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double nine posted:Speaking of, I've literally never used a dive reel. Is it good for anything at all? No
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Jun 22, 2017 10:06
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I heard it can be used to help find your way out of a cave but I've never tried.
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Jun 22, 2017 10:34
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Zesty posted:I heard it can be used to help find your way out of a cave but I've never tried. It clips through the walls and goes straight to your model, so it's almost useless.
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Jun 22, 2017 12:03
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Dyz posted:It clips through the walls and goes straight to your model, so it's almost useless. wow, that's like the opposite of what you want to see happen. Does anyone have good locations with pretty vistas for a base?
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Jun 22, 2017 12:08
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One way to add tension instead of boredom and draw out progression oxygen tank-wise could be to make air pipes and the dive reel more useful so there's a literal lifeline back to the surface you're dependent on until you get more tanks, the minisub etc.
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Jun 22, 2017 12:26
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Those are exactly what you use to get deeper than you should be able to early than the sub. Great for exploring early wrecks. Anyway the air mechanic is great. The removal of the multiple airtank and its stupid hidden slowdown feature (and the fact that most players never realized it works at all) is unambigously an improvement because it was a sloppy mess the way it was before. The top capacity airtank is more than fine since you have vehicles by then, and I would rather have the tension of oxygen management than the moving slower of multiple tanks any day of the week. Unlike the food and water mechanics which are mostly timewasters, the air mechanic is actually fun for most people and introduces a lot of excitement and risk and the battle temptations of staying just a little bit longer and your vision going dark for a moment before you take that deep breath. The optimum path being to trivialize it with multiple tanks ASAP wasnt great.
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Jun 22, 2017 13:14
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A+ patch, all the changes are good. e: Pretty much the only thing that annoys me now is sometimes when near-critical I scarf a bunch of food or drink and before it gets full suddenly I hear "BLOOD LOSS DETECTED" and I drop to half health and half food/drink of my for no apparent reason and I can't find any indication of why it happens on the PDA or on the wiki. I vaguely remember someone saying this is a counter to eating a whole bunch of lantern fruit or something but that's really dumb since it also happens with hydration. Bhodi fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 15:37
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The reel has worked for me. And yeah almost drowning while exploring a wreck while nasty creatures lurk outside is an integral part of the game experience if you ask me. I'm happy to see they added some optimization; I'll have to start a new game and check it out when I'm out of crunch time.
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Jun 22, 2017 16:33
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double nine posted:wow, that's like the opposite of what you want to see happen. I like building underneath the floating island in the grand reef, coming out of one of the cliffsides. You get a lot of the glowy spheres and membrane trees lighting things up, and you can raise jellyrays to light the area up too. Feels pretty zen, and mostly safe other than very rare warpers in the area.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:21
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The first time I tried playing this I thought that the point of the big ship exploding was that it was going to somehow irradiate the entire surface of the planet and force you to retreat progressively deeper underwater until you found a magic macguffin of some sort. I guess that would have been a cool idea but it would have turned the game into more of a roguelike than a survival game.
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Jun 22, 2017 18:31
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If the only tension comes from holding your breath its a poo poo game. But aside from that most healthy people can easily hold their breath as long as a tank, and a well trained person can go 2 mins+ repeatedly without problem. Just call it a goddamn snorkel and put tanks in the game gated till after subs. This game was at one point a fresh take on survival but now its just the same old poo poo.
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Jun 22, 2017 19:24
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DogonCrook posted:If the only tension comes from holding your breath its a poo poo game. But aside from that most healthy people can easily hold their breath as long as a tank, and a well trained person can go 2 mins+ repeatedly without problem. Just call it a goddamn snorkel and put tanks in the game gated till after subs. This game was at one point a fresh take on survival but now its just the same old poo poo. It's not the only source of tension. I don't even know how to continue with that point because you're being obtuse. Time is abstracted. A day cycle is 25 minutes but all the lore and dialogue indicates it's comparable to Earth. Even if it wasn't it's a video game and giving you a IRL hour of air with the current mechanics means air doesn't matter. Zesty fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 19:32
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DogonCrook posted:If the only tension comes from holding your breath its a poo poo game. But aside from that most healthy people can easily hold their breath as long as a tank, and a well trained person can go 2 mins+ repeatedly without problem. Just call it a goddamn snorkel and put tanks in the game gated till after subs. This game was at one point a fresh take on survival but now its just the same old poo poo. 
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Jun 22, 2017 19:40
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Zesty posted:It's not the only source of tension. I don't even know how to continue with that point because you're being obtuse. I dont give a poo poo about any of that dude you cant explain why its fun lol. I just said make it a snorkel because an incredibly unhealthy human can hold his breath for thirty secs so why dont we just call it that. Your character doesnt move faster to compensate for the timescale why would your lungs? But again how is it even fun outside of the first 5 mins?
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Jun 22, 2017 19:52
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is this still the most up to date map for the various biomes and heat sources etc...? Or did they change the map with the latest update?
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Jun 22, 2017 20:01
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DogonCrook posted:I dont give a poo poo about any of that dude you cant explain why its fun lol. I just said make it a snorkel because an incredibly unhealthy human can hold his breath for thirty secs so why dont we just call it that. Your character doesnt move faster to compensate for the timescale why would your lungs? But again how is it even fun outside of the first 5 mins? You're wasting your time asking someone who will seriously exaggerate 'the basic O2 tank should last a minute or two instead of 30 seconds' to 'I want it to last an hour wah wah'. There is nothing to be gained.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:10
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double nine posted:is this still the most up to date map for the various biomes and heat sources etc...? Or did they change the map with the latest update? There might be one or two things missing (pod 7 may have been added or moved?) but that looks right, despite being super tiny.
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Jun 22, 2017 20:29
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Remember those sub things you would get in cereal in the 80's and youd put em in a liter bottle and it would bob up and down in the water endlessly. For me its like that. Some kids were probably entertained by that, but i never thought of them again until this game haha On that note any good recommendations? World of diving looks dead. Theres also a brony ship wreck so its probably a good thing that failed. I think proc gen world was completely scrapped officially. Now im not sure its getting any updates at all but i havent checked in a long time. Abzu is chill as hell and probably up there of fav games and my fav game of all time is any of the fifa series so id pretty much recommend it to everybody. Its short but its perfect that way. I wouldn't have enjoyed it if it were much longer. On sale that game is a steal. Thats all i got. Theres a ww2 uboat game coming that looks like it has pretty in depth crew interactions kinda like an rpg that might be interesting but thats a stretch for this genre and the details ive seen so far are vague on the actual mechanics. Oh actually theres another thats 2d and has steampunk subs does anyone know what that was called and if its out?
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Jun 22, 2017 20:50
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While I don't think abzu quite stands up to the legacy of journey, I do think it's a fantastic 3 hour experience that you should totally play if you want to unwind and feel good
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Jun 22, 2017 21:16
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DogonCrook posted:I dont give a poo poo about any of that dude you cant explain why its fun lol. I just said make it a snorkel because an incredibly unhealthy human can hold his breath for thirty secs so why dont we just call it that. Your character doesnt move faster to compensate for the timescale why would your lungs? But again how is it even fun outside of the first 5 mins? People HAVE been telling you why it's a fun mechanic. You just refuse to acknowledge it. Magmarashi posted:You're wasting your time asking someone who will seriously exaggerate 'the basic O2 tank should last a minute or two instead of 30 seconds' to 'I want it to last an hour wah wah'. There is nothing to be gained. Just ignore his and other's posts that are trying to use "realism" as an argument in favor of air tanks so large that it trivializes oxygen management. Magmarashi posted:Presumably because some people might want the mechanic to work better? If you seemingly progress out of it so quickly as to be an afterthought, why not just start at the better base level and create a more thoughtful limiter using world mechanics instead? "If you're just going to progress out of needing to stress it, why have it at all?"  What is your thoughtful limiter? How would you change things so it's an enjoyable mechanic to you? What's so terrible about a progression of playstyles that reduces early challenges to trivial and introduces new challenges to replace them? All I'm getting from you is that you want the early game to feel like the mid-game. Zesty fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jun 22, 2017 |
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Jun 22, 2017 21:45
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Zesty posted:People HAVE been telling you why it's a fun mechanic. You just refuse to acknowledge it. No nobody has described why its fun to establish a base underwater without scuba tanks. Lol that you think thats a weird complaint.
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Jun 22, 2017 23:19
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DogonCrook posted:No nobody has described why its fun to establish a base underwater without scuba tanks. Lol that you think thats a weird complaint. This is the first time you're bringing up bases. You continue to change the condition of your complaint to suit your narrative. Check your post history. Here are some people who have explained why they think the mechanic is worthwhile. Away all Goats posted:Unlike filling a hunger/thirst bar, managing your oxygen when deep diving is actually fun and interesting tbh. Especially when you need to explore wrecks and can easily get lost in one. The panic of trying to reach the surface before you pass out because you decided to mingle too long is the kind of experience you play videogames for. endlessmonotony posted:Also you could trivialize every bit of combat and never be in any danger with actually infinite oxygen. Most of my deaths come from "I can't stay here or I suffocate, but if I get into the open I get eaten". double nine posted:yeah, there's nothing really wrong with the short air tanks - it's unrealistic and game-y but provides a fun source of tension, esp. when exploring caves or wrecks. DogonCrook posted:I dont give a poo poo about any of that dude you cant explain why its fun lol. To address your new point, I suppose you're encouraged to build in the safe shallows to get started but it's not like constructing your base is particularly time consuming. A room + a solar panel and now you have a... base... to build the rest of it from. Again, by this point you're starting to transition into crafting a Seaglide and Seamoth and oxygen management becomes much more trivial. I wish food and water management could match that.
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Jun 22, 2017 23:34
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Zesty posted:This is the first time you're bringing up bases. You continue to change the condition of your complaint to suit your narrative. Check your post history. But i said to gate it till after the subs when oxygen is trivial, you keep ignoring that. The start should be the same just call it a snorkel and get rid of unpressurized tanks because it doesnt make any sense to carry dead weight the equivalent of a breath of air. There is no technical reason we dont have tanks like this, the reason we dont have them because its fundamentally stupid. Tension for me comes from pushing your limits and theres better ways of acheiving that then rolling your eyes every minute and heading to the surface completely out of danger because you werent stupid enough to suffocate yourself.
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Jun 23, 2017 00:14
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DogonCrook posted:But i said to gate it till after the subs when oxygen is trivial, you keep ignoring that. The start should be the same just call it a snorkel and get rid of unpressurized tanks because it doesnt make any sense to carry dead weight the equivalent of a breath of air. There is no technical reason we dont have tanks like this, the reason we dont have them because its fundamentally stupid. Tension for me comes from pushing your limits and theres better ways of acheiving that then rolling your eyes every minute and heading to the surface completely out of danger because you werent stupid enough to suffocate yourself. Yeah, see, that's a good mindset to have. Ironically, talking up the new situation as "More relevant danger of watching your air" make you even LESS at risk than ever. Because it just encourages you to spend even more time by the closest air supply, rather than use your seaglide to explore far away from your seamoth and barley making it back inside the seamoth as your air runs out out with your pockets stuff full of goodies and a bunch of poo poo scanned. Because you had the encouragement to go just that much farther. A shorter leash on your air, means maintaining a shorter distance from complete safety. The end result is less risk, dressed up as more. But it also potentially wastes a lot more of your time, which is what people seem to mistake for depth. Which doesn't change just by saying "well you get an bigger airtank hours later so  who cares?"
Section Z fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 02:12
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Section Z posted:Yeah, see, that's a good mindset to have. 'lol just cheat scrub'
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Jun 23, 2017 02:53
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Thank goodness the devs and most players don't share your opinions, Goons. The game would get mighty dull. As it is, there are solutions to your problems. Zesty fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 03:16
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Zesty posted:Thank goodness the devs and most players don't share your opinions, Goons. The game would get mighty dull. As it is, there are solutions to your problems. Is double dicks really your justification? Has this thread fallen into FYAD and I hadn't noticed, or something?
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Jun 23, 2017 03:25
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Section Z posted:
Your suggestions: Section Z: More air! Less focus on surviving because it's annoying. DogonCrook: Keep all the current mechanics but redress everything for ~*realism*~. Magmarashi: [be a hostile poo poo without offering any suggestions] Okay, cool. I don't much care for any of those. They really don't seem to follow the spirit of what the devs are trying to do. Your opinions make me more appreciative of the "make the game stupidly harder" folks because they at least aren't looking for a sandbox. Perhaps your efforts are more valuable on the official suggestion forums. I think it's good the game has different priorities as you progress through the game and this change only affects the early game. At the very worst, it's something you progress out of. The same can't be said for hunger/thirst management even into the late game. You also have several console options to deal with it if the game isn't exactly what you want. It's a strange hill to die on.
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Jun 23, 2017 03:44
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Wait did someone seriously argue the mechanic is bad because you progress past it or did I misread because that is the most stupid thing. So we got one person arguing for realism, one against progression, and then Section Z who I think is just arguing the starting time should be longer? But thats coming from someone who has played the game a lot its actually pretty good for a new player who needs that regular very reminder or they would be dying constantly from overextending themselves. The current starting limit puts you in range of juuuuust getting to the surface in time once it gets critical from most anywhere in the shallows GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 03:47
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GlyphGryph posted:Wait did someone seriously argue the mechanic is bad because you progress past it or did I misread because that is the most stupid thing. That's what I saw. Magmarashi posted:Presumably because some people might want the mechanic to work better? If you seemingly progress out of it so quickly as to be an afterthought, why not just start at the better base level and create a more thoughtful limiter using world mechanics instead? Zesty posted:What is your thoughtful limiter? How would you change things so it's an enjoyable mechanic to you? All I'm getting from you is that you want the early game to feel like the mid-game. His next post? Magmarashi posted:'lol just cheat scrub' Being a hostile poo poo in a circlejerk. Flaccid earned. But I am being too hard on Section Z because of the company he keeps. It all just lumps together sometimes. I don't think his ideas are god awful terrible. I just think they don't set the right tone for that portion of the game. Zesty fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 03:56
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GlyphGryph posted:Wait did someone seriously argue the mechanic is bad because you progress past it or did I misread because that is the most stupid thing. Okay, that's actually probably the nicest phrasing to pitch it I've heard. Though in such a case it would be better paired up with overtly telling new players "Hey, stop making water bottles for a second and build an air bladder ASAP". I just started a fresh game to pay extra attention to all the new start of game comments so see if I had simply missed such a pro-tip, but it's still a case of "Only if you notice it in the crafting UI". The little comment of 'unexpected uses' would be most taken as "OH! I can turn this fish into water? Neat!  " not "And also an early game tool rivaling an air tank in importance."The tiny ! marks go away too fast, and people will be busy focusing on their immediate needs like knives and build tools, and are also often the sort of thing a player will find misleading and start ignoring when they pop up on stuff you've only found half the ingredients for. Also- DogonCrook posted:No nobody has described why its fun to establish a base underwater without scuba tanks. Lol that you think thats a weird complaint. Though admittedly my own mindset will usually find "We removed an option, therefore, BETTER!" a questionable claim, even if it comes with sidegrades. Like how I would have preferred the slower default and flanking speeds of the previous Cyclops, because "It's faster!* *Faster could set you on fire via Ghost Heat Just feels too much like some passive aggressive GM logic. I am looking forward to the fact the cyclops active shield will apparently clean off the larva, so that sounds like a step forward in QoL. But then I stop to think "…But won't it drain a chunk of energy to use the shield, and I'll just get MORE larva on me anyways? Is this actually saving me energy, or ironically costing as much or more?" etc. On the flipside, take hollow knight. At first I was super loving salty about death spikes on top of elevators. Then I thought about the situation, and it's secretly there as a MERCY, because you could have gotten stuck in the elevator shaft pre walljump upgrade. While the usual defense of it is "LOL nah man, this game is just hardcore like that, you're a big baby if you don't like it". When explaining the reasons it's HELPFUL overall design would go so much loving farther with frustrated players than swinging your dick on the internet. I want to try and think about these things full term for both access level and "I'm an old hand so I laugh at anybody not making a bee line for the upgrades or One Weird Trick that negate that". Not just immediate gratification to either end of the spectrum of "I'm too casual to want X hardship at all" vs "This thing LOOKS like a challenge to me! Therefore, it MUST be perfect design!" But a lot of the time, that just puts me in "Looks like casual?" edge case land. I'm the weirdo who plays Darksouls and thinks "Man, these estus flasks are GREAT! I wish more games had something as convenient as this to give most players enough rope to keep trying." While some goons are busy bitching that Zelda breath of the wild is too EZ because "Why don't they make healing realtime, like Darksouls?" Section Z fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 04:48
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How are the newest changes to the 'clops? I felt that the combination of damage-able ship + silent running made the changes pointless and irritating. Now I see that you can activate silent running at any time for a limited duration. Can you still go into a permanent, slow moving silent running? I'm still kind of unsure how you're supposed to get past that massive leviathan thing near the lava castle - do you still use silent running in your boat or can it detect silent running now?
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Jun 23, 2017 04:54
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I mean for me the two scariest parts of the ocean are creatures and caves. But caves arent scary here because you cant die in them. You either come well prepared to live forever there, or you cant get deep enough in them to be lost before you run out of air. The fact that the reel doesnt even work and nobody seemed to notice drives that home. Also if they make it so depth diminishes air time like in rl even if simplified it would add some interesting mechanics. Wrecks would have to be a focused trip because going down even briefly you would use up a lot more air. The upside is you could explore near the surface and scout and build your base without worrying about air. You would also have enough air to go into some caves and make bad decisions that get you killed. As it stands you dont have enough time to get into trouble really. The gauge wouldnt tell you how long you have itll tell you how long you have at that depth. The more twist and turns you can rack up the more likely you will lose track and miscalculate.
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Jun 23, 2017 05:11
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DogonCrook posted:I mean for me the two scariest parts of the ocean are creatures and caves. But caves arent scary here because you cant die in them. You either come well prepared to live forever there, or you cant get deep enough in them to be lost before you run out of air. The fact that the reel doesnt even work and nobody seemed to notice drives that home. While I am admittedly hazy if that is the case right now (Due to it being such a one and done that you forget it's effect)? That has been the purpose of the rebreather. The Rebreather removes an air loss rate penalty for swimming past X depth. But it has only ever been a poorly explained in game hardship checkbox, and still ends up feeling like nothing but a checkbox. For example. You can't use the rebreather and have full radiation protection at the same time, as the rad suit needs the helmet... But radiation is generally not a problem at any depth the rebreather works. So why not make the Rad suit double as your rebreather for how much little a difference not being able to use both at the same time makes. I am having some serious hindsight of "Wait, the fact I can't wear a rebreather and radiation helmet at the same time has ZERO DOWNSIDE. Why have people told me it's a Risk Vs Reward choice?" If you are in the prawn suit, why the gently caress do you need a rebreather? If you brought the seamoth, you'll have a readily accessible air supply the whole time. So it ends up mostly something only people who like ultrafins over a seaglide notice, and go without because it takes silver and you're too busy spending that silver on things that actually matter until you finally remember it exists. Section Z fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Jun 23, 2017 |
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Jun 23, 2017 05:20
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Having a rebreather makes a big difference when exploring deep wrecks.
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Jun 23, 2017 05:42
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I think it would be cool if you could restore the abandoned sea bases for a minor resource cost. They are all in fantastic locations and it's a stupid amount of effort to gather the resources to build your own in those places. Being able to pay some titanium and glass to refurbish them for habitation would let me live out my outpost fantasies.
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Jun 23, 2017 10:22
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Honestly, while I do think limited air for exploring wrecks help give some tension to those, I am not a fan of limiting the amount of air at the start or the fact this basically just removes having the option of whether you want to bring multiple tanks and limit your inventory or if you want less air but be able to grab more/move faster. People could decide how much air at the start was comfortable for them and once they got a seamoth could figure out how much air they wanna bring for wrecks. Now the option issn't there anymore and apparently having less choice in a game is a plus now. I am also worried it might suck for new players because the ones who would benefit the most from more air at the start are the ones who might need some extra time getting used to the mechanics and the areas and such. Someone said it would make things easier because people would worry about air more but that kinda feels like saying that increasing the amount of food you need to eat every five minutes would make things easier because then new players would worry about food more. Technically correct but with indicators warning you when you are at dangerously low levels (for both food and oxygen) as well as the fact that someone new might be more conservative with their bar management than someone who knows how fast you move and how far you can dive and such makes me believe that if anything it would just create a bigger hassle for new people. Someone's probably gonna point out that with the old way it worked you could like get the Cyclops before the seamoth if you stacked a million tanks and knew exactly where to dive and where air bubbles where or whatever but I feel that kinda turbonerdery shouldn't be balanced around if it affects people completely new to the game or trying to play the game normally. Then again, I always was way more of a fan of the exploration aspects than the survival parts of the game and changes like those just hurt the exploration part to make the game more hardcore survival-y. Harder to take in the cool fauna and flora even of the shallows or the kelp forest if you barely got time to look around before the oxygen metre yells at you again.
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Jun 23, 2017 16:04
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I dunno it was pretty unintuitive that just having more tanks in your inventory but not "equipped" gave you more air, and it's fairly easy to get to the high capacity tank which gets you to 135 seconds. (I think it needs something that comes from sandstone and that's the worst of it). Previously you'd need multiple tanks to get to that point early on, so I think this is better for new players. And combined with the smaller seaglide I feel like I have 7 more inventory space at all times. I have not seen how much the ultra high capacity tank gives you since I don't have the workbench yet, but it very likely gets you at or past the point where 2 of the biggest tanks used to leave you. So I think the patch is an improvement here. The inventory has always felt tiny to me in this game, and reducing the amount of inventory spent on things I consider mandatory is nice.
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Jun 23, 2017 16:32
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They definitely need to throw the workbench in the player's face because last time I played it's very easy to overlook during play. I wonder if that's part of the new pod7 thing? I haven't played through the game this patch (though I am probably going to do so, now with the addition of the story & additional end-game content)
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Jun 23, 2017 16:37
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Do creatures in alien containment units need to be one-species only to breed? I've got 2 fishbowls with 2x2 critters and the population doesn't change even after extended trips. Also I've played too much dark souls because I'm constantly conflating titanium with titanite and it's starting to annoy me.
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Jun 23, 2017 17:13
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