|
BurningStone posted:You misunderstand my objection. I never said it was lovely or pointless. I said it damaged the mystery. That's allowed; this story is a lot of things (arguably too many things) and there's no law that the part I care about has to get priority. You could say the story is really about abuse, and S=K (and =B) is great for that. Certainly the most powerful scenes are about abuse. I personally don't find them fun to read, even if I admire the skill required to create them. I'm following this, and even reread episodes, for the mystery. I'm pretty sure the only people who know about it are: Genji and Kumasawa, (these two basically seem like their parents? Genji would have to know since hes in charge of the servants. They both have metaworld counterparts allied with Beatrice as well.) Nanjo(? Hes the only doctor on the island so i'm assuming he saved the baby after they fell of the cliff? The doctor seems like someone who might know, we know he kept Kinzo being dead a secret so presumably he can keep this a secret too and accept bribes if necessary. Hes almost certainly an accomplice and the culprit liked him enough to send him Big Dollars.) maaaaybe Jessica but probably not (shes the only Ushiromiya who lives there who might actually pay attention to the servants, although she seems to be clueless about it so probably not). Possibly Kinzo before he died if they solved the epitaph. Krauss and Natsuhi only interact with servants by yelling at them, Gohda actually hates them so hes probably not paying attention either. (and didn't realize Kinzo is dead given some of his lines, so cluelessness confirmed).
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 07:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 04:23 |
|
|
Lisonfire posted:Krauss and Natsuhi only interact with servants by yelling at them, Gohda actually hates them so hes probably not paying attention either. (and didn't realize Kinzo is dead given some of his lines, so cluelessness confirmed). Reminder that this all goes up in smoke if Krauss and Natsuhi ever want to gather all the servants into one room by some chance to yell at them over the course of three years. Same thing with Gohda - you'd have to assume he's never in a spot during his...two years? to be assigned in the same place as Shannon/Kanon.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 07:40
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:Not sure why you're thinking 'son' is emotional, as the way it's used is clearly biological. I'm not thinking that. Read the comment I responded to. Lisonfire posted:Krauss and Natsuhi only interact with servants by yelling at them, Gohda actually hates them so hes probably not paying attention either. (and didn't realize Kinzo is dead given some of his lines, so cluelessness confirmed). Natsuhi interacts with the servants besides yelling at them. She assigns them to do things, she interacts with their schedules.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 08:35
|
|
|
Qrr posted:I'm not thinking that. Read the comment I responded to. Obviously as a person the servants work for she can technically assign to do things, but we have no evidence Natsuhi or Krauss are actually interacting with their schedules on a daily basis. Thats presumably literally what Genji's job is. If they do interact with servant scheduling they presumably do this through the person who's job it is do scheduling, Genji. They are spoiled rich assholes who have a servant who's job is to give the servants orders so they don't have too. I don't think its a stretch to think they don't pay close attention to their servants. The exception is during the previous conference where Natsuhi was doing the Kinzo Corpse Conspiracy thing, but we only hear about Kumasawa's little fake kinzo stunt which only took 2 servants and no plan that requires 4 servants being in on it is mentioned, so I see no reason to assume this is an issue. Cyouni posted:Reminder that this all goes up in smoke if Krauss and Natsuhi ever want to gather all the servants into one room by some chance to yell at them over the course of three years. Same thing with Gohda - you'd have to assume he's never in a spot during his...two years? to be assigned in the same place as Shannon/Kanon. 1. The servants don't all come to work at the same time. They have shifts. Presumably 99% of the time Shannon and Kanon do not have to worry about this. 2. Going by the theory that Sayo found the gold and is "the new Kinzo", they can probably just get Genji to schedule their shifts whenever the hell they want, other then the Family conference when it would clash with the Kinzo Corpse Conspiracy. We don't really know about Genji and sayo's relation before the gold is found, but going by the fact that Ronove is one of Beatrice's friends we can maybe assume some relationship existed before this and he might be willing to do this without the authority of being kinzo's heir barring direct orders from Kinzo himself (who seems unlikely to care about servant schedules). This isn't even considering its possible Genji knows sayo is the cliffbaby, if thats the case, and might consider her Kinzo's heir regardless (I really doubt the cliff baby is anything other then Kinzo's incest baby, why would he even care about the baby if it was Kyries).
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 09:26
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:My only problem with this is Eva was for real beating the living poo poo out of Natsushi, and nobody was stopping her. I think that's going a bit far just for a prank, even for this family. Well, 1) if Rosa is to be believed, physical abuse is not abnormal in this family and 2) remember that all the adults are SUPER PISSED that Krauss and Natsuhi have been using this Kinzo trick to keep millions of dollars away from them that they desperately need. I shouldn't call it a prank in episode 5; it's a trick or a con but it's deadly serious.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 12:45
|
|
|
 BGM: Birth of a New Witch (instrumental) A crowd of guests wearing goat masks filled the cathedral, waiting for the arrival of the bride and groom... Fitting for a demon's wedding, it was not solemn or quiet, but cheery and noisy, brimming with activity.   "I hear she has gone to see Zepar and Furfur. With the power of love, that powerful pair could even force the demon king to retreat. I do hope that they can be helpful..." "...I know a~ll about those two. I think you know as well as I that they won't hand over their power easily." "True. However, that is why they are capable of granting a miraculous power." "...At any rate, if we can just free Battler-kun's heart from that closed room, we should be able to manage something here. Closed rooms are your favorite, are they not, Gaap? Can you think of any tricks...?!" "This is a nasty one. Battler and Erika have been dropping red truths all over the place. I can say for certain that it is impossible to escape from the inside on one's own." "So, after all, the only way is to have someone else trade places with him and set the chain..." "...If that person does appear, it should be easy to save Battler. There are 11 people, right?" "Those 11 are sealed on the second floor of the guesthouse... If we could somehow slip them out of there...!" "...I see. Solving the problem of Battler-sama's closed room is equivalent to solving the problem of either closed room on the guesthouse's second floor." "Exactly. Limiting your thoughts to just Battler's guest room is like being trapped in a mental closed room. The closed room we need to break open to save Battler isn't the guest room. It's the closed rooms in the guesthouse...!" "Tch. And you guys specialize in seals and barriers..." "However, that was quite impressive, <Miss> Gaap. You realized that the closed room you should destroy to save Battler is in the GUESTHOUSE. The ceremony will begin SOON, but why not reconstruct the scene as a way to kill time until THEN?" "...A, are you sure? Doesn't this violate the obligation of confidentiality you have as Lady Erika's pieces...?" "That is no PROBLEM. Surely, if you first have the seals around the scene confirmed and fall into DESPAIR, you will be able to celebrate this ceremony more SINCERELY." "How confident... I'll take that challenge. Lia, let's have ourselves a little snack before the ceremony." "With that, dear ladies of Eiserne, we humbly ask that you reconstruct the scene for us."  ""We hear and obey."" "The next room over has the exact same LAYOUT. This should be enough for your INSPECTION." "This room has... Genji, Gohda, Kanon. And then Krauss, Rudolf, and Jessica, for a total of six people." "The next room over has Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo, for a total of 5 PEOPLE." "Don't be stupid, everyone. It doesn't matter who's here. We need to find out how to escape from this room." "Y, you're right. The door and windows are sealed, so we must somehow escape from some other place..." "...You know what? I know all about how you heaven people specialize in deceiving by force. This is no closed room. Right...?" "...Please, allow me to speak. Let it be known that the closed rooms in our charge are perfect...!" "You were in charge of the window seal of Kinzo's room last game, right...? Just how did Battler let Kinzo escape from that room...?" "..." "...That was no fault of Cornelia's. The blame rests on her superior, ME." "This is exactly the same as Kinzo's study. It's the windows. This closed room can be broken by the windows. This trick of yours is just plain obvious." "H, how...?! Lady Erika sealed the entire room, right...? That means the entire room is sealed, including the windows...!" "...I see. It would seem that we have been misinterpreting the definition of these seals. It is not impossible to break, a closed room sealed by duct tape. It forms no prison." "That's it exactly. It's true that the seals prove that the room was a closed room. However, they do not prove that the room will remain as such. They only prove that the room is a closed room as long as the duct tape is not broken." "We are not trying to deceive you in any WAY. As long as the duct tape is intact, it is guaranteed to be a closed ROOM. That is ALL." "Th, then why the windows...?! Why is it that we can break the closed room by the windows?!" "It's simple. We just tear the duct tape apart and jump out. I don't know what the outside wall of the guesthouse is like, but it must have enough of a foothold so that girl could crawl up it and stick duct tape on the outside without anyone noticing." "...If you break the duct tape, we will immediately know that the seal has been BROKEN. And we have already proven that the seals were intact at the time of Battler's logic ERROR." Gaap is the demon that specializes in burying closed room mysteries... She looked down at the short Dlanor, as though a challenge such as this was like taking candy from a baby. Dlanor looked up at her with a bold expression, and sparks flew between them... "What do you mean, 'seals=closed room' is wrong?! That's insane..." "Remember, Lia. Which seals did Erika and the others show us at that time? Which seals did they show were still intact?!" "...Pu ku ku ku. I see. This is the sort of falsification that the Great Court of Heaven likes to practice." "I cannot let that remark PASS. What is your COMPLAINT?" "Come on, I've been saying it the whole time. It's the windows. It's true that you sealed everything with those seals. That included the windows, at that time. And at the time they were sealed, that counted as proof. So far so good. But you know what?!" "After that, any one of the people inside could have done it! Umm, who was here again?! Genji, Gohda, Kanon, Krauss, Rudolf, Jessica! Any one of them could do it! All they had to do was tear the duct tape on the window, slip out from there, and save Battler...!" "But at the time of the logic error, it was proven that the seals were intact...!"  "..." "C, come to think of it...! At that time, Lady Erika just showed the doors of the two rooms and claimed that the seals were intact for each... She never mentioned the seals on the windows...!!" "That's correct. It's probably true that the seals on the doors and windows were perfect at first.?However, at the time of the logic error, only the status of the seals on the doors was confirmed. In other words, since the time Erika left the guesthouse, it was not forbidden for them to break through the windows and leave whenever they wished!" "..." "What do you say? I've got you now, haven't I? So this is how you do things." "...Hmph..." "...Commander Dlanor. It's nearly time..." "...It seems the bride and groom have ARRIVED. This ends our CHAT. We will meet again LATER."With a happy-looking grin on her face, Dlanor turned around. But this must have hit her where it hurts. Gaap wouldn't let her get away. She grabbed the other's shoulder. "...Wait there. Confirm whether or not the seals on the windows were preserved at the time of the logic error. If you don't, it's possible for anyone in that room to save Battler!!" "And who... do you think such a rescue would be possible FOR?" "It doesn't matter who! Then, just by personal preference, I'll name Kanon-kun. He seems agile, and hiding his presence is his specialty. He's the perfect person to follow after Erika and quickly come to Battler-kun's rescue!" "Kanon...? Hehheheheheheheheheheh... IMPOSSIBLE." "Impossible? Come now, we can't trust what you say with normal words. Use the red truth. Swear upon that red longsword of yours." "...<Miss> Gaap. A sacred wedding is about to begin HERE. You ask me to draw my sword in a sacred place such as THIS? How inelegant and RUDE. Let's do this some other TIME. GOODBYE." BGM: None  Gaap's rapid reverse roundhouse that followed her blue wedge... crossed with Dlanor's red longsword, and both pointed at the other's throat... The once peaceful mood of the wedding broke apart. Several goat guests whispered to each other, wondering why those two seemed to be fighting. "...Okay, so you can counter that... Why didn't you just say so in the first place?" "...We thought that Beatrice might eventually reach that thought, then barge in on the wedding with that as the key to Battler's ESCAPE. I did not think that you would press us first... and force us to show our HAND." "Y, you do fight dirty, don't you... You were trying to trap Beato by making her suspect the windows, then turning the tables on her..." "What else should a human who guards the bride be expected to DO? Are you satisfied NOW? A hellish wedding truly is vulgar and BARBARIC. If you would excuse US." "...Wait up, you haven't fooled me yet... You were talking about the seals blocking Kanon, the ones on the windows of the cousins' room, right? Then what about the windows on the next room over? All you've done is shown that the rescue would have been impossible for Kanon. There's still a chance for the humans in the next room over...!" "...How very PERSISTENT." BGM: Happiness of Marionette - Omake  "Dlanor A. Knox. I am with the bride's PARTY. Here is my stamped INVITATION. Also, here are my credentials as bodyguard to the BRIDE." "Confirmed as Chief Knox. Welcome to Lord BATTLER's wedding!" "I'm Gaap. I'm with the groom's party. Here's my invitation and... ah, oh no." "You didn't get it stamped at the reception desk nyeh." "I came here directly, so I didn't go by the reception desk. Tehe, haven't got a stamp yet." "Wh, why do you always have to do that at times like this...?!!" "...Gaap-sama. My apologies, but we'll have to ask you to come with us to a different room."Dlanor watched, shrugged, and turned away...  "Wait there, Dlanor!! Respond to my blue truth!!" "Allow me to speak. Know that the ticket window is open from 10:00 to 5:00 on weekdays. Lunch break runs from 12:00 to 1:15." "Allow me to speak. Know that the use of white-out or strikethroughs is not permitted when filling out forms." "There's a rumor that they refuse Comiket applications for the same thing nyeh." "Th, that's an urban legend... Probably." "Let us provisionally accept that blue truth VERBALLY. It will be put on hold until the proper forms are received, and multiple submissions are not ALLOWED." "I don't understand!! Can you respond to my blue truth?! Or can't you?!" "...If you fill out the application on Monday, we should be able to have an answer for you by the end of next MONTH. Multiple submissions are forbidden, so the blue truth you just spoke will be unusable during this wedding CEREMONY. This is in accordance with the laws of evidence, official Great Court regulation 214 line 15, regarding the prevention of multiple SUBMISSIONS!" "Please, allow me to speak. Know that it is forbidden for blue truth to be used if based on the argument that the window seals of the next room over were torn at the time of the logic error." "Please, allow me to speak. Know that there can be no obligation to provide an answer to this blue truth...!" "C, cowards!! Hey, let go of me, rabbit band!!" BGM: None Just when she had thought that she'd reached the core... they had underhandedly refused to respond. However, this is a big clue. There's a chance that the window seals on the next room over have been broken...! In other words, it might be possible for Hideyoshi, George, Kumasawa, Shannon, or Nanjo to save Battler. And yet, just now, that has been sealed away...! The use of any blue based on 'the window seals on the next room over might have been broken'...has been prevented... It's now impossible... to claim that the five who could have saved Battler were the ones who did it...!  BGM: Waltz Op. 34   "...My apologies, child of man. I am stuck on this just like you are." "Huh... What are you saying...?" "I also realized that the windows of the next room over were left available... However, I hadn't imagined that the use of that argument would be prevented..." "Doesn't this completely violate the rules?! I mean, how can a quiz be fair if you can't say the right answer?! Isn't this a logic error for the other side?!" "...We can also view the fact that the tale is continuing as proof that it wasn't a logic error..." "In other words, there's some other answer completely unrelated to the windows of the next room over...?" "...Or, it may be possible to explain, without discussing the windows, how one of those five came to Battler's rescue." "And not discussing the windows means getting out of the room without using the windows. That would make this next room over a closed room again...!" "...Yes. That is why I am also stuck. Because of these strange seal proclamations, the two rooms have once again become closed rooms. Most likely-" "Most likely what? If you're so vastly intelligent, what kind of answer have you found?!" "No answer?! What do you mean?!" "There is no way out except for the windows of the next room over. And yet, we are not allowed to include those windows in our reasoning. There probably is no answer... for this closed room." "And if so, what next?!" "Since no answer exists, then defeat is absolutely certain for whichever player is burdened with the responsibility of explaining." "So we have no moves left...?! In other words, that statement of Dlanor's... was the final blow?! Doesn't this make it checkmate?!!" BGM: Worldend (solo) "You mean... one of the greatest riddles of this tale...?" "Precisely. By using that, or possibly..."Featherine sighed deeply. It was something she hadn't done at all before now. I see. So, as long as this tale has been, it is finally time for the curtain to close... Revealing this riddle... means the same as finally... killing Beato. Battler... is probably the only one qualified to do that. If he weaves that tale as the Game Master... No one will be able to stop it now... 
Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jun 22, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 13:25
|
|
|
  We have awesome music, and an announcement of a major truth coming up. Things are going to get very exciting soon.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 14:09
|
|
|
Van Dine posted:On a different note from the above: Pool is Closed, do you want a new avatar? Witchchat has one ready and waiting to give you. Yes please! I have to admit I'm extremely curious. Also Halloween passed quite a while ago, so I should dress more appropriately for Battler's wedding. POOL IS CLOSED fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Jun 22, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 14:14
|
|
|
What? What truth? I wonder if it's what I think it is... I'd like to concentrate more, but I'm too busy bangin' my head to that first new tune to concentrate  Berne and Erika might be awful fuckers, but I suppose they have pretty good taste in party music.It's really hard to get a handle on the character of Dlanor and where she's coming from (and not because she suddenly has glasses in this scene, what? I'd say they were for reading, but she isn't reading anything...) Is she bound to serve Erika by rules, or does she want to? Sealing up the windows to the rooms... gotta admit that's where my thoughts were going too, and yeah, that did seem a little bet too easy to be allowed... but tell me: when were the rooms sealed, exactly, because the "retroactive" thing is kinda loving with me a bit... was it directly after Erika left, or before she did and her leaving just doesn't count? Could someone have slipped out either immediately before, or at the same time that she did?
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 15:02
|
|
|
I have some disorganized thoughts on Erika, meta, and the nature of our discussion. I actually have a lot of sympathy for Erika, despite how horrible she is. Despair can turn someone into her, especially when that person is a perfectionist. She seems to feel things very intensely and then express her insecurity as a need for control. She might have been decent enough before whatever events led her to our purgatory. She's still a very human witch. She just lost her love -- instead, she has the cold comfort of truth. And that's a point that digs between you witches and the rest of us. Some of us do not share your faith in the author. That's only natural. Not only have we not seen this work all the way through, but each of us comes at this from a different place which necessarily colors our perception of and reaction to the mystery. You might say we don't have enough love of the mystery or the author to penetrate to the truth, and chastise us for saying that twists and tropes cheapen what we're being shown. I ask that you witches and my fellow readers remember that we should also see each other with some of that love and try to understand the sources of our doubts and our trust in Ryukishi07. Some of us fear the author's truth, here. Erika represents that fear, too, and the resulting desire to take control and steer circumstances to an ending one is less frightened of, regardless of consequences. The pieces are our stand ins too.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 15:25
|
|
|
resurgam40 posted:It's really hard to get a handle on the character of Dlanor and where she's coming from (and not because she suddenly has glasses in this scene, what? I'd say they were for reading, but she isn't reading anything...) There's a TIP I really should finish translating one of these days that sheds some light on the background of the Inquisition and other branches of the Court of Heaven, but they basically work as office ladies in a bureau and their department just happens to be one of those that gets field assignments as enforcers of the Heavenly law.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 15:38
|
|
|
 POOL IS CLOSEDI can't say that I'm not a bit worried either.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 15:43
|
|
|
WITCHES AREN'T REAL.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 15:50
|
|
|
POOL IS CLOSED posted:I have some disorganized thoughts on Erika, meta, and the nature of our discussion. This is a good post. Personally, I've been sitting on most of my thoughts on the story as a whole until we all have at least close to the same information. As someone who's already read Umineko, it's easy to forget what it's like to read it for the first time. All readers are allowed to have their own views and opinions as the story unfolds.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 15:55
|
|
|
ProfessorProf posted:This is a good post. Yeah, I think this is fair. Sorry for speaking out of turn. Its been frustrating for us, I think, Because the thread got pretty negative about everything for a while and it just got kinda painful to read. I wanted to encourage the readers to not stop thinking just because they thought the story was unfair or didnt trust it. Of course, looking back, that distrust is also natural. Possibly even a feature of the game. And the original fandom had this exact issue at that time as well. I guess its up to every individual reader to determine how much faith they have in the writer to tell the story.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 16:08
|
|
|
POOL IS CLOSED posted:I ask that you witches and my fellow readers remember that we should also see each other with some of that love and try to understand the sources of our doubts and our trust in Ryukishi07. I have to say that this thread has surprisingly (and not so surprisingly) closely mirrored the reactions of the Umineko fanbase back when it was originally being released, obviously just in a much smaller scale. For what it's worth, despite what I may have personally said and unintentionally implied, I'm not telling you to trust the author unconditionally, but I am asking you to consider how your interpretation of the tale might change if you did. Honestly, I couldn't tell you to trust him because there might be some elements of the story that some people will disagree with, but don't do like I did years back and disagree without properly reading it yourself. Personally, I was not as right as I thought I was. And don't worry, that is not in reference to whether Shannon and Kanon are the same person or not.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 16:14
|
|
|
resurgam40 posted:(and not because she suddenly has glasses in this scene, what? I'd say they were for reading, but she isn't reading anything...) They're for being cute
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 16:19
|
|
|
I had another long post about authorial authority, audience trust, fatigue, and the pacing of rising action in contrast with slower scenes and small payoffs, but I couldn't make it come together the way I wanted. Insert notions about attention economy, rewards, and narrative parsimony here. I have to acknowledge that my personal fatigue and diminished trust come not only from what I see as worn out tropes is due to the structure and pacing I'm experiencing. This isn't how the OG reader experienced Umineko. That's not meant as a knock against Prof. The manner of presentation has an inescapable impact on the viewing or reading experience. In fact, this means of presenting Umineko has one big positive that you original witches didn't get, and that is basically that we are all playing this game as a group at mostly the same time in the same virtual space. Everyone reading the work separately at release and then discussing through various forms of social media didn't get quite the same experience.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 16:29
|
|
|
Dlanor's glasses are great.POOL IS CLOSED posted:I have some disorganized thoughts on Erika, meta, and the nature of our discussion. Pool consistently making good posts. If anyone wishes my personal opinion on this, I maintain an odd state of trust. I wouldn't say I trust in the answer to be satisfying, but every assumption I've made rests on the belief that the author made a good story that remains consistent with itself. I don't know if you can call that trust or not, but it's all I have. And yes, to the above post, I do think the fact that we have a time delay in our viewing of parts within the same episode colours our views differently than how one may expect. Qrr posted:I'm not thinking that. Read the comment I responded to. I suppose I'm reinforcing your comment, then? Lisonfire posted:Obviously as a person the servants work for she can technically assign to do things, but we have no evidence Natsuhi or Krauss are actually interacting with their schedules on a daily basis. Thats presumably literally what Genji's job is. If they do interact with servant scheduling they presumably do this through the person who's job it is do scheduling, Genji. Thanks to Jessica/Kyrie, we know that Shannon's shift is on the island 3 days of the week. That's not an appreciable decrease in time for the purposes of our discussion. A year and a few months is just as long as three years when it comes to disbelief on this subject. Also according to Episode 2 (part 30, if you care to check), we know that Natsuhi is the one that schedules shifts, Genji just handles the fine details. So both problems still apply. ProfessorProf posted:This is a good post. Would you say... Knox's 9th: It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be HEARD.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 16:33
|
|
|
POOL IS CLOSED makes a good point about keeping faith on what this story is intended to tell, but I'm here to post a dumb theory this morning. Kanon, or rather, someone could have stuck out of the rooms sometime after
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 16:55
|
|
|
I think those actions happened simultaneously according to the rules though. If so, no one had a chance to slip out between being named and sealed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 16:58
|
|
|
I've been assuming that, at least, the mysteries are fair as long as you accept the basic rules relating to the red text and subjective viewpoints. Speaking of... ProfessorProf posted:
I'm with Ange here. This is a bit silly! On the other hand, Gaap seems to have forgotten which side she's playing for. It's the witch side that's obligated to respond to blue truth. Battler or Beato or whomever can just say" Kanon got out, suck on that" in red and it's up to Erika to figure out how that happened.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 17:09
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:I've been assuming that, at least, the mysteries are fair as long as you accept the basic rules relating to the red text and subjective viewpoints. Speaking of... Doubling up on your logic error seems like a questionable idea. The way it seems to work is if you don't have a card to play, the judge shuts you down.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 17:16
|
|
|
Sure. But there is a card, if Shannon and Kanon are the same person. Shannon's room has not been confirmed to be escape-proof. In fact, Dlanor fleeing the scene here suggests that it is eminently escapable. We're just forbidden from making blue-truth theories based on it. But now, so is Erika, I suppose. If the mystery is turned around and it's declared in red that Kanon escaped (or even Shannon), Erika will now be prohibited from explaining how.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 17:26
|
|
|
POOL IS CLOSED posted:I think those actions happened simultaneously according to the rules though. If so, no one had a chance to slip out between being named and sealed. Probably, but it I wasn't 100% sure of that so I just threw it out there.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 17:27
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:
??? I mean Shannon and Kanon probably do not work on the same shift 90% of the time, and thus have 0 chance of being discovered. Actually, now that I think about it, don't both of them mention they barely have a life outside the island? It'd be weird for that to be true if they only had 1 3 day shift each, instead of 2 3 day shifts combined.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 17:32
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:Sure. But there is a card, if Shannon and Kanon are the same person. Shannon's room has not been confirmed to be escape-proof. In fact, Dlanor fleeing the scene here suggests that it is eminently escapable. We're just forbidden from making blue-truth theories based on it. But now, so is Erika, I suppose. If the mystery is turned around and it's declared in red that Kanon escaped (or even Shannon), Erika will now be prohibited from explaining how. Know that it is forbidden for blue truth to be used if based on the argument that the window seals of the next room over were torn at the time of the logic error. Know that there can be no obligation to provide an answer to this blue truth...! Seems to imply to me that if you try anything based on the argument that the window seals were torn, they don't need to respond to it. That in turn implies that does no damage to their case. Lisonfire posted:??? I mean Shannon and Kanon probably do not work on the same shift 90% of the time, and thus have 0 chance of being discovered. Actually, now that I think about it, don't both of them mention they barely have a life outside the island? It'd be weird for that to be true if they only had 1 3 day shift each, instead of 2 3 day shifts combined. The thing is that of the evidence we've seen, we know that they're constantly working at the same time. Hell, just look at Chapter 2. We know Natsuhi's constantly patrolling and checking up on each of them, as she's specifically checking in on Shannon before reassigning Runon, and then she does it again after Runon's done the other job. All that while Kanon's got his own job to do, also mentioned there. All it would take is to go from checking up on Shannon to checking up on Kanon, or vice versa. I think they're both constantly on the island, but don't necessarily have shifts. It's like when Shannon's having a tea party with Beatrice on the island, that's one of her "off days".
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 17:42
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:Know that it is forbidden for blue truth to be used if based on the argument that the window seals of the next room over were torn at the time of the logic error. Know that there can be no obligation to provide an answer to this blue truth...! That's specifically the line I'm leaning on here. It says blue truth, but there are other kinds of truth. In fact, blue truth is mostly a tool for the human side, not the witch side. In theory, the witch side should know the answer already.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 17:57
|
|
|
Pool's new avatar is phenomenal.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 17:59
|
|
|
Holy poo poo it is amazing.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 18:07
|
|
|
For more wild theory times, was it ever stated in red that the guesthouse rooms that Erika sealed are Closed RoomsTM or merely that all entrances and exits have been sealed? Is it possible that the people in the next room over smashed a hole in the wall to the neighboring room and left through that completely unsealed door. We know the walls are thin enough for Erika to hear perfectly across one so it's not impossible for two adult men with a gun to break open a hole at least big enough for Shannon to crawl through. Mostly I just want to see a scene of George roundhouse kicking a wall in half, because that poo poo is the best part of these games. Which brings me to the question of how much I trust the author, and really I think I trust the author the most when it comes to  magical action scenes. Specifically I trust that they never happened like that, so I can sit back and enjoy the show and worry about the mystery later.What I'm getting at is, when will the Umineko fighting game be spoiler-free?
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 18:09
|
|
|
 holy mackerel!Thanks! Now I'm a real fishwife!
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 18:13
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:
Not til the end of episode 7/maybe 8 due to the expansion
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 18:14
|
|
|
Come to think of it, we haven't had any certified Closed Rooms in the guesthouse at all, have we? Is there something about the guesthouse rooms that means they cannot be made to fit Beato's definition of a closed room?
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 18:26
|
|
|
ZiegeDame posted:Come to think of it, we haven't had any certified Closed Rooms in the guesthouse at all, have we? Is there something about the guesthouse rooms that means they cannot be made to fit Beato's definition of a closed room? Wait, I thought Erika sealed them with her tape. Are they not?
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 18:27
|
|
|
That is an amazing avatar. idonotlikepeas posted:That's specifically the line I'm leaning on here. It says blue truth, but there are other kinds of truth. In fact, blue truth is mostly a tool for the human side, not the witch side. In theory, the witch side should know the answer already. The status of both sides is weirdly confusing at this point. Gaap's dropping blue which is responded to with Dlanor's red. Erika's both a temporary witch and not-a-detective at the same time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 18:28
|
|
|
Actually, the first fighting game is totally spoiler-free by now. Cross will have to wait until mid-EP8, though. Playable: Battler, Beatrice, Virgilia, Ronove, Lucifer, Ange, EVA, Rosa, Chiester 410, Jessica, George, Kanon, Shannon.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 18:31
|
|
|
idonotlikepeas posted:That's specifically the line I'm leaning on here. It says blue truth, but there are other kinds of truth. In fact, blue truth is mostly a tool for the human side, not the witch side. In theory, the witch side should know the answer already. Sure, but that doesn't seem to be the intent. If it were that easy, then there would be no need for the "move" that Featherine refers to, the one that "can never be used again." It would just be some variation on "Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, or Nanjo was not in the next room over when Erika was fighting with the guest room shower" in red, boom, done, and all that really accomplishes is to hand the human side an answer, anyway. For the sake of argument, can anyone think of a way that S=K actually gets us around all current red plus intact window seals on the next room over taken as red? Because the S=K hypothesis is certainly consistent with a move that "can never be used again," since once you've pulled that trigger it won't fool anyone again, but I can't see a way it actually helps here. Edit: Oh, wait, actually, I think I have it. Because the "Everyone else is in the cousins' room" red leaves room for Kanon to not actually be in there if S=K (and in fact that's required if S=K because we have red placing Shannon in the next room over), you can just use red to state that "Kanon was not in the cousins' room when Erika was fighting with the shower". Then you're not explicitly using blue to say anything about the windows in the next room over, even though the legality of your move depends upon Shannon having been able to leave through the window, and you're setting up a suitably witchy mystery in the process with Kanon "disappearing" from the room that's been confirmed to be sealed. Gaap's choice to use Kanon as her example in this update even supports this being the "correct" answer from the perspective of narrative convention. Confused Llama fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jun 22, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 18:31
|
|
|
^^^ That only creates the illusion that there is a way out of the logic error. It's another bluff, and Battler has already been called on it. It still doesn't explain how Battler got out of his room.POOL IS CLOSED posted:Wait, I thought Erika sealed them with her tape. Are they not? Generally the witch side only gives confirmation that a room is a Closed Room when a murder occurs there and it's important to their 'magic'. Witch side isn't gonna hand Erika any free red beyond what her seals already earn her. And her seals only guarantee that none of the entrances/exits were opened. Unlike the full Closed Room proclamation they don't, on their own, mean it is impossible to interact across the boundary in any way. ProfessorProf posted:Actually, the first fighting game is totally spoiler-free by now. Cross will have to wait until mid-EP8, though. Needs more Kyrie ZiegeDame fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jun 22, 2017 |
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 18:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 04:23 |
|
|
Bah. Even the cheat of bringing another person in would be sealed by Everyone else is in the cousins room. I feel this solution is related to the riddle Beatrice proposed at the end of episode 4. An answer where everyone is 'dead' yet someone can still kill Battler. But the only answers I can come up with on that are basically cheating by saying that "Beatrice does not count as alive or dead, and does not count as a person".
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2017 19:33
|
|