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Confused Llama posted:For the sake of argument, can anyone think of a way that S=K actually gets us around all current red plus intact window seals on the next room over taken as red? Because the S=K hypothesis is certainly consistent with a move that "can never be used again," since once you've pulled that trigger it won't fool anyone again, but I can't see a way it actually helps here. Certainly. The idea is that Erika will try to say in red that all the characters are in rooms, hence no one could save Battler. Battler can respond that there is actually someone not listed that the red truth does not apply to. Sayo. S=K is something that uses identity shenanigans to escape red truth, and Sayo is an extension of that.
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Jun 22, 2017 19:35
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So an interesting quote: "Since no answer exists, then defeat is absolutely certain for whichever player is burdened with the responsibility of explaining." Is there a way to shift which player is burdened with the responsibility of explaining? And I really don't get how S=K helps this situation. Let's say it's true. Ok, now Kanon is in a different closed room than he was before. Not very helpful. And like other people I'm confused as to how Dlanor can just refuse to answer the window question. Though her initial red was "the seals on the windows were also intact", which I assumed referred to all sealed windows since it has no limiters.
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Jun 22, 2017 19:38
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The way to shift the burden of explanation is to force the other player to make a claim that must be defended.
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Jun 22, 2017 19:44
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EagerSleeper posted:Certainly. The idea is that Erika will try to say in red that all the characters are in rooms, hence no one could save Battler. Battler can respond that there is actually someone not listed that the red truth does not apply to. Sayo. S=K is something that uses identity shenanigans to escape red truth, and Sayo is an extension of that. Even if Sayo is not covered by Shannon, she would be covered by Everyone Else.
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Jun 22, 2017 19:48
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I picked a good time to catch up on this. I'm away on a work trip, so I don't have time for a long reply, but Erika's remurder strategy was 10/10 legit amazing. Did not see it coming at all. Also, it was horrifying. Another point to bring up. Everyone. As people, and the game has pointed out, it's non-exclusive and non-specific. That's the same trick that was used in the dining room in the last game. That was the rest of them. I thought it was weird then. I'm certain it's weird now. The fact that they don't list where everyone is explicitly almost guarantees that someone isn't where we thought that they were. Basically what Confused Llama pointed out here: Confused Llama posted:Edit: Oh, wait, actually, I think I have it. Because the "Everyone else is in the cousins' room" red leaves room for Kanon to not actually be in there if S=K (and in fact that's required if S=K because we have red placing Shannon in the next room over), you can just use red to state that "Kanon was not in the cousins' room when Erika was fighting with the shower". Then you're not explicitly using blue to say anything about the windows in the next room over, even though the legality of your move depends upon Shannon having been able to leave through the window, and you're setting up a suitably witchy mystery in the process with Kanon "disappearing" from the room that's been confirmed to be sealed. Gaap's choice to use Kanon as her example in this update even supports this being the "correct" answer from the perspective of narrative convention. But it doesn't explain the necessity of the non-specificity in the last episode. So, here goes a theory: Shannon=Sayo=Kanon1. Kanon2=Yoshiya. Kanon1!=Kanon2 There are 17 people on the island. Battler, Rudolf, Kyrie, Jessica, Natsuhi, Krauss, George, Eva, Hideyoshi, Kanon/Shannon, Genji, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Kanon/Yoshiya, Gohda, Rosa, Maria. Therefore, "Kanon" is in the left room, and "Kanon" is in the right room. The red text given is therefore ambiguous as to which room its referring to. As is the blue text referring to the next room over, as they're both the next room over. One room is unsealed, but the room with Kanon in it is sealed. It is also unsealed. The room next to the room with Kanon in it is always sealed, but also unsealed. As to why this would be the case, you'd have to chalk it up to a grand conspiracy to hide the survival of the cliff baby. But there being two Kanon's seems like it would avoid a lot of the problems and explain why one of the two of Shannon and Kanon leaving would destroy the life of the other. The big problem here is that I don't have a good answer as to why this would have happened, apart from being a neat solution. If one of them were the cliff baby and the other had been charged with hiding their survival, it seems like the most ridiculous method of going about it, but if it's not that, I still don't have much of a solution to the deliberate non-specificity in episode 5. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 19:57
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Qrr posted:And I really don't get how S=K helps this situation. Let's say it's true. Ok, now Kanon is in a different closed room than he was before. Not very helpful. Mostly S=K helps get Battler out because of identity ambiguity. I think that Sayo is going to be chosen to help Battler, but Kanon could as well. ZiegeDame posted:Even if Sayo is not covered by Shannon, she would be covered by Everyone Else. Kanon and Everyone Else was the one red truth Battler refused to establish. The room containing Krauss, Rudolf, Gohda, Jessica, and Genji was stated to be a closed room, door and windows included. However Kanon or Sayo may not be in the room, so they are free to save Battler.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:03
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^^^ CottonWolf posted:But it doesn't explain the necessity of the non-specificity in the last episode. So, here goes a theory: Shannon=Sayo=Kanon1. Kanon2=Yoshiya. Kanon1!=Kanon2 There are 17 people on the island. Battler, Rudolf, Kyrie, Jessica, Natsuhi, Krauss, George, Eva, Hideyoshi, Kanon/Shannon, Genji, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Kanon/Yoshiya, Gohda, Rosa, Maria. That seems to contradict Nobody would mistake someone else for Kanon.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:04
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ZiegeDame posted:That seems to contradict Nobody would mistake someone else for Kanon. But Kanon is Kanon. Who is also Shannon and Sayo. Kanon only has one body, but shares it with other folks.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:06
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EagerSleeper posted:But Kanon is Kanon. Who is also Shannon and Sayo. Kanon only has one body, but shares it with other folks. Did you even read the text I quoted? It explicitly proposes two separate people called Kanon
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Jun 22, 2017 20:07
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ZiegeDame posted:That seems to contradict Nobody would mistake someone else for Kanon. No. Because at that point Kanon is an ambiguous name. We might as well equivalently say, "Nobody would mistake someone else for Ushiromiya Battler", when we're pretty sure that there are two Ushiromiya Battlers. You're not mistaking anyone, it's just no longer a particularly useful thing to recognise.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:07
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CottonWolf posted:No. Because at that point Kanon is an ambiguous name. We might as well equivalently say, "Nobody would mistake someone else for Ushiromiya Battler", when we're pretty sure that there are two Ushiromiya Battlers. You're not mistaking anyone, it's just no longer a particularly useful thing to recognise. Also No one else can go by Kanon's name! A different person can't claim that as their name! But I'll admit that red truth gets pretty murky if Kanon was always a name that belonged to two people. It still feels like it violates the spirit of the truth, and would in turn shake trust in the author.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:14
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ZiegeDame posted:Also No one else can go by Kanon's name! A different person can't claim that as their name! But I'll admit that red truth gets pretty murky if Kanon was always a name that belonged to two people. It still feels like it violates the spirit of the truth, and would in turn shake trust in the author. Yeah. I don't think it does explicitly violate the red, but I agree it's not a hugely satisfying solution. It's just the only thing that I can think of that would both explain why the blue truth isn't allowed (the red truth that corresponds to it is simultaneously true and false) and explain the ambiguity.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:21
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Posts are appearing fast here, so I just saw this image now. It's interesting because I'm certain that Krauss' room has been established to have the door and windows be a closed room. But the windows are available for Shannon's room.... Hmm. Instant teleportation? After all, if they share a body and are multiple personalities, then Kanon can escape Krauss' room and appear in Shannon's body to exit out the windows. Edit: You can replace 'Kanon' with 'Sayo' and still have it apply. EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 20:27
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Well, Dlanor didn't say that the second room's window seal wasn't broken. In fact, she very specifically declined to do so in a very pointed way, because Dlanor seems to have a bias towards the truth. The only statement is that you can't theorize about it with blue truth. But the witch side can say something like "Kanon escaped from the closed room" in red and Erika will be unable to figure out how because she'll be looking at the wrong person getting out of the wrong room. She doesn't know that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, which means her theories will be unable to address that fact properly. It's the same as having someone play dead. The value is in making the human side assume something that is wrong, because no correct argument can be made based on false assumptions. It will always be possible to come up with red text that denies it.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:35
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idonotlikepeas posted:Well, Dlanor didn't say that the second room's window seal wasn't broken. In fact, she very specifically declined to do so in a very pointed way, because Dlanor seems to have a bias towards the truth. The only statement is that you can't theorize about it with blue truth. But the witch side can say something like "Kanon escaped from the closed room" in red and Erika will be unable to figure out how because she'll be looking at the wrong person getting out of the wrong room. She doesn't know that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, which means her theories will be unable to address that fact properly. They then call logic error and Battler eats a second penalty. Like that's the entire point - if you try to make a trick that's invalid it's a logic error.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:39
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idonotlikepeas posted:She doesn't know that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, which means her theories will be unable to address that fact properly. Doesn't she? We know she had Detective Authority. If there were any clues pointing to it in the last episode, she can't fail to have missed them. It would absolutely have been in character for her to know that but not have judged it relevant and decided to torture Natsuhi instead, because she was easiest to frame. E: Cyouni posted:They then call logic error and Battler eats a second penalty. If you can get someone out of the closed rooms it's by definition not invalid though. If one of the rooms windows really isn't sealed and someone can jump out and take Battler's place, there is no logic error. It might be motivationally insane (as in, why the the hell would anyone ever do this, this a bad story, Battler), but it's not inconsistent. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 20:40
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Cyouni posted:They then call logic error and Battler eats a second penalty. What's invalid about it, though? If Dlanor had said in red that the other window was sealed, that would be a contradiction. But right now, I don't see any red that prevents Shannon from escaping and then turning into Kanon. They aren't allowed to make blue text theories about it, but who needs to? That's Erika's job. The text is trying to confuse us by switching which sides our loyalties lie on. CottonWolf posted:Doesn't she? We know she had Detective Authority. If there were any clues pointing to it in the last episode, she can't fail to have missed them. It would absolutely have been in character for her to know that but not have judged it relevant and decided to torture Natsuhi instead, because she was easiest to frame. True. I can't say with absolute certainty that she doesn't know. I just think she would have been more careful about that everyone else stuff if she did. Also, it's not in the nature of detectives to keep secrets during the parlor scene.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:47
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idonotlikepeas posted:True. I can't say with absolute certainty that she doesn't know. I just think she would have been more careful about that everyone else stuff if she did. Also, it's not in the nature of detectives to keep secrets during the parlor scene. In fact, I was assuming she was taking advantage of knowledge not available to us when she made him use the phrase "everyone else" in the first place.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:50
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CottonWolf posted:Doesn't she? We know she had Detective Authority. If there were any clues pointing to it in the last episode, she can't fail to have missed them. It would absolutely have been in character for her to know that but not have judged it relevant and decided to torture Natsuhi instead, because she was easiest to frame. If one of the windows really wasn't sealed, then the last update turns into a farce. I'm assuming this isn't going to be so stupid as to repeat the exact same thing that was brought up a second ago but go "this time it works because it wasn't dramatically relevant enough last time".
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Jun 22, 2017 20:51
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Cyouni posted:If one of the windows really wasn't sealed, then the last update turns into a farce. I'm assuming this isn't going to be so stupid as to repeat the exact same thing that was brought up a second ago but go "this time it works because it wasn't dramatically relevant enough last time". It depends on the reason. If it is due to identity uncertainty, I'm pretty sure it'll be coupled with that reveal, so it'll make narrative sense in context. Or the solution will be something else entirely. We'll see.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:54
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CottonWolf posted:In fact, I was assuming she was taking advantage of knowledge not available to us when she made him use the phrase "everyone else" in the first place. This has been my assumption as well.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:55
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idonotlikepeas posted:What's invalid about it, though? If Dlanor had said in red that the other window was sealed, that would be a contradiction. But right now, I don't see any red that prevents Shannon from escaping and then turning into Kanon. They aren't allowed to make blue text theories about it, but who needs to? That's Erika's job. The text is trying to confuse us by switching which sides our loyalties lie on. Okay, then let's suggest a few moves into the future. Let's say Shannon=Kanon, and jumps out the seal-broken window to be available to switch with Battler. Let's say then at that point Erika responds in blue with "Shannon and Kanon are the same person, and jumped out the seal-broken window, and switched with Battler". This blue is then denied as incorrect because of narrative convention, despite being 100% accurate. If we're going to be playing a game where the 100% correct answer can be wrong thanks to ~narrative convention~, then why are we playing? CottonWolf posted:It depends on the reason. If it is due to identity uncertainty, I'm pretty sure it'll be coupled with that reveal, so it'll make narrative sense in context. Or the solution will be something else entirely. We'll see. At such point as the game pulls out a "Shannon and Kanon are the same person, and jumped out the seal-broken window, and switched with Battler" and has it judged as valid despite "one of the people in the room with the seal-broken window jumped out of it, and switched with Battler" being denied, because it did not have 'identity uncertainty' explicitly identified despite being correct, I will immediately judge that as being a lovely plot twist for the sake of having a plot twist. I have enough faith in Ryukishi to think that's not going to happen. Edit: Still rereading, in Episode 2, Gohda and Rosa definitely have to be in on Shannon=Kanon if it's true. They all meet up at the chapel, and I forgot Gohda was there. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 21:12
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Just remembered that castling is a chess move, and it could go with the chess metaphor that the Umineko has been describing its game board battle with. Quoting Wikipedia: "Castling is a move in the game of chess involving a player's king and either of the player's original rooks. It is the only move in chess in which a player moves two pieces in the same move, and it is the only move aside from the knight's move where a piece can be said to "jump over" another." It's notable for having a king and a rook end up on opposite sides than where they first started. A good metaphor for Shannon and Kanon in this room where they are side to side. Used to play chess with my folks when I was little. I only saw this move once, and back then we called it rooking. I thought it was an obscure rule, but maybe it's not really and maybe Ryukishi might use it?
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Jun 22, 2017 21:44
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Castling isn't obscure at all
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Jun 22, 2017 21:45
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Cyouni posted:Okay, then let's suggest a few moves into the future. Let's say Shannon=Kanon, and jumps out the seal-broken window to be available to switch with Battler. Let's say then at that point Erika responds in blue with "Shannon and Kanon are the same person, and jumped out the seal-broken window, and switched with Battler". This blue is then denied as incorrect because of narrative convention, despite being 100% accurate. It's not ~narrative convention~ that would prevent Erika from doing this, it's the ridiculous technicality that her own side just set up here. They wouldn't tell her that her blue was incorrect, they would tell her it was invalid/illegal, which is not the same thing. It would be basically the same reason she lost the skirmish over Kinzo in the last episode, despite being 100% correct that he was totally dead.
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Jun 22, 2017 21:45
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Confused Llama posted:It's not ~narrative convention~ that would prevent Erika from doing this, it's the ridiculous technicality that her own side just set up here. They wouldn't tell her that her blue was incorrect, they would tell her it was invalid/illegal, which is not the same thing. It would be basically the same reason she lost the skirmish over Kinzo in the last episode, despite being 100% correct that he was totally dead. Ok, so then we're going to allow red that makes it impossible to actually reason? Then we can throw up our hands at this point, because when we do that, the game then starts cheating. It'd be like dropping red that says "you cannot use any blue that says Kinzo is dead", and then have dead-Kinzo be a major part of the game. Once we start making that move, there's no point in reasoning because then you can't play. You also miss that the whole thing related to Kinzo was due to the fact that another blue truth could be presented where he wasn't dead. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 21:52
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tiistai posted:Castling isn't obscure at all In fact, it's probably one of the only chess terms a layperson would recognize.
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Jun 22, 2017 21:52
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^^^d'oh. addressed belowtiistai posted:Castling isn't obscure at all My only knowledge of chess comes from more than two decades ago. 
EagerSleeper fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 21:52
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The best I can see for Battler is a bluff: say in red that Kanon isn't in the locked room where he's supposed to be, then say in regular text "so he can switch places with me." Basically what Erika did to put Kinzo in Natsuhi's bed. It's pure bluff, hoping the detective side won't ask if the switch is possible, but it worked for Erika.
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Jun 22, 2017 22:02
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Cyouni posted:You also miss that the whole thing related to Kinzo was due to the fact that another blue truth could be presented where he wasn't dead. Only because of a technicality, which was my point. ProfessorProf posted:
Essentially, what you're complaining about here has already happened. We have already seen someone lock off an apparently valid line of play because it would be more dramatic that way.
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Jun 22, 2017 22:03
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"Boom. That's checkmate. Why didn't that girl use that trump card...?"
"I don't UNDERSTAND. All of a sudden, in that instant, use of that trump card became FORBIDDEN. Once we lost that, your victory was GUARANTEED."
"...The Game Master, Lady Lambdadelta, probably interfered."
"That bastard... So in the end, that whole fight was a farce in the palm of Lambdadelta's hand. She made 'us' play out that entire act according to her script."
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Confused Llama posted:Only because of a technicality, which was my point. Use of the red, which is a very different story. You can do tons of stuff if the red isn't allowed. Locking off the correct answer with "you're not allowed to use this blue" is literally just "you're wrong, no matter what you say", and at that point you throw the game out because that's bullshit.
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Jun 22, 2017 22:06
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Cyouni posted:Use of the red, which is a very different story. You can do tons of stuff if the red isn't allowed. Locking off the correct answer with "you're not allowed to use this blue" is literally just "you're wrong, no matter what you say", and at that point you throw the game out because that's bullshit. I don't actually disagree with you there. Locking off blue because of a bureaucratic technicality completely smacks of cheating. However, it's the human side that did it; the proposed use of the red to say that Kanon isn't in the cousins' room isn't cheating on the witch side, it just lets the witch side turn around and use the red to make the human side's cheating bite it in the rear end.
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Jun 22, 2017 22:10
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BurningStone posted:The best I can see for Battler is a bluff: say in red that Kanon isn't in the locked room where he's supposed to be, then say in regular text "so he can switch places with me." Basically what Erika did to put Kinzo in Natsuhi's bed. It's pure bluff, hoping the detective side won't ask if the switch is possible, but it worked for Erika. This might have worked before Erika called out Battler's logic error, but not after. Battler still has to be holding a card in his hand called 'consistent logic.' If he introduces confusion over Kanon's location, it doesn't actually change the fact that the red truths Battler has presented are contradictory. It is the responsibility of the game master to ensure that the game is fair, that there is a correct answer. Even if Battler tricks Erika into thinking there is a correct answer when there isn't, he is still at fault. A logic error is a logic error, the ultimate betrayal of the reader, and it must come to light by the end of the game, resulting in the death of all trust in the author, and the total destruction of the game.
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Jun 23, 2017 00:58
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ZiegeDame posted:This might have worked before Erika called out Battler's logic error, but not after. Battler still has to be holding a card in his hand called 'consistent logic.' If he introduces confusion over Kanon's location, it doesn't actually change the fact that the red truths Battler has presented are contradictory. It is the responsibility of the game master to ensure that the game is fair, that there is a correct answer. Even if Battler tricks Erika into thinking there is a correct answer when there isn't, he is still at fault. A logic error is a logic error, the ultimate betrayal of the reader, and it must come to light by the end of the game, resulting in the death of all trust in the author, and the total destruction of the game. Except that logic errors don't matter until they're called out. Erika had murdered the people long before Battler put himself in that position, but until Erika and Dlanor explained it he was fine. So if he can convince Lambadelta then he has it made. Though it seems like he'd have a hard time contacting her from where he is now.
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Jun 23, 2017 01:22
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Cyouni posted:Ok, so then we're going to allow red that makes it impossible to actually reason? Then we can throw up our hands at this point, because when we do that, the game then starts cheating. It'd be like dropping red that says "you cannot use any blue that says Kinzo is dead", and then have dead-Kinzo be a major part of the game. Once we start making that move, there's no point in reasoning because then you can't play. We don't know why that red exists. I think R07 has earnt enough trust that we shouldn't just jump to the conclusion that that blue is invalid for no reason. It doesn't strike me as likely that he's just going to throw perfectly valid arguments away at this point, so I think the why of why it's invalid has to be important.
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Jun 23, 2017 01:38
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Qrr posted:Except that logic errors don't matter until they're called out. Erika had murdered the people long before Battler put himself in that position, but until Erika and Dlanor explained it he was fine. So if he can convince Lambadelta then he has it made. Though it seems like he'd have a hard time contacting her from where he is now. Yes but Erika called a logic error before even mentioning her murders. So whatever Battler says about Kanon, Erika can still call a logic error, and Lambda will check and find that there is indeed a logic error, and he's right back in the hole. Or are you saying it'd be totally fine if we learned that Ryukishi07 had not actual solution in mind and was just throwing around inconsistent bullshit this whole time with no workable solution? You think that would be an acceptable conclusion to this story?
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Jun 23, 2017 02:38
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Sorry, feeling stupid but I'm a bit confused about how the love battle is going on while the game is halted? How could the "murders" progress while the story can't? Doesn't that seem weird to anyone else?
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Jun 23, 2017 02:54
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witchcore ricepunk posted:Sorry, feeling stupid but I'm a bit confused about how the love battle is going on while the game is halted? How could the "murders" progress while the story can't? Doesn't that seem weird to anyone else? I'm not even sure the murders pertain to this round if Erika was roaming around doing murders and everyone else was in the cousins room. It's a little fishy tbqh.
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Jun 23, 2017 02:56
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CottonWolf posted:We don't know why that red exists. I think R07 has earnt enough trust that we shouldn't just jump to the conclusion that that blue is invalid for no reason. It doesn't strike me as likely that he's just going to throw perfectly valid arguments away at this point, so I think the why of why it's invalid has to be important. I will note that response was in context of "that red's going to be used to deny the correct blue from being used". I agree that the blue isn't invalid for no reason, but my suspicion is more along the lines of "if you intend to use that blue as your answer, give up now", as an implicit denial.
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Jun 23, 2017 03:34
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:I'm not even sure the murders pertain to this round if Erika was roaming around doing murders and everyone else was in the cousins room. It's a little fishy tbqh. My guess is that Battler planned the battle to be the main attraction of this episode, in a sense, which is why the howdunnit aspect is pretty muddled here.
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Jun 23, 2017 05:46
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