warned him of doppelgangers. CJacobs posted:This is an interesting perspective. I guess you could look at it as Cooper being trapped in Dougie Hell being his penance for the suffering Bad Cooper has caused in his stead... but I don't think anyone can reasonably blame the guy for his weakness when confronting the Black Lodge at the end of season 2. He tried his best! Cooper should have never entered the Lodge. He thought he could just die to save Annie, when others had warned him that it wouldn't be that straightforward. Dougie doing nothing while all this poo poo is happening is definitely torture of some kind, though. 
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Jun 21, 2017 21:49
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I wanted to be done with this stupid topic, but nope - people have to keep bringing it up.Franchescanado posted:It's the people that unironically are saying "Naw, it can't be rape, Laura Dern's a nice person" or "David Lynch wouldn't put rape in Twin Peaks" or "She's obviously mad at Coop for something he did years before the first episode of Twin Peaks" because it's like they're not even watching the show or have seen a David Lynch film. I could take you seriously if anyone ever said any of these things. Instead, you're either half-remembering what was said at best, or intentionally misconstruing what was said at worst. It's getting incredibly frustrating to continue reading comments like this. And if this is just you being super hilarious, then I guess the joke's on me! Now can we talk about literally anything else?
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Jun 21, 2017 21:52
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why are you people still talking when you could just emptyquote this gif instead
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Jun 21, 2017 21:58
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And More posted:Cooper enabled the doppelganger to roam free wearing his face as a mask. He enjoyed a special kind of trust from everyone around him, and Cooper let some murderous psychopath abuse that trust to hurt the people close to him. So far, Albert, the major, Audrey and Diane have been tricked by the doppelganger. I disagree. It's not like Coop said "Yo, mean guy, take my life and gently caress it up hardcore while I sit in this chair and play with coffee and talk to Laura for 25 years." He was trying to a possible-suicide mission to save a girl he liked/loved. Booper stole his life. He is a thief. With the Dahmer analogy, it's like a person was trying to stop a fight and got knocked out and someone stole his keys and murdered his family. It's like blaming a victim of identity theft for having their identity stolen by a person who hacked into their amazon account. Enabling means that Coop consciously said, "You have my permission to be evil under my name," or was aware that Booper was going to steal his identity and ruin his life and shrugged it off. No. Coop was beaten and has been held hostage while one of his captors ruined his life. TheMaestroso posted:I wanted to be done with this stupid topic, but nope - people have to keep bringing it up. Dude, we've moved on. Contribute and discuss stuff instead of worrying if I'm making jokes at your expense or not. It's TVIV on SomethingAwful, people are going to pick on you when you say silly things. Welcome to Goonhood. Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 22:03
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From reddit: Maybe we should just post that gif and this image until the next time Diane comes onscreen. edit http://i.imgur.com/ah3YrFA.mp4
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Jun 21, 2017 22:03
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I doubt even Hawk would blame Cooper for his doppelganger, and a friend of Hawk's is a friend of mine.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:14
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Franchescanado posted:I disagree. It's not like Coop said "Yo, mean guy, take my life and gently caress it up hardcore while I sit in this chair and play with coffee and talk to Laura for 25 years." He was trying to a possible-suicide mission to save a girl he liked/loved. Booper stole his life. He is a thief. With the Dahmer analogy, it's like a person was trying to stop a fight and got knocked out and someone stole his keys and murdered his family. Cooper definitely didn't consent to it, but he didn't take any precautions either. No warning to Truman or Hawk. Does he really go in alone because he wants to protect Truman or does he do it because he knows Truman would never let Cooper give his life to Earle? Trying to save Annie seems noble, but it turns out to be fundamentally selfish. Cooper's life may be ruined, but the major is apparently straight up dead, and Diane seems scarred for life. hawowanlawow posted:I doubt even Hawk would blame Cooper for his doppelganger, and a friend of Hawk's is a friend of mine. Hawk is a very patient and forgiving guy.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:22
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Basticle posted:Holy poo poo a Ghana poster for TP That rules. Who's that on the horse?
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Jun 21, 2017 22:24
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Here's something else problematic for us to discuss
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Jun 21, 2017 22:26
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Shibawanko posted:That rules. Who's that on the horse? Looks like the man from another place on a horse emerging from the river while wielding a very odd looking machine gun.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:27
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Elias_Maluco posted:Here's something else problematic for us to discuss 
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Jun 21, 2017 22:28
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Elias_Maluco posted:Here's something else problematic for us to discuss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX98-40IOdY gently caress you, IndieWire.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:31
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And More posted:Cooper definitely didn't consent to it, but he didn't take any precautions either. No warning to Truman or Hawk. Does he really go in alone because he wants to protect Truman or does he do it because he knows Truman would never let Cooper give his life to Earle? Trying to save Annie seems noble, but it turns out to be fundamentally selfish. Cooper's life may be ruined, but the major is apparently straight up dead, and Diane seems scarred for life. Your argument seems to hinge on things that we know as the viewer, and not what Cooper knew as a character within the show. I think retroactively blaming him for the results of his actions is kind of moot, considering he's not actually the one who orchestrated those results. Him going into the Black Lodge blind was a bad idea, yes, but it doesn't mean he is at fault for the havoc Bad Cooper has sown, as he had no way of knowing it was a possibility. edit: And you're right that Coop is most of the reason for Bad Coop's freedom, but I think he will feel his share of guilt about that if or when he returns to his faculties, whether it's justified or not. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 22:31
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CJacobs posted:Your argument seems to hinge on things that we know as the viewer, and not what Cooper knew as a character within the show. I think retroactively blaming him for the results of his actions is kind of moot, considering he's not actually the one who orchestrated those results. Him going into the Black Lodge blind was a bad idea, yes, but it doesn't mean he is at fault for the havoc Bad Cooper has sown, as he had no way of knowing it was a possibility. I think my argument hinges more directly on Cooper knowing that entering the Black Lodge unprepared is a bad idea. Seeing the results of it just cements further how much of a bad idea it really was. Cooper saw what the Lodge did to the major, and Hawk even told him directly that he didn't believe Cooper could do it. Still, he didn't think it was necessary to take any precautions, which is why they just let the doppelganger leave. CJacobs posted:edit: And you're right that Coop is most of the reason for Bad Coop's freedom, but I think he will feel his share of guilt about that if or when he returns to his faculties, whether it's justified or not. How do you even apologise for something like this? I guess he's had 25 years to come up with something convincing. And More fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 22:40
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Sure, but my point in saying that was that his unpreparedness is not his fault because he had no way of knowing how prepared to actually be. We knew by that point, but he didn't, which is why I made that distinction. He had evidence of what the Lodge did to people, but the reason he thought he was ready was because he'd been there before and made it back unscathed (albeit, in his dream state).
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Jun 21, 2017 22:45
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cis autodrag posted:I'm not necessarily supporting any theory (although this is a good one), I'm just surprised by someone being so adamant about "it's rape and nothing else and you're all wrong, I know because I've seen a lot of raping on TV in my day and I know a rape victim when I see one." This is an insane misrepresentation of what happened but you know that I guess.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:45
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Okay, BUT Cooper is trying to rescue someone at the cost of his life. He is willing to die to do what's right. He thought that was the price. He was wrong and had no idea that whay he considered the ultimate price wasn't enough. Still not his fault that a demon of unfathomable evil was to be released, which is the whole idea behind "unfathomable ", you can't know
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Jun 21, 2017 22:46
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And More posted:Cooper saw what the Lodge did to the major, maybe coop just wanted some sweet 1920s aviator gear?
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Jun 21, 2017 22:53
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I think Coop was definitely somewhat foolhardy in entering the Lodge but to take that as far as blaming all Evil Coop's actions on Coop is way too far. Whether or not he has a little responsibility is debatable, but it's nowhere near his fault.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:56
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It was Cooper's fault. All of this. Every bit of it. Even the Truman's wife. Her speeches? Coopers fault. Lucy falling backwards off a chair? Coopers fault. Cooper could have swanned into town, demanded a shitload of semen samples and found out it was dad. loving rock throwing autist. Ooooh look at me I think coffee and pie are really good and let me try and bone this suicidal nun even though people shoot at me (to kill) every other week, that'll turn out well for her especially as my ex-partner who is literally a gnats nut away from opening a door to hell is out to get me. Little bitch couldn't even play his own chess game even though i'm sure the FBI mainframe could run stockfish in tyool 1990.
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Jun 21, 2017 22:56
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if you think about it literally every bad thing that's ever happened is cooper's fault
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Jun 21, 2017 22:58
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Escobarbarian posted:I think Coop was definitely somewhat foolhardy in entering the Lodge but to take that as far as blaming all Evil Coop's actions on Coop is way too far. Whether or not he has a little responsibility is debatable, but it's nowhere near his fault. Sure, guilt is maybe a bit much, but he definitely made some very crucial dumb decisions. Modrasone posted:Let me try and bone this suicidal nun even though people shoot at me (to kill) every other week, that'll turn out well for her especially as my ex-partner who is literally a gnats nut away from opening a door to hell is out to get me. Little bitch couldn't even play his own chess game even though i'm sure the FBI mainframe could run stockfish in tyool 1990. Couldn't have put it any better. Season two Cooper is one dumb sonofabitch. We're better off with Dougie.  edit: At least Dougie knows how to karate chop a guy when the occasion calls for it.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:03
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